Question about hemi heads

[austinsailor]

I'm rebuilding a little 241 Hemi, which I mentioned in another thread that I can't seem to locate. I talked ot the guys at Hotheads, as suggested by others here and they strongly recommend using heads off a 315 or 325 Dodge hemi as they breath much better. My machinist told me the original 241 heads need enough work that I'd just as well get the newer heads as sink money in the inferior heads.

 

I've located a pair for sale and I'm hoping someone can advise me as to whether they reasonable for this. He says they are part number 1630129, from a 315 truck motor and the same as a car head. Can anyone tell me if this is correct?

 

Thanks much,

Gene

[Adam H P15 D30]

Gene,

 

I would suggest to PM TR Waters here on the forum.  He does come here from time to time and is probably one of the most knowledgeable people on early Hemi's that I can think of.  Also I would suggest to go to the HAMB and they have an EXTENSIVE section on HEMI tech in the technical area af their forum.

[mrwrstory]

A quick look at my reference does not yield this PN.  What I found in Ron Ceridono's HEMI Book is that a 315 truck Hemi head should be

PN 129 315.  That's not absolute as the info is "qualified".  The only number that I could find that was close was 1630 029 and that was for a 315 "Poly head",...not what you want.  

We have a member on this forum, from Wash.,(user name escapes me) who may chime in.  He's in the biz and should be able to confirm or refute my comment.  Hot Heads as well should be able to provide a knowledgable response to your question.

Let us know.

Edited February 7, 2013 by mrwrstory

[wayfarer]

If you get a photo of the casting number I'd like to see it.

 

http://www.qualityengineeredcomponents.com/?page_id=240

[mrwrstory]

If you get a photo of the casting number I'd like to see it.

 

http://www.qualityengineeredcomponents.com/?page_id=240

This is the guy.  Wash.????? Sorry  Gary, I shoulda remembered OR.  

[TR Waters]

The 315 truck should be casting number 1628129 or 1828129. Depending on application, they could also have the sodium filled exhaust valves.

[austinsailor]

The person with them for sale said this:

"Hi Gene, They are 56 # 1630129 dodge truck, same as the car heads. Thanks"

 

Then he sent the attached page from something, and those numbers match the page above. (Well, I'd attach it but it goes away as it is uploaded. The new site is giving me fits!)

 

To make it more complicated I've been offered another set from a 57 kD500 325 ci, more money, of course.

[austinsailor]

Sorry, no casting number yet, but I'll ask him.

 

Gene

[mrwrstory]

To make it more complicated I've been offered another set from a 57 kD500 325 ci, more money, of course.

Diff. source, right?  First one sounds a little suspicious.  Exclusive of the valves, KD500 heads are the same heads as the 315s.  If they're costing more and your considering it, then why not the whole engine?  The 325 is a very desirable engine.  You're finding that all it takes to make a 241 into a 325 is $$$$$$$$$$$.

[austinsailor]

Here are pictures of the first set of heads from a 315 truck motor.

 

He wants $800 for the  325 heads or $2000 for the whole motor. You're right, it's just money. Eventually you run out, though!

[wayfarer]

Here are pictures of the first set of heads from a 315 truck motor.

 

He wants $800 for the  325 heads or $2000 for the whole motor. You're right, it's just money. Eventually you run out, though!

 

...waaaaay too much, unless you have extra to throw around.

 

 

What, exactly, is wrong with your 241 heads?  We have built plenty of 241-260-270 engines with the smaller heads and they run just fine.  You only have 241 inches.

For $800 I'll sell you some forged pistons that will more than make up for the supposedly deficient heads.

Edited February 8, 2013 by wayfarer

[mrwrstory]

Jesus!!!! That's a lot of $$$$$$$$$$$! Those expensive heads need a lot of work too. Doesn't that make your originals look better? Looking back to your first entry, I see again that Hot Heads recommends the 315/325 heads as they flow better. No arguement there however,.......... I assume you are not going racing. On the 241, the stock heads are plenty good, especially if you do a little port matching and slightly larger valves. Valves are part of the recondition anyway. No problem with the bigger better flowing 315/325 heads except that they will compromise low RPM torque. They only really are a benefit on a 241 when a cam and multiple carbs or FI, and high RPM are part of the goal,....like at Bonneville.

[dezeldoc]

Man oh man i tell ya...i could not even get 500.00 for my 354 that was a lot cleaner than than that motor and yet once again someone is willing to lay down that much $$$ for one....amazing. Oh well makes me feel better about sending mine to the scrapper when i moved.

Edited February 8, 2013 by dezeldoc

[austinsailor]

I talked at length with the fellow with the 325. Turns out he is quite knowledgeable. He deals in hemis, has about 25 in stock right now.

The short story is, the 315 heads will probably add 30 or so hp. The motor will sound and look the same, I'm not racing, my wife had her Vette a year and didn't know there was another half a 4 bbl available, so that 30 hp for $1000+ wouldn't be worth it. I told my machinist to go ahead with the original heads.

I also learned a 450 cfm bbl will work quite well, the 3 dueces I'd planned on is too much.

So, thanks for all the feedback, I'm now full speed ahead with the original heads.

