Jeff Balazs Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 Hi All; I suppose many of us....maybe even all of us?....... that have been through the cooling systems in our trucks have come across this issue. When I began revive my truck after it's long period of inactivity I put a lot of work into getting the cooling system up to snuff. Re-cored the radiator......pulled the old water distribution tube......flushed the block....pulled the head........new welsh plugs......new water pump and distribution tube....etc.etc. Heck I even spent hours with a magnetic wand fishing rusty crap up out of the cooling passages. And I flushed again and again. Did a 50/50 mix of fresh coolant and distilled water. The coolant looks really clean.....or so I thought. A couple of weeks ago we had a hot spell here. I had run the truck for about 20 minutes when I noticed the temp up at about 195 - 200 range. I shut it off right away........and got to thinking about this. I had fitted a 180 thermostat and an electric fan and it was warm that day and most of the time the truck was just sitting and idling. I decided to get a 160 thermostat and see how that worked. It arrived so today when I had a few minutes break I drained the cooling system and pulled the thermostat housing. Wow! There is quite a bit of suspended rust in the system. The coolant looks clean but the thermostat was caked......the inside of the radiator hoses were caked.......and I have to assume the radiator and block have a fair amount in each. I am going to go ahead and flush things as best I can again. Unbelievable.......I would have sworn I had gotten 99% of it out before I ever started it up. Engine has maybe 35 to 40 hours of run time now. Just goes to show you that what you think is good to go........ isn't necessarily so. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBNeal Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 this is why I tell folks to use straight H2O when they first start up an engine and drive it around like that for a few hundred miles in temps above freezing. Ya might think ya get stuff cleaned out, and then SPLAT everything is brown again...also, if something comes loose or malfunctions, all ya lose is water, not that high dollar ethylene glycol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desoto1939 Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 When you put in the antifreeze did you use the yellow or ornage colored or did you use the old green color antifreeze. With our older cars and trucks prior to 1994 you need to use the old style green antifreeze. Also after you get a clean cooling system then install a pint bottle of water pump lube and antirust fluid GUNK makes the prpduct and is available at your NAPA store. Over the years the antirust angents in the Antifreeze breaks down. The nonfreezing point will stay the same but the color of the AF willturn brown like rust because the antirusting has gone away. I have spoken to a Prestone customer service rep and he states to use the old green not the new 100k mile or 5 year stuff. Rich Hartung Desoto1939@aol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don G 1947 Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 I have spoken to a Prestone customer service rep and he states to use the old green not the new 100k mile or 5 year stuff. Rich Hartung Desoto1939@aol.com Is that even available? I believe I have the orange stuff. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 What in the water pump needs lubricating? The bearings are sealed and not in contact with the coolant. The impeller does not make contact with anything but coolant. The rust inhibitor is helpful but in my opinion the water pump lubricant is not required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Balazs Posted February 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 I am using the green stuff and it has only been in it a short while. I have drained the coolant into a big pan and it looks fine...it is not brown or rusty looking. The rust seems to cling to stuff like the inside of hoses but comes off when scrubbed and flushed with water. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave72dt Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 The old conventional green was not compatible with the new extended life anti freeze when it first came out and still may not be. There is however some that is labeled all makes, all models, all colors so now you no longer need to worry if you have green or orange in it. Prestone does all three plus Dex cool and in concentrated or premixed and about every other manufacturer does too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desotodav Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 I can relate well to your story Jeff. Hank tells me that your climate over there in CA is similar to where I live here in Australia. I had my 52 truck engine block flushed and installed new welsh plugs etc when I did that motor up a while back. My biggest issue was that I had the motor built and then let it sit for a couple of years (turning it occasionally) whilst I attended to building the body of the truck. I initially had a lot of problems with rusty/scaley flakes floating around in my cooling system and blocking my radiator. I have since installed a 160° thermostat and I have the radiator flushed out each year at the local radiator shop. I find that the thermostat seems to slow down the water flow allowing it time to cool in the radiator. It is common practice here in the warmer parts of Oz to run a motor without a thermostat, but I am sure glad that I got the right advice and now run a 160° thermostat accordingly. My temperature gauge now rarely rises about 180°. An interesting point on coolant though, my radiator shop tells me that they prefer to run the more modern coolant for allow blocks in my truck motor as they feel that it is better suited to my motor. I have no idea behind this theory, but they were certainly right about adding the thermostat so I am not about to question them on their choice of coolant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgeb4ya Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 Yes, Now they have come out with a clear antifreeze thats compatible with most all types of antifreeze! I don't think so. I never mix different coolants. I say flush the system as best you can and install the regular old silicated green type in our old Mopars. Bob 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 You might find the following link interesting. