Gen Reg Batt Starter relationships

[pflaming]

For months I could start and run my truck off my six volt battery before I had to recharge it. I connected up the generator and now a few cranks and the battery won't turn the engine over. Could there be a major power drain somewhere. Frustrated!

[Dave72dt]

Sure.  cutouts in the regulator can do it as well as not regularly running the truck.  Seems corrosion builds faster on terminals when they don't have power going through them.  recheck your bat terminals.

[P15-D24]

Do a capacity check on your battery with a hydrometer. If the battery is fully charged start checking cables.  

When engine starts does the ammeter show a high rate of charge for 4-6 minutes then drop off to just a few amps?

[pflaming]

When it was running, I was getting a neg reading so I may have the amp connected backward. Yet the amp needle responded when the rpm's increased, but then the fuel pump went out. . . The battery is on the charger for overnight, then check with an hydrometer, clean all connections and . . . One cable shows some green, it's not an old cable, maybe replace that? "Tommorrow, tommorrow, tommorrow creeps on this petty pace . . . " (Shakespeare).

Edited January 29, 2013 by pflaming

[Jeff Balazs]

Paul;

Here is an easy way to determine if you have a draw or short. Disconnect the negative battery terminal and make sure all switches are in the off position.....including the ignition. Brush the negative cable against the battery terminal. If it arc's some you have a draw somewhere. Then do a process of elimination disconnecting one item at a time......recheck until you identify the offending item. I suggest you start with things you have recently worked on.

Hope this helps.

Jeff

[pflaming]

I did have an arc when I connected. Thank you! I will attend to that in the morning.

[Jeff Balazs]

Paul;

There you go. With no draw (load) or short it should not arc. It is a simple way to test. Not absolutely fool proof ...... but it will generally get you to the problem if you are patient. Another little tip....the larger the draw .... the brighter the arc.

I am certain you will find it.

Jeff

[48Dodger]

Safer way is to get a test light.

After complete shutdown, clamp the light between the Neg cable and the Batt.

If the light is still on...start pulling fuses etc. til it goes out.

Test lights are cheap.

 

48D

[pflaming]

These insights to this topic are invaluable to me. However, when I returned to the truck, I did NOT have spark at the battery, So I removed the # 10 wire from the starter to the armeter to see if I had a live starter and discovered the starter is bad. Now I'm trying to get those starter bolts out,

 

I 'inchy, inchy'ed' the top one out, but then discovered that my new Cherokee MC restricts access to the bottom bolt. I haven't figured out how to get that bolt out, I'm not going to loosen that MC.

 

I wonder, could one replace those bolts with allen head bolts? There isn.t room for a socket but maybe an allen wrench would work. I thought I was ready for DMV, VERY FRUSTRATING!

[ggdad1951]

as long as you can get the right torque on allen heads I'd think you'd be able to do that, use a SHCS and you should be ok for head height as well.

[Dave72dt]

These insights to this topic are invaluable to me. However, when I returned to the truck, I did NOT have spark at the battery, So I removed the # 10 wire from the starter to the armeter to see if I had a live starter and discovered the starter is bad. Now I'm trying to get those starter bolts out,

 

I 'inchy, inchy'ed' the top one out, but then discovered that my new Cherokee MC restricts access to the bottom bolt. I haven't figured out how to get that bolt out, I'm not going to loosen that MC.

 

I wonder, could one replace those bolts with allen head bolts? There isn.t room for a socket but maybe an allen wrench would work. I thought I was ready for DMV, VERY FRUSTRATING!

You may want to double check the battery to see if it's still "live" before coercing that bolt out of the starter.  It won't arc and the starter won't turn if the batt is dead or the ground wire pulled.

[Don Coatney]

Safer way is to get a test light.

After complete shutdown, clamp the light between the Neg cable and the Batt.

If the light is still on...start pulling fuses etc. til it goes out.

Test lights are cheap.

