POC President elect participating on POC Forum, lively discussion on Modified cars going on

[greg g]

I would encourage folks from this forum to check out the discussion and to add their comments regarding engine mods disc brakes,and other non factory items, and how they are viewed by the club and how they may be judged if those changes are considered by the POC constitution and judging regimen.   The newly elected president Larry Neusch, seems to be leaning toward making changes that would allow certain updates with out major point deductions.  Currently a non stock engine as in a P code or a D or T or I engine in a Plymouth gets a 0 as looses any judging points for engine and engine compartment.

 

Hopefully you hot rod folks will add to the discussion for more leniency in judging.  The key phrase might be that such changes enhance the preservation, and enjoyment of the Marque. 

[desoto1939]

Larry and I have been presenting seminars at the Annual AACA meeting that is held in Philadelphia every February.  We spoke the other night about what LArry is trying to propose to the POC board of directors.  Since I own a Desoto and a pre war one, I am very limited in having any opportunity to run with any marque club.  In the greater Philadelphia area we really do not have any active Desoto Club, there is a local National Desoto Chapter, but they also have limited runs. 

 

Larry is trying to have a chnage to permit the Mopar sister and brother cars and trucks to participate with the POC.  The POC was a club that was originally setup to preserve the Plymouth marque and they were setup to  run and judge Plymouths that had 100% matching number cars espcially if you were going to their annual car show and wanted your car to be judged, very similar to what the AACA format is for judging back to originality.

 

PArt of the problem is now that the plymouth line is no longer being made, so no more new cars that can come into the fold. The older cars, and when I say this I mean the Prewar cars are now coming out, and we can all atest to this at the local shows.  The Older cars were driven by the guys that ususually had one of these when they we a young guy and wanted to relive their youth.  These gentleman are getting to the point they can not drive the cars becasue of age, the speeds on the highways and other factor's.

The guys that are now restoring the after wwII cars are now wanting to make modifications to the cars such as disk brakes, speed equipment and more modern updates to make the cars some what more road reliable, but the POC being the purist do not want to accept these changes.

The POC, needs to make some chnages to keep the club alive and to help bring in the new members.  The main objective should be to preserve the Ply line and also the other members of the MoPar line which include Desoto, Dodge, Dodge Truck, Chrysler, Hudson, AMC,etc.

 

Any fellow Mopar marque shoudl be permitted to the join the POC as a member and alo run with the club because in some areas of the country there only might be a local POC club, but as a Desoto owner I currently do not feel confortable running with the POC club. I states this becasue I would be the non POC mmarque on their run, but LArry is trying to make the chnages so that any MoPAr car is welcome to run with them.

 

The idea is that no matter which marque you have the basic engine, frame, and working components of the MoPar marque cars/trucks have the same baisic working components.

 

I am very supportive of what Larry is trying to do and I would suggest that we all try to back and support Larry in his endevors.  This is going to take some time to turn the tide with the odl regime but this can happen.

 

All thoughts and ideas are welcome to be posted in a reply to this forum or even back to me as a PM.

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[greg g]

This sounds a lot like the Walter P Chrylser restorers club.  If you have not been to one of their events I would encourage you to attend.   As far as the POC, seems to me that there are more in memoriam listings than new members.  I have seen the way younger members are treated and it hasn't been good. When at the meet in Maryland a few years back some of us were referred to as a bunch of hippies and subversives because we were having a tailgate party in the parking lot instead of enjoying the "Hospitality Suite" (read juice boxes and store bought cookies) set up by the chapters members.  Other than the Plymouth Bulletin which is now available on line, unless you have an active local chapter nearby, benefits of membership are slight.

[desoto1939]

Greg:

 

I had been a member of the WPC, but again this was just a newsleter for me since there was no local club that was active in my regional area around Philadelphia.  What we are all seeing is that the local antique car clubs are getting older and they are not getting any newer members. Therefore the club activities are starting to die, local runs and events.  Since we are all having issue with getting the newer members Larry is trying to open the doors to get the exiting mopar owners involved to keep the hobby going forward. 

 

Yes the POC is made of some very staunch, set in the wool die hard, prueist members.  But if they do not change then they will see their club slowly die away.  The world of the antique car/truck hobby is changing very quickly and I have seen this over the past 25 years that I have been involved in the hobby.  Take a look at the NDC Natioanl DeSoto Club.  The online webpage is basically a shell of what it was in the past.