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ethylene-glycol-d_146.html Straight water transfers heat better than glycol but there are two major advantages of using a glycol mixture. The freezing point lowers and the boiling point raises. The charts found on the above link should be helpful in determining the correct concentration for your climate. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merle Coggins Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) I recently had coolants explained to me like this... The older style Green coolant has additives that coat the surfaces inside your engine's cooling system to protect the metal from corrosion. The newer Extended Life coolant (at least the yellow stuff that Volvo uses) has additives that attack corrosion and attempt to destroy it. If you've been running the old Green stuff and then switch to the newer stuff, or attempt to mix it, the additives in the new coolant will attack the coating left by the old coolant, as if it was corrosion, and will make a real mess. I've seen systems that had "Universal" coolant added that turned the whole cooling system acidic. It ate up the liner seals and etc in the system causing a recently rebuilt engine in need of another overhaul. If you got this coolant on your hands, they would begin to tingle, and if not washed off quickly would begin to burn. NASTY stuff. Merle Edited February 7, 2014 by Merle Coggins 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Balazs Posted February 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 Hey Guy's; I was careful to use the correct old style coolant. I have the system completely drained and will flush the radiator and the block before putting it back together. It is not a big deal......I was just sort of surprised to see so much junk in the system. Not sure if these remaining rust particles caused it to run warm? There was a fair amount that collected on top of the thermostat. Davin; Yes our climate is very similar. The area I live in is known for gum trees which were brought over .......from down under. Warm and very dry.....but no Dingoes.... other than Hank. Sounds like a fairly regular flushing routine is a good idea. I hadn't thought it would be necessary but I can see the wisdom in it now. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desoto1939 Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 What in the water pump needs lubricating? The bearings are sealed and not in contact with the coolant. The impeller does not make contact with anything but coolant. The rust inhibitor is helpful but in my opinion the water pump lubricant is not required. Don: The Product by GUNK which comes is a white plastic container is a water pump rust inhibutor and lubticant. I use it a pint bottle every year in my old 39 desoto to help keep up the rust inhibitors active. According to the label it is also a lubricant for the wate pump. We had theis discussion about a year ago. I am just stating what the product is an particularly the rust inhibutor agents inthe product. You said the bearing wouls not get lubricated but in our old style wp there are two bronse/copper bushings of different sizes that the impelor shaft rotate againt and acutaully the shaft runs throught these two bushings so there is a possibility that the bearing are getting some lubrication contained in the mixture. Look at an expoled view of a water pump. Rich Hartung Desoto1939@aol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBNeal Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 if ya compare the surface area of the entire cooling system with the surface area of the thermostat, and if there is just a little bit of crud in one corner of the head or a blind corner around a cylinder that wasn't removed, once the coolant agitates the system, that little bit of crud will break loose and collect on that thermostat and inside the radiator. I've come to accept that I'll never be able to keep the cooling system 100% clean, and as long as I'm running within the acceptable operating range of the cooling system, then that's good enough for me. One of the things I've learned in manufacturing is that ya have to take into account contamination in hydraulic systems, as they can be a killer if not all factors are taken into account. There is a breakover point with regards to efficiency, as more efficient hydraulic systems tend to be prone to contamination failure. These flatheads I reckon were designed with that in mind, as hydraulic efficiency is lowered to allow a greater rate of contamination. Since the coolant system is not filtered, there is a service interval suggested to remove contamination from the system. On a side note, I went through the coolant system in my '02 CTD at 125k when I noticed the operating temperature was not at 195 in the summer. A new thermostat, all new hoses, rad.cap and a coolant system flush was followed with driving on the highway for a couple of weeks with straight H2O, flushing again, running another couple of weeks with H20 & flush, then going 50/50 glycol. After a month, I noticed there was a little crud on the rad.cap, and after 2 years and nearly 30k more on the odometer, the rad.cap isn't much dirtier and there is a little crud in the radiator...all acceptable as the operating temperature is right where it needs to be, especially in the summer while hauling a heavy load on the highway with the AC blowing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John-T-53 Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 Jeff: Might want to knock the plugs out of the block again and get in there with a good stream of water to flush any remaining rust scales out. There's a lot that can accumulate at the bottom the water jacket around the cylinders, especially towards the back. Put your hose nozzle in the heater hose that connects to the head and hit that good, too. Did you pull your water distribution tube out previously? If your t-stat was caked, it might be a good idea to pull the radiator and flush it from the bottom to the top. Perhaps even use a flush aid since you had so much debris in there. The next time I do a rebuilt, I've contemplated filling the block with "Evaporust" for a few days and letting it dissolve all the rust - the product is claimed to be non-acidic, and leaves metal surfaces bare after a good soak. I have not tried it yet myself, but would seem like a good method for de-rusting impossible places to reach by mechanical means. Anybody ever use this stuff? Green coolant is what we should use. Nothing else. 50/50 and no more than 70% strength. As said above, the H2O is what does the work of transferring heat energy, not the coolant. With a stronger solution, you have less cooling efficiency. Distilled H20 is an added plus, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
