1939 Ply P8 New Project

[Lloyd]

Hello all,

I am new to this forum and new to flathead engines. I have just purchased a 1939 Plymouth P8 Deluxe and getting started on what will no doubt be a learning project. The car is all original and in good shape for its age. I have done some research and found the engine is a 201, 'P8 369589'. I have not heard the engine run but the seller told me it did however he heard what sounded like a rod bearing tapping. I thought I would swap it out for a 230 but am having a very difficult time finding one, so I tried a 218, those are hard to find as well. Just the engine anyway, I have even started looking at other project cars to buy just to get the engine.

So - I have been thinking about rebuilding the 201 that is in there. I understand that it can be made a 218 by using a 218 crank and rods. Plus I would bore the cyl out 40 over. I have come across a few websites that I can get these parts from so it seems to get a little more power and since it needs rebuilt this would be about the best way to go. I am not looking at smoking the tires or high speeds, just cruising at about 60-70mph on the weekends down to Galveston. Putt around town here. However this is Texas and it would be great if I could get some AC going on inside. I have researched a place in Houston that advertises they do that sort of stuff. So I am concerned about running a compressor on it as well.

Anyway I'm kinda stuck wondering which direction to go, I would like to get a 218 or 230 but if I can get by just doing an overhaul on this engine then it seems the best route. If anyone could offer some advice, will the 201 work for what I need? Is there any 218 or 230 out there?

 

Thank you.

Lloyd

[Young Ed]

A 201 and a 218 share the same stroke so you don't need the crank and rods. However I have heard the 201 is kinda known for weak cranks so if you can find a later 218 one you might be better off. Yes you will need to bore it out to get to 218. Do you not have junkyards in your area? Plenty of 230 cores laying about around here.

[Lloyd]

Thanks Young Ed. Sure we got junk yards plenty. Even some with just classics.

http://ctcautoranch.com/index.html

I have looked at a few online and did not come up with anything as far as a 230 - not just the engine anyway, matter of fact been looking for the past week online. But if you've got plenty laying around up there should be some down here.

I have read that they are bolt for bolt swaps except for a difference between the Canadian style which is a longer block. So if I locate a block - it should drop right in, fit existing exhaust, mounts and match up to the tranny as well right?

[TodFitch]

A 201 and a 218 share the same stroke so you don't need the crank and rods. However I have heard the 201 is kinda known for weak cranks so if you can find a later 218 one you might be better off. Yes you will need to bore it out to get to 218. Do you not have junkyards in your area? Plenty of 230 cores laying about around here.

It is my understanding that the crank bearings were changed when they went from 201 to 218. . . Based on that I'd be a little surprised if a 218 crank would drop into a 201 block.

[Lloyd]

So its just the bore. That's the only difference then between a 201 and 218 block. Perhaps the head and cam, are they the same?

[P15-D24]

I would do more investigation before starting this project. Hollanders indicates the '39 block is not a swap for a 218 '46 or later block. Also it doesn't look like a straight swap for the crank. My Hollanders only goes back to '46 ( it does mention earlier years) and see if another member can check the pre war edition of Hollanders for more detail. I would look for a complete engine "46 or later engine and swap the entire unit. 

[Lloyd]

OK, what is Hollanders?

If the 39 block is not a swap for a 218 or later block then why look for a complete engine 46 or later and swap the entire unit?

Would the 46 or later block still mount to the transmission and existing motor mounts in the 39 Plymouth?

 

Never mind about the Hollanders, just found it and ordered the catalog for my year. Looks like that will be a big help as this project moves on down the road. I have done a few cars, 1960 ford PU, 1959 chevy Apache, 1964 GTO. But nothing  like this and surely nothing on flatheads. All the other cars were mostly there and running except the 60 ford PU. I pulled that out of a cow pasture but it turned into a great little truck.

 

Im glad this forum is here, Ive gotten some good direction with just my first post!

 

Still not sure on why P15-D24 says swap the entire unit with a 46 or later complete engine when his Hollanders is stating that the 39 201 block is not a swap for the 46 or later block.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Lloyd

[Robert Horne]

Hello all,

I am new to this forum and new to flathead engines. I have just purchased a 1939 Plymouth P8 Deluxe and getting started on what will no doubt be a learning project. The car is all original and in good shape for its age. I have done some research and found the engine is a 201, 'P8 369589'. I have not heard the engine run but the seller told me it did however he heard what sounded like a rod bearing tapping. I thought I would swap it out for a 230 but am having a very difficult time finding one, so I tried a 218, those are hard to find as well. Just the engine anyway, I have even started looking at other project cars to buy just to get the engine.