Gene

[Taylormade]

Gene,

Since I sold you the motor, I'm glad the original heads are going to work for you.  Keep us updated on the rebuild, I'd love to see how it turns out.

[wayfarer]

I won't belabour the subject, but...30hp? 

He's blowing smoke up your skirt. With larger combustion chambers you will lose compression...and with cast pistons you are lucky to have 7:1 to start. Perhaps he meant that you would lose 30hp...

 

Yes, a small 4bbl in the 450 range will work. The Offy 2x2 is also a good package.

[mrwrstory]

Austin, I definitely think you made the right choice, retaining the smaller heads.

[austinsailor]

The thing I failed to mention is that I'm having new pistons made that will be 10:1 regardless of which heads I picked. That is one reason I needed to sort out the head issue so the pistons will be correct for the heads. I'm also having the cam reground, I have to figure out the specs on that. It will probably be simple when I talk to a few knowledgeable people.

10 to one, 4 bbl, hotter cam and headers - I think it'll be sweet. Not a big blown 392, but pretty cool for this country boy.

[austinsailor]

I do have another question. Somewhere along the way it was suggested I put in larger valves.

Has anyone done this? Any idea which valves to use? Any thoughts? I'll most likely need new valves, guides and seats so this is the time.

[wayfarer]

...for the small Dodges we often use valves from a gm engine...your machinist should be able to identify the interchange.

 

The actual condition of your cam core will determine what profiles you can choose from but most often .420 lift and dur around 210 at 50 will be the max.  You will also require adjustable pushrods.

[austinsailor]

Even with new hydronic lifters?

[wayfarer]

...what, if anything, has your engine builder told you about putting this project together? What kind of shop does he operate? Does he regularily rebuild old odd-ball engines (flatheads, early Cad-Olds-Studebaker, etc)?  Is this his first EarlyHEMI? Does he pay the rent by working on shiverlays?

 

No, you don't have to use adjustable pushrods with hydraulic lifters, BUT, the pushrods will then have to be custom made for the exact length after the engine is assembled (otherwise, how could you measure the gap?)

 

As soon as you remove metal from a head, or the deck or the camshaft or the tip of the valve, or interchange a foreign valve into the mix or set the valve head too deep (bad idea) or if it is an older convex head and sits proud, or use a new design lifter, and and and......

The rocker arms themselves also add into the mix...they are scheduled for a rebuild...right?

 

Would you or your builder actually expect the pushrod to remain useable with so many potential changes? The 'puck' in the hydraulic lifter has a very limited range where it will operate efficiently (and yes, some folks push not only their luck but also the limit) and most knowledgeable folks in the cam/lifter industry will agree that the pre-load on the puck needs to be in the 0.040" to 0.060" range (measured off of the snap ring).

 

 Ya got me a little more than concerned at this point...

[fstfish66]

lots of guys run the 3 carb set ups on the 241 hemi motors,,its only an air valve,, if the carbs are tuned and JETTED properly they will make good power and driveability,,  i have a 241, stock compresion 7.1 reground cam,headers,adjustable push rods,and hard to find factory iron 4 bbl intake, running a  500 cfm AFB  in a 1940 dodge coupe, 904 tranny,  8 3/4 rear  323 gear, at  80 mph with way more pedal left and the A/C on on the interstate i got 18 mpg...  car has  mopar electronic dizzy that has not been set for proper advance yet and still runs great for a small displacement motor,,

[austinsailor]

Wayfarer, don't get too concerned. I didn't ask my builder about the lifters yet. It'll be interesting what his answer is. Your post points out more things I need to get multiple answers on to be sure. Even if it's not right it's all bolt on stuff that can be changed, not like a botched shaft grind or whatever.

But, to answer your question about what he works on, today I saw a model a engine nearly done, a model a transmission in the works, 2 flathead ford v8s, a model t motor, a 30s shiverlay, several other old flatheads, a monster 2 cylinder diesel, and a brand spanking new 350 crank for some project not visible.

I asked him about bigger valves this evening and he discourages it. He knows how I drive and says it would help at higher rpms, but would hurt on the low end where I'd usually be.

But, I might get deeper into hemi motors than I'd planned. Someone offered me 5 of them this evening at a reasonable price. A 241, a 270, a 315 and 2 Desotos. What's a guy to do?

[fstfish66]

Wayfarer, don't get too concerned. I didn't ask my builder about the lifters yet. It'll be interesting what his answer is. Your post points out more things I need to get multiple answers on to be sure. Even if it's not right it's all bolt on stuff that can be changed, not like a botched shaft grind or whatever.

But, to answer your question about what he works on, today I saw a model a engine nearly done, a model a transmission in the works, 2 flathead ford v8s, a model t motor, a 30s shiverlay, several other old flatheads, a monster 2 cylinder diesel, and a brand spanking new 350 crank for some project not visible.

I asked him about bigger valves this evening and he discourages it. He knows how I drive and says it would help at higher rpms, but would hurt on the low end where I'd usually be.

But, I might get deeper into hemi motors than I'd planned. Someone offered me 5 of them this evening at a reasonable price. A 241, a 270, a 315 and 2 Desotos. What's a guy to do?

some guys have all the luck,,,hemi,s just falling out of the sky,,,i wouldnt mind any one of those,,,