48Dodger Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 What in the water pump needs lubricating? The bearings are sealed and not in contact with the coolant. The impeller does not make contact with anything but coolant. The rust inhibitor is helpful but in my opinion the water pump lubricant is not required. Luburcant is for the water pump SEAL....not the bearings. The chems in the coolant eat the seal up and expose it to the water etc. without it. 48D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Balazs Posted February 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 Ok so I flushed the radiator into a 20 gallon pan about 10 times. Got a lot of stuff out.......the last few runs it became cleaner and cleaner until there was almost no rust particles. Flushed the block too. Then I reassembled and fitted a 160 thermostat.......now it runs at 160/165 so it is good to go for the time being. I think I will do another flush in 3 or 4 months. I will probably pull the welsh plugs then. That ought to be good enough to take care of this. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NiftyFifty Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 Had a similar issue after I rebuilt my 251, flushed and scrubbed and actually paid to have my block dunked in the end after they found the cam bearings were no good anyway, and after I blew the head gasket at the end of that first season with that motor I drained everything out and found a lot of crap in the system. My rad was also dunked as it needed a touch up at the rad shop so really should have been nowhere to hide. The heater core as I recall had to be done too, it had a pin hole in the tank too. I just use whatever's cheap, but if your water is high in minerals it can cause some of these issues on its own, and my water has rust in it anyway, so I expect that was a part of my issue. The whole trucks coming apart again except for the engine this summer, so it will get new coolant and water again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanksB3B Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 I did not know about green vs. yelow anti freeze till now and have always run Prestone Yellow. I anticipate changing my radiator and water pump soon What should I do to make the transition to green ? Can someone please recommend the best way to flush my block out. Thanks, (What's a Dingo to do), Hank P.S Jeff what Permatex product did you use on the water pump install. Also what grade bolts should I use. Any one know what size/thread/length they are ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkoh Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 (edited) Some of the additives in the newer stuff have to do with the use of aluminum in modern day systems. Aluminum being more chemically reactive than iron or brass, there were issues with it corroding away. We first ran into issues with the Corvettes. They were one of the first cars to use aluminum in their radiators. Now about every car or truck uses it. I recently installed a 360 v8 in a customers 51 Pilot House. It was a junk yard engine and had been sitting for some time. One of the freeze plugs was punctured on each side, I assume by the wrecking yard to make sure it did not freeze. Since the others were not in great shape and the engine was on the floor, we decided to change all of them to brass. I could not believe the sediment that came out. Literally piles of rust, white crusty particles and what appeared to be core sand?. We ended up using a shop vacuum to suck out the junk while scraping with a wire through the freeze plug holes. I bet this junk accounted for a couple pints of coolant volume lost. And the water pump leaked as soon as it got coolant in it. That was before we ever fired the engine. It seems OK for now, but will need a few flushings to get it really cleaned and then it should probably have annual flushing. In my opinion. the hot tank and possibly the use of some acid to remove the scale is the only real way to clean the block and head(s) with water jackets out properly. Edited February 8, 2014 by clarkoh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Balazs Posted February 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 Hank; From one old dingo to another......I think a tube of Permatex #2 belongs in every tool kit. I use it on sealing surfaces and on any threaded fasteners that could leak like these water pump bolts. As far as I am concerned it is the cat's meow. I don't recall what length the fasteners are but I matched up some grade 8 bolts to the originals. I suppose this was inevitable. Of all the issues my truck had when I got it the cooling system was probably in the nastiest shape. I don't know how long it sat with water in it.......but many years. I will keep after it from here out. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young Ed Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 Hank; From one old dingo to another......I think a tube of Permatex #2 belongs in every tool kit. I use it on sealing surfaces and on any threaded fasteners that could leak like these water pump bolts. As far as I am concerned it is the cat's meow. Agreed. I've used that on both my flatheads and other projects too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanksB3B Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 Jeff you missed my P.S. Question two posts above. Opinion. Any one know the sizes of all water pump bolts? (Don't all volunteer at the same time). Thanks, Hank I'd like your Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TodFitch Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 Jeff you missed my P.S. Question two posts above. Opinion. Any one know the sizes of all water pump bolts? (Don't all volunteer at the same time). Thanks, Hank I'd like your The '33 Plymouth used studs instead of bolts, but I think the block holes are the same size and thread as later engines. Here is a list of the studs used for 33 and you can follow the links on the studs to the description of what they are. Looks like it is 3/8-16 for the block. . . http://www.ply33.com/Parts/group7#600794 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NiftyFifty Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 Jeff you missed my P.S. Question two posts above. Opinion. Any one know the sizes of all water pump bolts? (Don't all volunteer at the same time). Thanks, Hank I'd like your Can't recall 100% but I changed every bolt in my engine and I didn't need any special sizing or thread, I'm sure their a 3/8" by 2 1/4 or 1/2?? Something you can definitely get at the hardware store, only difference for me was I used coated grade 8's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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