So - I have been thinking about rebuilding the 201 that is in there. I understand that it can be made a 218 by using a 218 crank and rods. Plus I would bore the cyl out 40 over. I have come across a few websites that I can get these parts from so it seems to get a little more power and since it needs rebuilt this would be about the best way to go. I am not looking at smoking the tires or high speeds, just cruising at about 60-70mph on the weekends down to Galveston. Putt around town here. However this is Texas and it would be great if I could get some AC going on inside. I have researched a place in Houston that advertises they do that sort of stuff. So I am concerned about running a compressor on it as well.

Anyway I'm kinda stuck wondering which direction to go, I would like to get a 218 or 230 but if I can get by just doing an overhaul on this engine then it seems the best route. If anyone could offer some advice, will the 201 work for what I need? Is there any 218 or 230 out there?

 

Thank you.

Lloyd

Maybe you should hear the 39 run for yourself, to see if it does actually have a problem, or if it is rebuildable.

 

If you can or need to, rebuild the 201, a 5 speed trans would make the car alot more driveable....

 

My 38 has about 80HP, and is very driveable with the 5 speed trans.

 

I have a 56 engine, still a 23 inch small block, 132 HP, that I plan on using in my 37 project.

 

Plenty of possibilities out there.....

[martybose]

(snip)

 

Still not sure on why P15-D24 says swap the entire unit with a 46 or later complete engine when his Hollanders is stating that the 39 201 block is not a swap for the 46 or later block.

While the internal aspect of the 39 block may be different than the later block, all of the 23 inch flatheads bolt in the same way and have essentially identical water pumps, etc.  My 47 now has a 230 out of a 52 Dodge; dropped right in after rebuilding it.

 

Marty

[Lloyd]

Main concern is I plan on putting some AC in the car, the compressor is a bit of a drag. I thought more HP would help. Other than that if I can drive it at 60-70 down the highway without problems Im good. By 5 speed transmission are you talking automatic?

[Lloyd]

While the internal aspect of the 39 block may be different than the later block, all of the 23 inch flatheads bolt in the same way and have essentially identical water pumps, etc.  My 47 now has a 230 out of a 52 Dodge; dropped right in after rebuilding it.

 

Marty

OK, so its just internal components that may not match up. The outside of the block is identical, component mounting bolt holes, transmission, intake, exhaust mounting all the same.

Thanks.

[Lloyd]

I have done some research and from what I see Plymouth engine codes to identify the 230 begin with P26, P28, P30: 

http://www.t137.com/registry/help/otherengines/pengines.html

 

I have also read that Dodge Flathead 6 engines are bolt for bolt swap in a Plymouth. Point being, I see Dodge came out with the 230 long before Plymouth did. Is that correct?

 

Is there a good way to ID an original 230 engine that would fit my Plymouth?

[GlennCraven]

I think the Webmaster is on the right track. If not rebuilding the engine that's already in the car, to pretty much stock specs, it would probably be best to look for a postwar flat six of 230 ci. From what I was just reading it looks like they built them up through 1961, so there should be a fair number of Dodges and Plymouths out there with the 23-inch block.

 

However, a search of car-part.com (an online salvage yard search tool) didn't show any matching engines anywhere near Houston. ... There were at least four at French Lake Salvage, up there with Young Ed. And many others around the country. But not within a few hundred miles of Houston.

 

I dunno if the Texas salvage yards don't use car-part.com or what.

 

That classic salvage yard you linked is pretty fond of their junk ... ahem, "rebuilders." (Many of which are, to be fair, indeed rebuilders, not just junk.)

 

They have a '66 Barracuda body only for $1,750 in rough condition. I could have bought a '64 in similar shape at a local salvage auction here in Kansas in July for $400. With the 273 in it.

[greg g]

The 230 was a mid 54 addition for Plymouth.  You need to consider a couple of things with a dodge engine.  The crank shaft flange on a lot of them is thicker.  Dodges used the fluid drive coupling which was much heavier than the flywheel dry clutch set up plymouth used.  As a result the flange was beefier and carried an 8 bolt fastening system.  Most Plymouths used a four bolt flange although my 56 230 has a 6 bolt system.  Not that these are insurmountable, but they need to be dealt with.  The transmissions are different the 39 being the last of the floor shifted units.  You could probably mount the 39 trans to a later egien, but you would need to look at the bell housing, and how the transmission mount to the car to make those kinds of assessments.  I know the 35 and older engines had a slightly different starter mount so those bell housings are different from the 36 and newer.

[TodFitch]

. . .I know the 35 and older engines had a slightly different starter mount so those bell housings are different from the 36 and newer.

I believe that transition was between '34 and '35, not '35 and '36.