 

There isa local NCPC National Chrysler Product Club that i might join to see if they have anything          going with their club.  I can remeber when the AACA would not permit a Drivers Class on the NAtioanl Meets.  Now they permit this class at Hershey, HAve also maded the HPOC Historic Preservatiion of Original Condition class to permit the owners with not fully resorted cars to exhibit their car on the show field.  They realized that no everyone has the dollars to do a 100 point car and that the real hobby is being made up of the guys that have drivers andattend local events.

When you go to Hershey in the fall yes there are the 100 pointers but most are owned by big buc guys.  Then look at how many people attend the event that are the regular guys trying to restorea vehicle, More doing this then really showing their cars/trucks.  Consider 8-10 thousend vendors andthen how many lookers from across the US and Europe.

This shows where the hobby is going.

 

I hope Larry can make some inroads but i feel he will run into alot of people that are set in their ways. When I hosted teh Nat Desoto Convention back in 1998 we made changes to show field to permit Modified and Hotrod Desotos to be shown on the field. We gave each participant all of the same information and dash placques, etc but they could not recive any awards.  But they were invited to show becasue we felt that at least the car was saved from the crusher and the vehcile body style and some of the original features were being displayed.  ALso some the neat things that these guys were doing was very impressive.

Have to have an open mind as the hobby changes so see what is innovative and also safety changes for our cars.  If the POC allows seat belts or third braking lights then they really are not pureist but have chnaged becasue the AACA has made this change.

 

 

Rich Hartung

[Frank Elder]

Why do you have to belong to a "club" to enjoy your car....? Do you need validation...do you feel safer running with the herd?

[blucarsdn]

I took a look at the POC forum, even added a comment.. It was refeshing that there were so many comments.. Will anything change?? Not as long as many of the members to the POC still invision themselfs as being the Eastern U.S. "four cylinder club".. Bill

[desoto1939]

Why do you have to belong to a "club" to enjoy your car....? Do you need validation...do you feel safer running with the herd?

 

Frank, I also enjoy my car when driving to an event but I like to be with other people in a local area that have the same type of hobby. I as a personer prefer to be with a group of friends so that you can exchnage ideas and this also helps when you have a problem with your car.  I have seen some clubs that are very active and other that are not active.  The idea of of a club is to bring togehter a group of people with the same aspirations, to enjoy each other friendships, travel as a group to events.  We were not put on the earth to be loners. 

 

As humans were all have an intrinsick need to be with people and this includes our wifes even thought we joke about this. Just go spend a whole week in your house alone, by yourself without anyone communicating to you it is very strange if you like that situation but for me I prefer to be with other people and to enjoy their company.

 

I have driven my 39 Desoto with my wife and 9 month old child from Valley Forge PA to the National Desoto Convnetion that was held at the White Post restoration facility and then drove the car back home.  So no I am not afraid to go alone but driving with other old cars is more fun and people then give you more room on the highway when in a group.

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[Frank Elder]

Frank, I also enjoy my car when driving to an event but I like to be with other people in a local area that have the same type of hobby. I as a personer prefer to be with a group of friends so that you can exchnage ideas and this also helps when you have a problem with your car.  I have seen some clubs that are very active and other that are not active.  The idea of of a club is to bring togehter a group of people with the same aspirations, to enjoy each other friendships, travel as a group to events.  We were not put on the earth to be loners. 

 

As humans were all have an intrinsick need to be with people and this includes our wifes even thought we joke about this. Just go spend a whole week in your house alone, by yourself without anyone communicating to you it is very strange if you like that situation but for me I prefer to be with other people and to enjoy their company.

 

I have driven my 39 Desoto with my wife and 9 month old child from Valley Forge PA to the National Desoto Convnetion that was held at the White Post restoration facility and then drove the car back home.  So no I am not afraid to go alone but driving with other old cars is more fun and people then give you more room on the highway when in a group.

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

I can see your point......I grew up secluded from people and we made it to "town" once every month or so....so I miss being able to get shut off from humanity...really not that possible anymore in this day and age of total communication unless you go off the grid.

[bbbbbb99]

Really don't even feel like I have the right to comment, ....but I will.

 

If the intent of the club is to preserve "stock" cars then they should stick with that. AACA memebers can be a bit over the top and almost militant against "Rodders" or "modifiers". When I joined their forum I was chastised by one member about my intentions for my car which is solid, but is missing so many parts that a full resoration would cost me an arm and a leg. I'm sorry, but rescuing a 36 Dodge Coupe from becoming a cookie cutter SBC/drivetrain rod should win me points enough in my mind.

