Crankshaft

[DollyDodge]

UPDATE. I went by the machine shop on Friday and the guy is now finally in gear to get Dolly Dodge's engine rebuilt.  The crank has been sent to Los Angeles to be ground.  They decided the crank was ok to grind again to .40 over.  The shop owner said they are ready to get going on the engine (I hope he isn't just pulling my leg).  At least something is happening, that is good.

[HanksB3B]

Dear Dolly,

 

I'm not feeling it.  One thing I know for certain is that Jens and Steve over at Vintage Power Wagons stated that although they carry main bearings in .010, .020, .030 and .040 over, they agree that unless the engine was being used in a stationary industrial application .040 will not stand up (too squishy I think he said) in regular use as a truck engine.  I believe him and can't think of anyone that has seen more L6 engines come and go.  Isn't your guy the same guy that had your engine for over a year or something?  You know I love your truck and I know you live in a very rural setting and I knows freight is expensive.  This is not an ad for VPW but I know they have engines with very little use with all the internals for $750.00 add freight at another $300.  Although that's a chunk of change you'd be better starting off there than finding out your local rebuilder is rebuilding an engine that even if it holds up for some time will never be able to be rebuilt again. Ask Don Coatney if I'm wrong but I don't think so. The other thing is that even if you (or anyone else) finds a person to rebuild a flathead the tolerances are one half to not more than one and a half max clearance.  The other best thing to do is to source all replaceable parts ahead of time including the water distribution tube, gaskets and seals and supply  your rebuilder a copy of the engine section of the truck manual. These engines are 60 years old and its not like rebuilding a 350 Chevy.

 

It's o.k. if you feel like shooting the messenger, but please don't,

 

Hank    

Edited April 23, 2013 by HanksB3B

[John-T-53]

So what's .040 under, the mains, rods, or both? In the previous version of my engine, I once ran a crank with .030 mains and .050 rods. Bearings get increasingly hard to source the lower you go.

 

In my (new) crank guy's opinion, .050 was the max you should take these to.

 

The old engine had problems that I wrote about on here a few years ago, which kept recurring until I decided to completely tear down and rebuilt it last year. The problem was the crank: It was cracked in several places, had crappy journal to edge profile radii, and one of the main bearing caps had a locator tab broken off from the start (which I didn't notice the first time). This led to rod bearing failure twice. I can't say it was due to the reground dimensions, but they may have been a factor. Who knows?

 

It would be worth it to look for a better crank, to compare. You can source a "plug n' play" crank from Motor Warehouse in Sacramento for about $500. Compared to the cost of regrinding your old crank, plus shipping to LA and back, it might be comparable. But less time.

[Don Coatney]

I make no claims to be a bearing expert. I have never heard that .040" bearings are "squishy". I do believe that if tolorances are correct that a set of .040" bearings should perform well for a long time under normal usage. I would not be afraid to use them in my engine. As far as never being able to ever rebuild the engine again I say who cares. At my age I do not plan on ever having to rebuild my engine again. And if I did I would simply locate a better crankshaft and use it.

 

Here is an interesting link on flathead engines.

 

http://www.moparchat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12658

[DollyDodge]

Hi all, and you certainly gave me lots to think about.  I have talked with the folks at VPW several months ago about a replacement crank, at that time they only had a few and they were expensive (if memory serves me correctly he wanted around $500 including shipping), and they all needed to be ground.  I spend a lot of time talking to the VPW folks and to Roberts.  Yes this is the guy that has had my engine in pieces for over a year  However, he has a lot of expereince with flatheads, having rebuilt many over the years in everything from cars to forklifts.  We got a water source tube from VPW last year (the one that was in the engine was in terrible shape-basically falling apart and frozen in place in the block).  I don't have a concern one about his ability to rebuild the engine, I just think I am low on the totem pole from his perspective, which ticks me off.  The rebuilder has copies of all the old engine manuals, parts manual, copy of VPW catalog, Roberts Motor Parts Catalog, and some other stuff I gave him.  I also agree, I am nearly 60, my old truck will likely not ever be rebuilt in my lifetime given how little I will drive it, so that isn't a concern of mine.  I also wanted to use as much of the old original parts as I could.  My old truck has been together a long time.  I don't want to introduce too many new things to her, she might not like the new parts (attempt at humor), so I wanted to rebuild the old engine.  Anyway, I am where I am, it certainly has been a learning experience. 0.040 under (under/over I always get mixed up) is on the rod journals if I understand him correctly, maybe it is both I will ask next time I go by.  I looked at the flathead link and whenever I read such things I feel really ignorant about engines.  Some folks are just really knowledgable  When I wrote in this forum about the crank issues I was having several months ago many folks came up with places to contact for replacement cranks, I believe the place suggested above in Sacramento was one of them.  I called many places, and not one had an available crank when I spoke to them.  The rebuilder thought he located several, but upon inspection all were cracked.  So we are where we are, all I can do is go forward and hope for the best.  I appreciate all the input.  I don't know what I would have done without this forum.  Later all.