 

They changed the block for full length water jackets in '35 and added the water distribution tube. So the starter had to move outward a little as opposed to being nestled in the gap between the water jacket and the crank area. Head gasket is different '33/34 versus all the other years for that same reason but the bearings, pistons are the same '33 through '41 and the crank and rods the same '34 through '41 ('34 was basically a stroked '33).

[Lloyd]

OK, thanks for the help. Greg G you said the 39 was the last of the floor shifted units but mine is on the column. Anyway like Robert Horne stated and I have read these flatheads do better on the highway if you add an overdrive trans to the engine. So changing trans is definitely on the table - even switching to auto trans is an option although I would rather not fool with adding an oil cooler. It would just be nice to get an engine and trans that fit together first and require as little mods to bolt into the car and link up as I can get away with. So even if the dodge crank is beefier and or they changed the bell housing then getting the engine & trans at the same time would be the answer to all. One thing draws my attention is as TodFish stated above concerning the starter being moved out - hopefully that would not pose a problem in the engine compartment of the car.

 

So now, instead of just looking for an engine - Im looking for an engine and trans unit. Preferably a trans w/overdrive. Did Dodge or Plymouth make a 230 with a mated trans that gave a good ride on the highway?

[P15-D24]

While the internal aspect of the 39 block may be different than the later block, all of the 23 inch flatheads bolt in the same way and have essentially identical water pumps, etc.  

That is the point I was making. 

[Lloyd]

That is the point I was making. 

 

OK, so I don't have to be concerned about the engine fitting to existing mounts regardless of what 230 I get. I am assuming that includes Dodge as well as Plymouth

 - or are you saying that any 23 inch 230 from any make, Desoto, Chrysler will fit?

 

So did anyone make a transmission that was mated to the 230 and did well on the highway - perhaps with an overdrive?

[Frank Elder]

OK, so I don't have to be concerned about the engine fitting to existing mounts regardless of what 230 I get. I am assuming that includes Dodge as well as Plymouth

 - or are you saying that any 23 inch 230 from any make, Desoto, Chrysler will fit?

 

So did anyone make a transmission that was mated to the 230 and did well on the highway - perhaps with an overdrive?

stick with dodge and plymouth........chrysler and desoto are 25 inch blocks, not 23.......

[Lloyd]

Dodge and Plymouth it is.

Does anyone know of a good transmission to look for? I have found that Plymouth added an overdrive transmission in 1952. So Im thinking to find a 1952 on Plymouth 230 with one of these trannys attached.

[Robert Horne]

The 5 speed manual with a floor shift I am running, is a TK5 Ford Ranger, units from 1983 to 1987.

 

Was a easy install.        Is working great.

 

Many have used the S10 Chevy 5 speed manual floor shift also...

[DJ194950]

Best of luck!

Seems the OD trans are like hens teeth. 230's not a problem.

furd and chevy  Od trans are readily avail (nobody wants them!) and not too expensive but do Not fit the Mopars!

It's not impossible but it could be a long search. Some memebers have been lucky checking all older wrecking yards in their area.

 

Egge specializes in older engine parts and rebuilding them. Suppose they buy NOS when possible and they have  someone mfg. for them some updated seals for some older motors. Do they have someone still making the rear main seals for our cars? I hope so, at least someone is!

If not their supply will vary when they can find NOS.

 

Call them and ask?

 

Doug

[Lloyd]

I was just looking and see Plymouth made an overdrive from 1952 - 1956 although I saw another topic that stated Plymouth carried the overdrive till 1959.

Hate to hear the OD's for Chrysler are hard to find although I am finding a number of sites that sell rebuild parts for them. But it seems that finding an OD Ply tarns from 52-56 may be difficult.

 

I have also read about the chevy S10 - even seen some places selling the adapter for it. Hadn't seen any for the TK5 Ford Ranger. Where did you get that Robert?

 

So what it may be boiling down to - if I choose to continue with the 230 exchange and OD trans is find a mid 1954-1959 230ci and then mate a Chevy S10 or Ford TK5 to it.

Floor linkage should not be a problem but I changed a 1965 Ford Galaxy over from automatic to manual and the biggest problem was fabricating the clutch linkage.

So if they sell adapters for the bell housings do they sell kits for the clutch linkage as well?

How did you guys that have added these Chevy S10 trans or Ford TK5 get the clutch linkage hooked up?

[Robert Horne]

Some time ago, I started a thread, "5 speed not T5".

 

Using the TK5 Ranger trans, no adapter is needed.

 

I used the my Dodge pressure plate, bell housing, throwout bearing.

 

I used a Ranger clutch disc.

 

 

[Lloyd]

When you say TK5 Ranger you mean Ford Ranger right? So this trans mated right up to your existing bellhousing  and you used your existing pressure plate, throwout bearing with the Ranger clutch disc?

 

What engine do you have Robert?