Fuel injection for our flat head sixes?

[austinsailor]

I've got the idea I'd like to put fuel injection on one of our flatheads. I realize that to have multiport injection you'd need 6 ports, and I might use one of my 30" big truck sixes with 12 ports to get there.

 

I've been searching the web to understand what it takes and most of what I see involves sensors on the exhaust, crankshaft  position sensors, pressure sensors in the manifold and more,  engine control computers and a lot of programming. They had fuel injection long before they had engine control computers, and I don't think it is reasonable to expect to develop all the new programs for this motor.

 

I haven't located any info on simpler systems that might be practical for something like this, but I know it's done on other motors, and in another post, Earl Edgerton's fuel injected 6 is mentioned.

 

So, my questions would be:

 

1. Does anyone know of info on the web that I could get a beginning knowledge of what it takes? 

2. Better yet, a simple outline of what it takes so I even know what to look for?

3. Are there setups sold aftermarket that would work on our motors?

 

Basically, it needs something to open and close the injector. Somewhere it has to get the timing information to know when, and width information to know how long. How did they do this before all the complicated electronics, or did they even have anything comparable back then?

 

Gene 

[Dave72dt]

There were any number of companies that did fuel injection.. Diesels have run them for years with mechanical pumps, GM has had them on a number of cars since the early 60's at least, Enderle and Hilborn for race apps

[chopt50wgn]

I think it would be much easier to just put on one of the fuel injected system out there now like FAST, MSD, Holley, or Edelbrock. I don't know much about flatties but your idea is very good but I think you may run into lots of time in development not to mention the money.

[glasspacks]

Some time ago I read an article about someone fitting fuel injection to his sland 6.  I am sure it's still on the web.  Another alternative might be throttle body injection, less fabrication and works well enough.

Cheers,

Bob.

[41/53dodges]

Here's a guy with TBI on a flathead, I'm going to take that route once I accumulate the parts! that would be so helpful with my turbo.

http://schaners.com/fargo/brakesinjection.htm

[48Dodger]

Engine load is the biggest factor. And to do that you need to run a program with the displacement and cam profile. Basically you need to let your sensors know what you are looking for under different load conditions. ALL load conditions. There are different program types as well that use different sensors as the "dominant" sensor.....again, based on what you want or need from your motor. So pick a program type...program the system...and then start working on the fuel management program.

 

I wouldn't go with vintage direct injection or pump injection.....not made for daily drivers. I would stick to the present, get your laptop up and running and start inputting data. 

 

48D

[Dave72dt]

Engine load is the biggest factor. And to do that you need to run a program with the displacement and cam profile. Basically you need to let your sensors know what you are looking for under different load conditions. ALL load conditions. There are different program types as well that use different sensors as the "dominant" sensor.....again, based on what you want or need from your motor. So pick a program type...program the system...and then start working on the fuel management program.

 

I wouldn't go with vintage direct injection or pump injection.....not made for daily drivers. I would stick to the present, get your laptop up and running and start inputting data. 

 

48D

You wouldn't have a list of programs available for fuel management, by chance, would you?  I suspect some engine dyno time would be required to be accurate with  input data.

[Frank Elder]

Mega squirt build/program it yourself injection....?

[41/53dodges]

Also depends on how the system is set up. They will always have their defaults, but if lne brings o2 sensors and all that stuff the ecu can learn on its own and calculate what to do. Mecanical however...

[bskaga]

Good afternoon.
This applies to your subject and may become interesting to you as a story.
The USSR bought in the late 1930s a license for the production of engines a flat head with a volume of 218 cubic inches. Here is a video showing the engine GAZ-11 (GAZ-11), released in June 1942 during World War II. It is well preserved, due to the fact that it lay deep in the swamp, where there was no oxygen access for its oxidation.
https://youtu.be/i0_qq_5PZE8
It was also well restored. In the United States, the engine was put mainly on cars, but the leadership of the Soviet plant initially saw it as a good engine for low-capacity trucks, since it had good torque at low engine speeds. Therefore, during the war, it was installed on light tanks and even aircraft. In the USSR, the engine underwent modernization during mass production at the plant.
The main difference from the American engine was that the chain drive of the gas distribution mechanism was replaced with one textolite gear. The plant considered that this would make this unit more reliable in operation and lead to a simpler production process.
After the Second World War, the engine began to be installed on a gas-51 truck. There was also a change in the location of the holes for spark plugs, a change in the order of the windows of the inlet and outlet openings of the manifolds.
In the 1960s, the truck GAZ-51 underwent modernization and became the truck GAZ-52. Basically, the changes affected the installation of a more comfortable cabin and also a small modernization of the engine.
Also at this time, the engine was GAZ-51 put on front loaders. The engine was manufactured and mass-installed on trucks until the mid-1990s.
This video presents a quick-start conversion of the engine to an injection power system from a Russian car with upgraded firmware for six-cylinder engines.
https://youtu.be/lpkbbPi8Rsk
If interesting, I can give some questions in more detail.