 

If POC is like that then they should stay that way.

 

I do think that AACA and other "restorer" clubs could benefit from holding events where the "modifiers" are welcomed too.

 

And I'm with Frank as far as needing to be part of a club, but I'm a bit anti-social anyway

Edited January 9, 2014 by bbbbbb99

[Don Coatney]

Having read the entire thread on the POC forum and this thread one big thing stands out to me. Judging.

 

I personally built my car for me to suit my needs and desires. My car is the only trophy I want to own by my judgment. Why is having your vehicle judged by others such a big issue? Can you not judge your own accomplishments? And why is it that the judging has a reflection on ones bank account and not on originality? I guarantee that in any old car Club a totally unmolested original car as it left the factory will not win the trophy. The trophy will go to the person who spent  the most on restoration and that term in itself is so abused that it has lost its meaning.

 

I have attended a couple of POC national meets. I did not go to have my car judged but for the fellowship of many friends. And I have driven my car well over 1000 miles from home attending these fellowship functions. How many Car Club trophy wieners can make that statement?

[TodFitch]

I have attended a couple of POC national meets. I did not go to have my car judged but for the fellowship of many friends. And I have driven my car well over 1000 miles from home attending these fellowship functions. How many Car Club trophy wieners can make that statement?

Not quite. Furtherest for me was a bit over 900 miles from home. I did get judged pretty highly at one POC national I drove it to (I figure the judges were blind that day) so I haven't bothered to have it judged since.

[Young Ed]

Larry is trying to have a chnage to permit the Mopar sister and brother cars and trucks to participate with the POC.  The POC was a club that was originally setup to preserve the Plymouth marque and they were setup to  run and judge Plymouths that had 100% matching number cars espcially if you were going to their annual car show and wanted your car to be judged, very similar to what the AACA format is for judging back to originality.

 

I believe that in some ways that is already allowed. The only requirement to join the POC besides paying the dues is an enjoyment of plymouths. One does not have to own one. I joined before I owned one. I was never chastised for bringing my dodge pickup on a tour. I still do it from time to time. I'm sure different local clubs are different but no one in the MN group cares. I can think of a few national meets where members brought other DPCD makes and even Merle attended a couple with his dodge truck and I don't believe he belongs to POC.

[Adam H P15 D30]

It's interesting watching all the purist clubs die off and the hot rod clubs grow. Hummmm...... Maybe they are taking notice. I have also been mistreated by the purist clubs so if they fizzle away it won't bother me a bit. Or maybe they will lower their noses a bit to survive.

[Redmond49]

The plan described at the top of the thread sounds essentially like an informal consolidation of the POC with the WPC club - having DeSoto clubs and Plymouth clubs seems sort of redundant when the vehicles share so much in their construction. I'm not sure if younger generations are "joiners" the way folks of previous generations were. And the internet provides a more informal way of creating a community that flows, rather than a community tied to set meetings on set days in set places. I also wonder if the car hobby hasn't just moved on...nowadays, if you have some money to burn and you want to relive your youth or have that car you wanted as a kid, it's more likely to be an old BMW 3-series or that cool European car you couldn't have as a kid but that you can import now that its more than 25 years old and you can actually afford it. I work at a large company that has it's own car show each fall to raise money for charity, and at this year's car show there were probably 140 cars. One "classic" that was a standout was the early 80's Renault 5 with the V8 in the back seat. There were lots of tricked out modern cars with computer systems in the trunk and lights under the rocker panels. I found a kindred spirit though, at the show - a guy younger than me was there with his fedora and his 41 LaSalle that he had bought from the widow of a car collector who had passed. He told me how he took the car last summer to a car show where the previous owners family was also in attendance, and they practically made him part of the family. He adopted the car and in doing so forged a new connection with the family who had the car before. The guy I bought my car from in October invited me to keep in touch; the car I bought was his dad's and had a lot of sentimental value. It seems like there are a lot of opportunities there to create new connections.

