Front End & Steering Box Questions

[1952B3b23]

Hey Guys,

 

Im in the process of doing the diesel swap into my '52 B3b 1/2 ton and I've been fiddling with the front suspension. Its all torn down and i got new leaf springs from St. Louis Spring. Now im in the process of collecting the necessary parts to put it all back together when the time comes, king pins, shackles, tie rod ends, drag link, etc. This got the gears turning in the old brain... since the diesel is heavier (750 lbs dry) than the flat head 6, would i be better sourcing a 1 ton or 1-1/2 ton front axle and spindles? Also would it be a good idea to get a steering box from one of those trucks in order to provide greater mechanical advantage when turning? Im not familiar with the heavier spec trucks so any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

I decided to make this a separate thread instead of in bedding it in my "1952 B3b with Cummins 4bt" so that people can search for it in the future easier and hopefully it will help them out.

 

Thanks,

 

-Chris

[MBF]

Chris:  I've got a 1 ton, and a 1/2 ton parts truck.  I believe the steering boxes are the same between the two so there isn't anything to gain there.   The one ton axle brings with it the heavier spindles that use the 6 lug Budd type wheels which there aren't a lot of replacements for.  Unless you can find a replacement spindle that will fit the 1 ton axle (I would imagine that there is one) you're kind of locked in.    I also have a 2.5 ton that I'm working on.  That has a heavier box but it also takes up a bit more real estate under the hood so that may be an issue.   Mike 

[4852dodge]

I believe that the 1/2 -1 ton axles are the same with the spindles being the difference.  Same with the steering boxes. A power assist system may be what you need.  I saw one used but don't remember where that bolted to the axle I-beam and cross bar between the tie rods.  As you turned the wheel it would provide added pressure to ease steering,  maybe a Ford product from the 70s?

[1952B3b23]

Thanks for the info guys, i had a feeling that the steering boxes and axles where the same for 1/2 and 1 ton trucks but i was not sure. Considering the heavier spindles would narrow my wheel selection down im going to stick with the ones i got.

 

I found this article which deals with upgrades for straight axles, it was on the Classic Truck web site.

 

http://www.classictrucks.com/tech/0306cl_straight_axle_solutions/viewall.html

 

Of course they mention steering assists that can be adapted to Ford and Chevy trucks but not for Dodge, although they do give the name of some suppliers who may be able to tell me if i could make it work on a Dodge. I'll see if i cant contact some of those outfits and see if they have any info on Dodge applications.

[1952B3b23]

Just for the heck of it, what do you guys think about independent front suspension on a diesel? Fatman Fab thinks it can be done and they say the parts are plenty strong as long as i got all the stuff they recommend for the big V8s. The thing that had originally detered me was the $2,000 plus price tag and i like the look of the old straight axle and its simplicity. My main concerns are with safety not so much having the truck handle like a car.

[Jeff Balazs]

Chris,

Are you planning on adding disc brakes to this truck? If so then you may need to factor this into any axle swap you are considering.

 

I wonder what the actual weight difference is between the new diesel / tranny combo and the original engine / bell housing / tranny is?

It may not be significant. I pulled the flathead -bell housing with fluid drive & tranny out of my truck as a single unit this summer and it was one heavy brute. It could very well be that your combo won't be any heavier than that one.......if so then the set up from a 3/4 ton should be up to handing it. I am no expert on swaps like this but it seems to me if the weight is fairly similar it should work. Is your truck a 108" WB or 116" WB ? That would make a difference in handling as well.

 

Jeff

[1952B3b23]

Chris,

Are you planning on adding disc brakes to this truck? If so then you may need to factor this into any axle swap you are considering.

 

I wonder what the actual weight difference is between the new diesel / tranny combo and the original engine / bell housing / tranny is?

It may not be significant. I pulled the flathead -bell housing with fluid drive & tranny out of my truck as a single unit this summer and it was one heavy brute. It could very well be that your combo won't be any heavier than that one.......if so then the set up from a 3/4 ton should be up to handing it. I am no expert on swaps like this but it seems to me if the weight is fairly similar it should work. Is your truck a 108" WB or 116" WB ? That would make a difference in handling as well.

 

Jeff

 

I do plan on adding disc brakes to the front axle, i'll be using the olddaddy kit. Im thinking of using a 8 3/4" rear axle out of a c-body chrysler with drum brakes, this should give good stopping power.