 

Edited April 11, 2021 by bskaga

[bskaga]

For simplicity, drills have been made on the crankshaft. According to them, the electronic control unit determines the marks 60-2 using an induction sensor.

[MBSoPaB]

Bringing some life back to the EFI conversation. 

 

Background?

• gotta draw the line somewhere, and for me, I've chosen to focus on the 25" long engines. Well, to say that another way, working on both 23" and 25" engines, could be spreading myself thin, so, focus on one or the other, and I do believe the term 'go big or go home' applies, so I chose the 25" ones. Relevance to the EFI discussion? Sure; displacement, 265 cubes.  

• And, this results in some challenges for an intake manifold (again, self inflicted challenges), as I wished to try my hand at a dual single barrel intake. Factory dual, mid fifties from a stationary engine. My example I'm expecting to utilize a factory balance tube to facilitate some EFI and PCV stuff.

• 12 volt. No intentions of going back to 6 volt. None. Trying to reduce those self inflicted complications.

• Distributor - converted over to the electronic Slant Six, triggering a GM four-pin HEI module and air core coil. Sure, it's stand-alone, and doesn't come into the discussion on EFI, well not at the beginning, anyway, but it can come up in later abilities for some of the EFI ECM units to control timing. 

• it's a background section, right? Well, I've put carbs on fuel injected vehicles, I've put fuel injection on carbureted vehicles. Just like a kid with a toybox full of disassembled toys, I enjoy the process of disassembly, and the associated learning, more than the assembly process and it's finer nuances. **Danger!** This can mean a high probability of not finishing projects! Actually, my timetable is wide open on this one, so even itty bitty, incremental, slow advances are still part of the path forward, and I'll take them all as a win.

 

Objective:

• turn-key EFI on a long block Chrysler flathead six engine.

• doesn't have to be a flame throwing torque monster for the drag strips or tractor pulls, but it does have to be ready to start when I turn the key, whether it be getting groceries or visiting fellow motorheads.

 

Side objectives:

• tunability 

• durability 

• use off the shelf products when possible, to facilitate in-field repairs

• something that's cost effective on the wallet. I don't have to be cheap, or miserly if it negatively effects the outcome, but hey, money IS a limiting factor in this build.

 

Let's face it - fuel injection isn't a new thing anymore. Sure, it's evolving, and so it should, being part of the production lineup even for MoPar since the 1958 model year. Granted, most of those fuel injection cars immediately came back and we're fitted with carburetors, even MoPar had the wherewithal to give fuel injection a go.  

In Electronic Fuel Injection (EFI), of course there's going to be plateaus in its evolution and use. Some relevant ones here are the GM throttle body EFI systems of the 1980's, soldiering on into the mid 1990's, and similar products being seen under the hoods of nearly all major passenger vehicle manufacturers of that time. And it evolved; tuned port, multiport, sequential multiport, direct injection..., and thankfully for today's task we don't have to go further down those paths.

Let's just focus on throttle body injection (TBI), shall we?

 

Throttle bodies:

Thanks to a miserly pocketbook, and the proportionate abundance, the decision was made to stick with the Rochester 700 series throttle bodies. A pair of them, in particular, from the Iron Duke 4-cylinder GM product lineup in the late 1980's.

A pair of diagonal cutters, 17mm wrenches, and 10mm socketry was able to free a couple candidates from their u-pull donor carcasses, while only liberating a Ulysses Grant from my wallet. There are multiple designs, so be observant to get matching throttle bodies, if possible.

Sure, I looked at the MoPar counterpart, same era, similar pathway to success, but raw materials was a challenge.

Sure, I looked at fresh throttle bodies, Weber. Borla. Sherry Berg. Maybe on the next iteration with individual throttle bodies (ITB), but for today's purpose, the all in one aspect of the Rochester 700 won out over the complications needing ironed out from these options.

Back to the Rochester 700 series; these throttle bodies come with the following:

• throttle position sensor

• idle air control

• replaceable single electronic fuel injector 

• fuel pressure regulator (spring type)

All of this in one tidy little unit.

To mount up the throttle bodies, Hamilton Fuel Injection makes some neat-o aluminum adapters to bolt up the GM/Rochester 700 to our 2-15/16 SAE bolt pattern intake manifolds.

As I don't have access, time or patience to machine these adapters, they are to be purchased outright.

 

And now on to how to make the throttle body sing; Electronic Control Module (ECM).

This is where I am currently working on the project. A potentially powerful solution presented itself the other day, so I pulled the trigger and gathered up a few pieces to give it a test.

The current plan is to run the Rochester TBI units using the ECM from the ACES Deuces Wild EFI setup. Selection of the Deuces Wild was in part due to its simplicity, and it's adjustability, and here comes the wallet talking again, a price point that lent itself well to this projects' cheap budget.

Part of me says sure, I could fire up the grinder and welder and try to make an intake adapter to tie the Deuces' 2300 pattern two barrel TBI to my dual singles manifold, and hey, I still may just do that before the project is over. But for now, the ACES ECM has promise to run the old Rochester TBI units without too much issue.