Edited April 23, 2013 by DollyDodge

[Jeff Balazs]

DollyDodge;

I have a feeling it will be just fine. These engines are in a pretty soft state of tune........and you are not hot rodding it at all.

Assuming it is assembled correctly I'd bet that with regular oil changes that bottom end will out last most of us. Generally speaking crank jobs are either good from the get go or have serious issues right away. And I feel certain your re-builder does not want that.

 

I for one am going to think good thoughts and hope you get back on the road soon. I really miss new installments of the adventures of DollyDodge. They were and are a major source of inspiration to my project.

 

Jeff

[P15-D24]

Squishy? 

 

FYI I have 218 cores available for 170.00 in Southern Cal, pls freight.(Just haven't added them to the store yet) 

Before shipping  I can have them checked and magnufluxed by my local shop if you pay for the service to verify they can be reground. 

[DollyDodge]

Hey, thanks for the last two posts.

 

I will be glad to get DD back on the road so I can post her adventures again.  I miss cruising around with her.

 

If more issues come up with my crank P15-D24 I will contact you about a core.  I am glad to know you have some.  I ran into complete dead ends with my inquiring.

 

I think I will be ok, the machine shop I used has been around for 30+ years.  When I first revived DD I had a friend of mine tell me not to use the local shop for an engine overhaul when I was first talking about doing the overhaul.  My friend said the local guy was really slow.  My friend was working on his old ford truck and he took the engine to a shop in Ridgecrest (2.5 hours south of here).  A little over 2 years he got it back.  So I don't feel too bad.

[Jeff Balazs]

Like you I sometimes can't believe how long some things take on these trucks. In order to keep momentum I try to get at least some small thing accomplished on mine every day. All too often it does not amount to much....... but I keep trying to push forward. Some of my frustration comes as result of my lack of experience with old Mopars. I can tell you that if this had been a chevy I would have been driving it by now. They are so much easier to get parts for...... and I much more familiar with their way of doing things........ that it would have been a snap. But you know it would have been just another old chevy........nice but nothing special.

 

Best of luck with this. Hopefully someday we can meet up on the road. In the meantime I dream of getting my old Dodge out on the back country roads like some of the photos you have posted.

Jeff

[Desotodav]

I am presently having issues in the same areas that you are working on DD, so I am following your post closely at present. The terms and parts that you describe make a lot more sense to me know as I continue to learn my way through the issues. I have the 81 year old fella who rebuilt my motor 1500 miles ago dropping down to measure the crank on Monday. We may end up machining the crank and finding bearings to suit yet. I am probably fortunate that I have a few spare motors. I too hope to never have to rebuild my engine again, so I'd rather get it right this time. I was of the same thoughts as you when rebuilding my 52 truck - I tried to keep as many things original as I can (just added some factory accessories).

Keep taking forward steps my friend, and I wish you every success.

[DollyDodge]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and encouragement. I too try and keep little projects going while the engine work is being done. Right now I am working on the wiper motor. I know the old girl will be back on the road before too long. I look forward to seeing each of your project mentioned above come to completion as well.