 

Thats a very good point im not sure what the weight difference is either. I pulled the old flatty and 3 speed tranny out of my truck as a unit also and you are correct the sucker was very heavy. The weight difference may not be that great, i remember someone telling me that the flathead  and tranny combo is around 600 lbs. Maybe im just worrying about something that isnt really going to be a problem. My truck is a 108" wheel base. I wish i could find a decent way to weigh the flathead and tranny combo withought having a monster scale. Or maybe someone on here knows this info already?

[Jeff Balazs]

Chris;

If you have a 1/2 ton then those kits are pretty straightforward. Not sure if anyone has ever fitted a kit like this to a 1 ton axle if you are still considering that.

 

I am fairly certain that what I lifted out of my truck was well over 600#......fully assembled flathead, bellhousing with fluid drive & clutch and factory NP 4 speed. I'd guess more like #900+.   Maybe someone out there actually knows the true weight?

 

I am going to assume that you plan on really using this truck. Otherwise why bother with the diesel ? Right? Again I am no expert....just an interested observer......but I think I would look at a Dana 44 with disc's for the rear. Seems to me that you might find one fairly cheap that would be an pretty easy swap. I've swapped a Dana 35 with 12" disc's into my 3/4 ton and that was dead nuts simple.

Hope this helps, I look forward to hearing about your project.

Jeff

[John-T-53]

I concur on the (lack of) weight difference. I believe the weight of the ol' flatty was around 700+ pounds...I think it was Greybeard that posted that info a long time ago. Not sure if that includes the bellhousing or not, but the block, crank, and flywheel are all big honkers that tip the scales in their own right. Plus when you add the accessories (all heavy iron, steel, and copper buggers too), it all adds up! Don't forget the radiator too!

[1952B3b23]

Chris;

If you have a 1/2 ton then those kits are pretty straightforward. Not sure if anyone has ever fitted a kit like this to a 1 ton axle if you are still considering that.

 

I am fairly certain that what I lifted out of my truck was well over 600#......fully assembled flathead, bellhousing with fluid drive & clutch and factory NP 4 speed. I'd guess more like #900+.   Maybe someone out there actually knows the true weight?

 

I am going to assume that you plan on really using this truck. Otherwise why bother with the diesel ? Right? Again I am no expert....just an interested observer......but I think I would look at a Dana 44 with disc's for the rear. Seems to me that you might find one fairly cheap that would be an pretty easy swap. I've swapped a Dana 35 with 12" disc's into my 3/4 ton and that was dead nuts simple.

Hope this helps, I look forward to hearing about your project.

Jeff

 

Im going to stick with my half ton axle, so the disc brake conversion from Charlie should be pretty straight forward.

 

Yea i agree i though the 600 lb estimate was a bit lean the darn thing felt just as heavy as the 4bt when i was pushing it around on the engine lift. I havent looked into the Dana 44 yet and im not to familiar with there applications. Im just wondering if it will take the torque of the diesel? Ive heard of guys on the 4bt swap forum using C-body Chrysler 8-3/4 rear axles under there trucks and having no problems. But i would like to keep my options open for now cause im still a ways away from installing a new rear axle so why not learn and research as much as i can. Thanks for taking interest in my project and giving me some really good advice and help!

[1952B3b23]

I concur on the (lack of) weight difference. I believe the weight of the ol' flatty was around 700+ pounds...I think it was Greybeard that posted that info a long time ago. Not sure if that includes the bellhousing or not, but the block, crank, and flywheel are all big honkers that tip the scales in their own right. Plus when you add the accessories (all heavy iron, steel, and copper buggers too), it all adds up! Don't forget the radiator too!

Im glad theres another person in agreement. Im going to stick to my original plan of keeping the stock front suspension and upgrading the brakes, new king pins, tie rod ends, leaf springs etc. This should help keep the cost down a bit more and keep the front end simpler just how i like it. Thanks for the help 

[4852dodge]

The 8 3/4 should handle the torque fine.  They used them behind 440 hp and ln trucks for years.  Good choice of ratios also.

[1952B3b23]

The 8 3/4 should handle the torque fine.  They used them behind 440 hp and ln trucks for years.  Good choice of ratios also.

 

Thats what the fellow that told me about the 8-3/4 said too. I also hear that depending on what application you get them out of they are pretty close to the same width as what comes stock on the 1/2 ton pilothouses, maybe an inch or so wider.