 

48D

Pictured is the test 48D is talking about. His recommendation to use a test light is dead on. Using a Fluke meter as shown below will give you a false reading as the sensitevity of the meter is much greater than a test light.

 

[Jeff Balazs]

Paul;

The test light rig that Tim & Don are talking about is definitely the way to go. Just remember anytime you do get an arc at the battery terminal you have a problem.

 

I was just looking at the starter/ Cherokee M/C arrangement on my truck. This area is probably my least favorite part of the truck. Lots going on in an akward spot.

It is a tight reach to be sure for access to the bottom bolt.

It may be possible to use one of those open end wrench attachments than fit on a 3/8" extension to get this bolt out. It is not a tool that you will use often but sets are available fairly cheap at a lot of auto parts stores. They are a bit clumsy to use but if it works it beats removing the M/C.

 

Jeff

[pflaming]

I put a hot 6 volt batt on the starter and a hot 12 volt and no dice. So I removed it, The bottom bolt comes out from the bottom, but I don't know how I'm going to get it back in.  I cannot get my hand in the space to start the bolt!!!!!! I may have to loosen up the Cherookee MC enough to get in. Bummer.

[Dave72dt]

A set of mechanical fingers should get the bolt up in there and then a pair of screwdrivers- one to apply a little pressure and one for pushing against the flats of the bolt ot turn it.

[pflaming]

I'm going to show my ignorance in asking, what is a mechanical finger, my hand? I have an extra starter. I jump cabled each from a hot 6 V batt. The extra spun very nicely, the one I removed did also, then a friend who KNOWS old cars came be and had me spin the removed one longer and it started to act up. He said that once it had to work, i.e., turn the engine the heat would expand the insides so they would ground out and stop. So I've found that problem.

I'm still going to have both professionally tested before anything goes back in. He looked at my '53 vert and was very impressed. Makes a novice feel better.

[Dave72dt]

mechanical fingers are basically a long, flexible grabbing tool, non magnetic, to fish small parts, bolts, wrenches , etc out of hard to reach areas,  either a 2 fingered or 4.  I prefer the 2 fingered, especially for installing bolts  A long handled, needle nose pliers might do the same job for you.    You can often find them in the bargain bins at harware stores.  Another opportunity to buy more tools!

 

 

Snap-on calls it a pickup tool -claw.  snapontools.com

Edited January 31, 2013 by Dave72dt

[pflaming]

I devised this to remove and replace those nasty starter bolts. I did it on a mill, had a friend do it for me. Now I can tape this in place, put the starter in place and make the task a bit easier.

 

Edit: The bolt is too long. The correct bolt would be a full 1/2 " shorter. When I install this I'm going to put a short dowel in the top hole to get the starter positioned, then put in the lower bolt. That should make things a lot easier. Wish me luck, will report back.

Edited May 16, 2018 by pflaming

[pflaming]

IT"S RUNNING! I think my starter problem was a combination of: very worn brushes, a weak cable to the starter, a battery the barely held a charge. So I now have a new larger battery, a new cable, and a starter with good brushes and it spins like a top. I hated to get that new battery, but . . . a big thank you to members who walked me through this.

[Dave72dt]

You might as well get after that trun signal problem.  It's a law here that any safety devices installed have to work whether they came with them or not.  You wouldn't by chance have the front and rear turn signal wires reversed for thay side?

[pflaming]

Turn signals, I think my problem is minor, maybe only the flasher, I just lost 'electrical' patience. Does that make sense?

[pflaming]

Trouble shooting is a crazy, but no way to avoid task. My batt showed good but weak, one cable looked OK but with question mark, so I put on a 12 volt batt and all worked fine. I the got a new battery ($100) and a new cable hooked it all up and BINGO. It appears that sometimes all the components may check out yet the system in total is too weak.

Drove the truck to a car club evening at a member's shop. About 25 guys there. Got a lot of 'attaboys' but no trophy. They liked seeing something other than Fords and Chevys. First drive at night!!!!!