[Jeff Balazs]

DD;

When I think about Pilothouse trucks...... two images come to mind.......one is the old red ranch truck in the movie "The Rounders" and the other is DollyDodge out on a lonely old highway. I doubt if old red is anywhere to be found...........but I know that DollyDodge will be on the road again. Hang in there Bud it will happen.

Jeff

[DollyDodge]

Thanks Jeff.  I like those pictures of DD out in the middle of no where too. 

[HanksB3B]

My favorite.

 

 

Hank 

[48Dodger]

John-T-53 said

 

"So what's .040 under, the mains, rods, or both?"

 

Blocks are "over"...crankshafts are "under", and refered to in Rod size and Main size..ie .010/.020

Here's a good write up on crankshaft terms.

 

48D

Edited May 24, 2013 by 48dodger

[John-T-53]

Good article Tim. The author is right on about the fillet profile - this is where cranks crack.

 

Here's pics of my the 230 crank I put in my motor last summer, with detailed shots of a rod journal and its edge profile. Beautiful work done by Armando of Custom Crankshaft Repair.

 

I still have the old crank (that's cracked) I should take pics of the fillet area and put them on here for comparison.

[Matt Wilson]

Hi John,

 

I see you got your crankshaft welded by Armando Ayala at Custom Crankshaft Repair.  He welded mine as well (in fact, I might have gotten his name from you, but can't recall, as it's been a few years).  He had to weld up all of the fillet radii (at every journal), because the previous shop had done a terrible job of grinding those radii by leaving them jagged/rough and WAY smaller/sharper than factory minimum requirements.  As you know, this is a recipe for disaster (cracked/broken crankshaft).

 

Anyway, my crankshaft looks great and fast-forward, I am finally nearly ready to assemble the engine (life got in the way till now), and I just wanted to see how your crankshaft has held up.  In another post from 2015, I saw that you modified your engine quite a bit for more power and you drive on the freeway nearly every day (at that time, at least).  How many miles now since the rebuild?  Any issues with your crankshaft or any other part of your engine?  What's your cruise RPM?  And by the way, what coating did you put on your pistons (saw a coating in the other post).

 

Thanks!

[John-T-53]

On 1/3/2024 at 10:39 AM, Matt Wilson said:

Hi John,

 

I see you got your crankshaft welded by Armando Ayala at Custom Crankshaft Repair.  He welded mine as well (in fact, I might have gotten his name from you, but can't recall, as it's been a few years).  He had to weld up all of the fillet radii (at every journal), because the previous shop had done a terrible job of grinding those radii by leaving them jagged/rough and WAY smaller/sharper than factory minimum requirements.  As you know, this is a recipe for disaster (cracked/broken crankshaft).

 

Anyway, my crankshaft looks great and fast-forward, I am finally nearly ready to assemble the engine (life got in the way till now), and I just wanted to see how your crankshaft has held up.  In another post from 2015, I saw that you modified your engine quite a bit for more power and you drive on the freeway nearly every day (at that time, at least).  How many miles now since the rebuild?  Any issues with your crankshaft or any other part of your engine?  What's your cruise RPM?  And by the way, what coating did you put on your pistons (saw a coating in the other post).

 

Thanks!

 

Hi Matt,

 

Wow, you're still working on your engine. They do take a lot of effort, and yes, life tends to put truck projects on hold. Yes, it was me that sent you to Armando since he moved to Emory, TX after having his business in San Mateo, CA (where he ground mine), sharing a shop with Cardelli Motorsports. That's awesome that he was able to repair your fillets, that must have been a lot of work. 

 

Anyway, Armando's crank is still pluggin' away in my engine and haven't had any problems. I probably have over 20k miles on it so far, not sure of the exact amount.

At 65 mph my RPM is slightly over 2k... I think 2200. It's a comfortable cruising RPM whatever it is. 

 

The pistons I had coated by HM Elliott in NC. It was only a few tenths thick, just a friction-improving coating I think. It's baked on. They also have buildable coatings if you need to make up space, from what I recall. 

 

Good luck.

[Matt Wilson]

Hey John, yes, life has gotten in the way of this project many times. 

 

I've also incurred delays, some very lengthy, due to my own blunders, as well as poor workmanship by the first couple of machine shops I used, and then there have been incorrectly made parts a few times, which sometimes resulted in significant delays.  It all adds up.