 

That's also why I joined my local Chrysler club. At 43, I'm by far the youngest member. The group is actively seeking out new members by leaving cards on old Mopars and talking to old Mopar drivers they meet at the supermarket or on the state ferries. At my first meeting, an older gentleman told me that if I needed a new block, he'd be happy to give me one from his collection of four. They gave me a free club hat to make me feel welcome. They are a great source of local contacts too - the president owns a body shop, they know the local experts and the good shops, and they have a lifetime of information to share. The local group seems happy to have you, whatever condition your car is in. For me, it's also a good way to get out of the bubble of people I usually interact with, most of whom I know through work and all of them involved in high tech. This forum is great, but it's also fun to have some face to face time with other car folks

[Frank Elder]

It's interesting watching all the purist clubs die off and the hot rod clubs grow. Hummmm...... Maybe they are taking notice. I have also been mistreated by the purist clubs so if they fizzle away it won't bother me a bit. Or maybe they will lower their noses a bit to survive.

 The older owners will die off while still shaking their fists at the newer generation for ruining their cars, some of these cars will be maintained by sons or daughters in a purer form, and others will be sold off and modified......it is a long slow process for acceptance.

[Plymouthy Adams]

that purist who has a (so-called) unmodified car and shakes the fist at the new guy who is slightly improved in areas of safety and such is the very same guy who will find a way to shake his fist should the new guy show up with a car slightly better than the 'good ole boys' who are the backbone so...you not going to fit in either way...its a click with established pecking order..

[OldDad67]

 The older owners will die off while still shaking their fists at the newer generation for ruining their cars, some of these cars will be maintained by sons or daughters in a purer form, and others will be sold off and modified......it is a long slow process for acceptance.

I use to belong to NCRS (National Corvette Restorers Society) but got tied of all the "Experts" getting in peoples faces over what was correct on the car in their minds. At one meet an owner got all over the judges for not giving him full credit for an item on his car that didn't meet the judging manual. The only reason he got upset at the judges was because he wanted a higher score so he could sell his car for more money. I don't judge cars anymore and if someone doesn't like my car I really don't care, I build it for my satisfaction. It's mine to enjoy. Even my sbc powered P15 with Packard valve covers and Muncie 4 speed.  Hope I don't offend anyone.    

[White Spyder]

I may be different but I think there is a place for the 100% original car in certain judged events.keeping a car as it came off the line is a challenge and the owner should be judged higher than a "resto-mod"   But, this should be a category. Cars placed in the original restored field should have deductions for non-original upgrades.  I also think the over restored car should have deductions in judged events.  

 

I see and understand the fact that people my age want the muscle cars of their youth but there are those of us that appreciate all types of cars.  I own cars from the '40's, '60's '70's and '80's as collectors and belong to an open local car club with over 300 members.  At our annual 'Big" show we have multiple categories from  original to tricked out, antique to modern muscle.  I enjoy them all and appreciate the vision and work that the owners invest in their vehicles.

Edited January 10, 2014 by White Spyder

[jcmiller]

I may be different but I think there is a place for the 100% original car in certain judged events.keeping a car as it came off the line is a challenge and the owner should be judged higher than a "resto-mod"   But, this should be a category. Cars placed in the original restored field should have deductions for non-original upgrades.  I also think the over restored car should have deductions in judged events.  

 

 

I agree with this.

 

Also, the Portland chapter of the POC doesn't resemble the descriptions above of the POC.  I think the chapter president just put a slant 6 in his P15 and there is a Dodge pictured on the website under members' cars.  I have noticed that the national monthly magazine seems weighted toward the 4-cylinder cars.

[greg g]

A major item came up with the Experts at the Vermont POC meet telling me my steering wheel, dash board and door garnishes, door panel trim  and escutcheons were incorrect.  When I asked why I was shown a car that was correct.  OK!! except for the "correct" car was a Special Deluxe and mine if not a Special Deluxe.  Now I know judges are volunteers for the most part but are schooled prior to judging are are supposed to be monitored by an official who supposedly knows what is up with the category he is overseeing. Finally got the chief judge to reluctantly agree that a mistake had been made, and the score was adjusted to reflect the the so called infractions.  I guess if you're gonna judge to factory standard you need to know the standard for all models the factory produced.

 

 Since that meet I have displayed my car at 3 or 4 POC meets with a Do Not Judge placard.  Like others have mentioned, I attend these events for the comradely of folks I have met along the way whose interest is in the cars as they are and not how they should be.  Seems where ever the non factory cars go, they always draw the most interest and questions if not proper ticks on a scoring sheet.  And getting the Q tip wielding purist's boxers in a bunch is fun also.  But I am encouraged that the ice may be breaking of the strictly factory system of official approval.