The Deuces Wild ECM wasn't the first one I'd thought of using. The first one I'd thought of using was actually another Hamilton Fuel Injection product, his chipped GM ECM unit and harness. And, if I'm being realistic, if my Deuces ECM is a bust, I probably will go with the Hamilton Fuel Injection ECM and harness. However, I wanted some tunability and interface options, and decided I didn't want to have to master those types of code files, chip burners, etc.

Megasquirt products also came in to view in this process. Open source, great flexibility, and their inexpensive product (Microsquirt would have been applicable to this task) lineup was very, very appealing. Well, is very appealing; I might go this route, too, and have the flexibility in moving the ECM to another project if/when this project grows out of this initial build.

Speeduino DropBear was also on the radar. Although I'm entertaining this one for a sequential multiport fuel injection system I'm building on a different project, it was pretty overkill for the flathead/EFI ambitions as they're shaping up.

 

Initial steps:

• clean off a workbench. You know how it goes - projects intermittently attended to, taking up space on the bench. So before I begin the next phase of EFI Flathead, I have to wrap up a few smaller projects and make a space.

• get a couple color printouts of the ACES pin-out diagrams. They're PDF files, legible on screen, but for some reason I prefer a paper copy in a vinyl jacket on the workbench.

• round up the variable DC power supply, VOM's, and soldering station.

• do some cleanup on the hard parts. The manifold needs degreased and inspected, and some carb studs procured. The Rochester TBI units could stand a bath, as well. Probably a fresh round of gaskets and pressure regulator freshening kits, if I'm in there that deep.

• and, some online sleuthing, in particular to see if any folks are using these ECM's for off-brand activities such as this flathead/EFI union. Simple questions, like injector impedance (both are a match, high impedance), or cycling the IAC valve (match). Learning the nuances of the platforms I've now chosen to work within.

• and, maybe come up with a candidate chassis to toss this powerplant into, when it's all said and done. There's a '40 Chrysler coupe here that needs to be fired up, and my personal favorites are the '39-'47 trucks, but so far, I haven't committed to which platform this flathead/EFI project should reside in.

 

This week, the ACES Deuces Wild EFI kit showed up, and I started with the pin-out of the throttle body harness; 16 wires, and although the ACES PDFs have decent harness wiring diagrams, their acronyms and abbreviations left much to be desired.

• Good news here, the throttle body hardware runs basically all GM TBI products (clones and aftermarket sensors, injectors, etc.), so it's just mating the two harnesses and systems. More like three dimensional checkers, not chess.

• Just one more teasing of wiring terminals to go - three 'sensor ground' wires, two are tied together in the harness, but the stand-alone, does it need to remain stand-alone, and if so, to which sensor is it wired? I'll be chasing down the ACES throttle body with continuity tests to answer that question. 

• One newer sensor (not developed in the late 80's) used by ACES is a combo Inlet Air Temperature (IAT) and Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor, TMAP, and I belive it checks out to a GM part number 24000470 (circa 2019 ~ 2025?). Keeping them together works out nicely in that I only have to mount one sensor body to my Manifold, cutting down on clutter, and a wee bit on sensor expense.

 

Next steps?

• Get a set of those Hamilton TBI adapter plates

• wiring harness; decision to make a special pigtail interface, or cut and modify the ACES supplied harness.

• Bench test the ACES ECM and Bluetooth CANBUS interface, make sure I can get my hardware and software percolating with the ECM, and that like the demo and operators manual insinuates, wrangle calculation parameters into the realm of these Rochester 700 TBI's (injector flow, injector pressure, etc).

 

Further out on the horizon:

• The ACES setup advertises the ability to also control ignition timing. Although I'll pass for now, for simplicity's sake, it's an idea I might entertain once the test mule is in a chassis and rolling down the road with some results and hopefully reliability.

• same is true for electric fans control. ACES says their able to switch/control relays for up to two electric fans, and my project chassis is slated to run an electric fan, but again for the sake of simplicity I'll forego that task, likely putting it in the hands of a dedicated Davies Craig electric waterpump controller, with fan capabilities.  

Yes, a couple 21st century tricks to teach the old reliable dog.

[41/53dodges]

Neat to see someone reviving this, I'd actually gone a little ways down this road myself, quite similar but different!

I'd been working with the weirder single barrel throttle body that was used in many GM econoboxes & corvettes for one goofy model year.

They're annoying to adapt and look funny, but they do allow for the use of GM 4.3 parts (injectors, sensors, etc), & I was planning on cracking into a 4.3 TBI ECU

Don't have any more recent pictures, but I'd shelved the project foe the time being.

 

I'll take a few more when I get home. 

 

You certainly got way farther, but may as well share some inspiration. 

 

 

 

[Sniper]

 

Dual TBI setup using a hybrid injector scheme.  High pressure injectors in a throttle body, 1 per.

[MBSoPaB]

Sniper, those thickstun intakes sure are a nice piece!  And your fuel injection components  compliment it well.

 

How's the Microsquirt  controller coming along?  I do belive I read that was your choice for ECM/ECU, correct?