[Looznutz]

I believe that the Daddy kit fits on the early one tons with no problems. I think the spindle is the same diameter of the 1/2-3/4 ton. I think Daddy is making a kit to fit the latter spindles as well don't quote me on that just visit his site and find out.

[1952B3b23]

I believe that the Daddy kit fits on the early one tons with no problems. I think the spindle is the same diameter of the 1/2-3/4 ton. I think Daddy is making a kit to fit the latter spindles as well don't quote me on that just visit his site and find out.

 

I didnt know that about the 1 ton, Im going to stick with my half ton setup so i know Charlie has a kit for that.  

[Scruffy49]

Sweptline (61-71 Dodge truck) power steering was ram assist, but it sucked. Same with the Torino version. Don't waste your money. If you want power steering look into the 4x4 Toyota box and pump swap. Fairly common and works.

[48Dodger]

Thats what the fellow that told me about the 8-3/4 said too. I also hear that depending on what application you get them out of they are pretty close to the same width as what comes stock on the 1/2 ton pilothouses, maybe an inch or so wider.

 

Info from my personal files etc....

 

TRACK WIDTH

 

Pilothouse Front.......................  58.625

Pilothouse Rear........................  61.25

 

8 3/4 AXLES

 

A-body, 65-72...........................    55.6

 

B-body, 62-70............................   59.2

B-body, 71-72............................   62.0

B-body, 71-72............................   63.4  station wagon

 

C-body, 64-72 ...........................   63.4

D-body, 64-72............................    63.4

E-body, 70-74............................    60.7

 

8 3/4 are valued axles when it comes to Mopar Muscle. They can be tough to find in some areas....

They are like the Ford 9 inch (third member drop out) and almost as popular.

 

The trick is Third member housing and pinion size.

 

Find the big ones. Here's a link to understanding 8 3/4 axles.

 

48D

[1952B3b23]

Info from my personal files etc....

 

TRACK WIDTH

 

Pilothouse Front.......................  58.625

Pilothouse Rear........................  61.25

 

8 3/4 AXLES

 

A-body, 65-72...........................    55.6

 

B-body, 62-70............................   59.2

B-body, 71-72............................   62.0

B-body, 71-72............................   63.4  station wagon

 

C-body, 64-72 ...........................   63.4

D-body, 64-72............................    63.4

E-body, 70-74............................    60.7

 

8 3/4 are valued axles when it comes to Mopar Muscle. They can be tough to find in some areas....

They are like the Ford 9 inch (third member drop out) and almost as popular.

 

The trick is Third member housing and pinion size.

 

Find the big ones. Here's a link to understanding 8 3/4 axles.

 

48D

 

Thanks for the info. By "third member drop out" do you mean the differential being in the removable carrier like the Ford 9"?

[48Dodger]

Yep...exactly

 

 

48D

[Kensoldtruck]

When installing a fatman IFS and keeping the stock engine and trans does the oil pan fit without mods?  I am considering making this change and when I spoke to the shop that I am planning on using this was a concern he expressed.  So any clues will be appreciated.

[1952B3b23]

When installing a fatman IFS and keeping the stock engine and trans does the oil pan fit without mods?  I am considering making this change and when I spoke to the shop that I am planning on using this was a concern he expressed.  So any clues will be appreciated.

 

Im not sure about that when installing an IFS but i know that my drag link would hit the oil pan on the stock flathead when turning tightly to the left. If the oil pan does interfer with the front suspension it can be modified to clear, this will reduce the volume of oil in the pan and therefore you would have to decrease the time in between oil changes. As long as you dont chop a huge section out of the pan i think it would be okay. Then again ive never done this before but thats what i have heard from people who have had to, so im just relaying info along.

 

-Chris

[Young Ed]

You could always switch to a car/earlier truck rear sump pan. The only real issue you'd have is it ended up dead center of the engine.

[Dave72dt]

You'll be replacing the front axle  used with a crossmember. but these will typically lower the front ride height and place the cross member higher in ther frame than the axle was.  The other news is most  aftermarkets are front steer setups so that may free up some room if you have a rear sump pan.  suggest getting the tape measure out and checking clearance on what you now have.  Then call your choice of IFS suppilier and talk to their tech  department.  As much as they want to sell you their product, they also want you satisfied with the end result.

Edited February 20, 2013 by Dave72dt