 

I think I'll finally be able to assemble it in the next couple of months.

 

And yes, it was a lot of work for Armando to weld, straighten and grind the shaft.  It was not cheap, but I am confident it will do well.  I spoke with him at length about his process and the results he gets (material hardness of the welded product, etc.), and he really seems to know his stuff.  I was impressed.

 

What areas of your crankshaft did Armando weld?  By your comments, I take it they were not the fillet radii?  Just curious...

Edited January 7 by Matt Wilson

[John-T-53]

On 1/5/2024 at 2:21 PM, Matt Wilson said:

Hey John, yes, life has gotten in the way of this project many times. 

 

I've also incurred delays, some very lengthy, due to my own blunders, as well as poor workmanship by the first couple of machine shops I used, and then there have been incorrectly made parts a few times, which sometimes resulted in significant delays.  It all adds up.

 

I think I'll finally be able to assemble it in the next couple of months.

 

And yes, it was a lot of work for Armando to weld, straighten and grind the shaft.  It was not cheap, but I am confident it will do well.  I spoke with him at length about his process and the results he gets (material hardness of the welded product, etc., and he really seems to know his stuff.  I was impressed.

 

What areas of your crankshaft did Armando weld?  By your comments, I take it they were not the fillet radii?  Just curious...

 

Matt -

We didn't have to do any welding on mine. The previous shop screwed up the original crank to the point of no return - Armando magnafluxed it and found it to be cracked so he sourced me a replacement. The new crank had all its journals still in standard size so he just had to grind them all .010" under.

 

Be sure to start a thread on here with photos of your engine assembly when you get it going. We need more build threads to increase the activity on this site.

 

BTW I checked and I have 25k on my engine.....

[Matt Wilson]

16 minutes ago, John-T-53 said:

 

Matt -

We didn't have to do any welding on mine. The previous shop screwed up the original crank to the point of no return - Armando magnafluxed it and found it to be cracked so he sourced me a replacement. The new crank had all its journals still in standard size so he just had to grind them all .010" under.

 

Be sure to start a thread on here with photos of your engine assembly when you get it going. We need more build threads to increase the activity on this site.

 

BTW I checked and I have 25k on my engine.....

Ah, I see.  For some reason, I thought that you had gotten him to do some welding.  Glad to hear it is still working well, regardless.

 

I am bad about creating and maintaining progress threads, but I will try to do that, now that I'm so close to getting this thing assembled (I think....I hope....).  There have been some interesting developments over the years, so posting those would probably be helpful (or at least entertaining) to some folks.

[John-T-53]

I had just observed him welding cranks in his shop a few times. Submerged arc welding or something along those lines. He had a crank welding machine that covered the arc with a steady flow of pellets as it turned. It was cool to watch. I should have taken some pics of it but those were the days before I had a smart phone.... perhaps you saw the same machine in TX?

[Matt Wilson]

41 minutes ago, John-T-53 said:

I had just observed him welding cranks in his shop a few times. Submerged arc welding or something along those lines. He had a crank welding machine that covered the arc with a steady flow of pellets as it turned. It was cool to watch. I should have taken some pics of it but those were the days before I had a smart phone.... perhaps you saw the same machine in TX?

I might have seen his welding machine sitting static in his shop, but I did not see it in action.  And I probably have photos of it, (again, not in action), as I took pics of evening while I was there (with his permission, of course).  I would would have enjoyed seeing it in operation.  But yes, it is submerged arc welding, which produces very high quality welds when set up properly.  He has been doing this for 50 years at this point (literally since 1974), so I think he probably has it set up properly, lol.  He described his pre-heating and post-heating processes, the wire and flux he uses, the straightening he does, etc.  It was all fascinating to me as a mechanical engineer and as a guy who likes to do hand-on things.

[Dodgeb4ya]

There are video's of  submerged arc  welding of crankshafts on u-Tube.

[Matt Wilson]

15 hours ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

There are video's of  submerged arc  welding of crankshafts on u-Tube.

Yes, I've watched my share of those.  Good stuff.