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Retarded Timing Chain stretch??


ruckusus

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The Old 44 has me puzzled. She chuggs and ALMOST starts, but doesn't. Here are the clues:

1944 truck. Yes, they did make a few rationed rigs during the war. This is one of those rare beasts. It puttered to a halt around 1970 and has been sitting ever since.

Older rebuilt flathead with "Nubuilt" tag. 251 bored 40 over. Compression is mediocre, but not terrible. 70's, 80's, 95 cold dry. With a teaspoon (ok, maybe a quarter-cup) of ATF they have all been over 110. I think the motor just needs to run a bit to reseal the rings. Last year I got it started and idled very smooth and slow but couldn't rev AT ALL without dying. I figured it was the carb. Took apart, cleaned, reassembled. Accel pump now functions with a good squirt. maybe too good. Could be flooding. To eliminate that option I unhooked the fuel to carb and manually squirt in a bit before attempting to start. Most rigs will fire up and run for 30 sec then die using this technique. This one half-fires, but can't quite get going. wer, wer, chu chu chu, wer wer chu chupity chu etc.. no backfiring.

Here is the actual problem I am seeing. I have spark, but even if I rotate the distributor as far as the bolt will allow it is still 5 deg AFTER TDC. Could this be caused by a stretched timing chain? Anyone see this before? Should I egg out the adjustment plate for a bit more advance? Should it still run at 5 after or is this too much for a tired motor with compression and fuel also out of whack? I was going to shoot for TDC spark just to get it going.

I don't care about power, just getting it to start would be very nice.

Also, I am using the Champion J11c plugs. I notice in the glove compartment they had K12Y. The tip protrudes a lot more which means they are a bit hotter. correct? Can hotter plugs help fire a tired engine? I am not pulling long hills, just want to putter over to the neighbors for a load of compost.

Thanks for any suggestions. :)

ps. Here is the truck...

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double check your firing order It it caughs and pops you might have it correct but one tower off, or it might be 180 out. If factory indexed TDC for #1 should have the rotor at the 7 oclock position. I had mine correct but one off and it would chug and pop but not start.

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Also the plate that the dist adjusts on is adjustable to the dist body. There is a second nut almost opposite the one you are seeing.

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Firing order and wire positions confirmed. 153624 starting at 7oclock (to the right of the cap clip) and moving clockwise. The wires are cut to length and loomed, so they are impossible to switch. They are very stiff like solid copper or something.

It DID idle quiet and butter smooth last year. But died instantly if any throttle was tried. Could this have been timing related instead of carb as I assumed?

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Yes double check the firing order it is real easy to mess them up especially switching #3 and #4 (my favorite trick).

You could also have gummed up spark plugs. This is common when starting an old motor for the first time. If they get coated with oil and old gas they can get a dark glaze on them that seems to conduct electricity and drain off the spark. The only cure I have found is sandblasting. I have a little spot blaster used for bodywork. It plugs onto the air hose, it has a pot like a paint gun for the sand and a cloth bag that catches the used sand. They come with a set of rubber nozzles, the round one is perfect for spark plugs.

If you sandblast your plugs blow them clean with air then inspect under a strong light. There is usually a couple of pieces of grit stuck inside, pick them out with a needle ( I use a plug gapping tool). File the center electrode square and gap the plugs a little smaller for easy starting.

How is your choke working? Your truck probably has a hand throttle as well as a hand choke, they must be set right to get it to start. Usually half to full choke depending on temps and throttle barely pulled out.

Did you clean the points? If you disturbed their setting you will need to retime the motor, even changing the gap will put the timing off.

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Also the plate that the dist adjusts on is adjustable to the dist body. There is a second nut almost opposite the one you are seeing.

REALLY? now that is a really good piece of news. The gunk on this thing was/is obscene. :eek: I will search for the second bolt and report back.

Thanks!

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Now if it is not running...how did you determine the timing is 5 ATDC?

I would check to see if the breaker plate is free. The IGS distributor had a large bearing and this was loaded with grease which over time turns to cement and will not let the breaker plate move to advance the timing. The latter , mid 1949 introduction, IAT distributors had a friction pivot point which solved the problem of this sticking.

Remove the cap...place your THUMB on the side of the condensor and you index finger on the side of the electrical connection for the points and rotate the plate...now it will only move about a quarter of an inch and should move with ease...if it does not move easily it is gummed up...you can spray some WD40 on the bearing to free it but it is best to remove distributor, clean and regrease the bearing

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[quote name=

It DID idle quiet and butter smooth last year. But died instantly if any throttle was tried. [/quote]

There is a wire in the distributor that moves each time you use the throttle . It moves with the plate . This wire has been a problem with many vehicles . See if the wire somehow shorts out by touching something or see if the wire disconnects when the plate moves . This would explain your OK idle and no higher RPM .

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Wow, thanks everybody! :)

The secret bolt on the backside was the trick. I was able to then get more adjustment range and even reset the tick marks on the left side tag back to TDC at TDC so now it works like intended. I left it at about 4Deg BTDC. Is this best for easy starting?

I threw in some gas and got "chu pity chu pity pity pity chu chu". A slight improvement, but not quite there yet. I still get the sense the spark is present, but kinda weak. I was thinking of trying coil, cap, rotor, wires, and maybe hotter plugs. Pertronix? Are they sensitive to falling below 4v or something? HEI conversion? I feel like I am a bit grasping at straws. Lots of folks change all that stuff like crazy, but I have had very good luck with many crazy old trucks that fire right up and run great on super old sketchy stuff that has been sitting for decades.

Any opinions on running super hot plugs? Other recommendations? Hit it with starting fluid?

I want to order the carb kit, but it has a special industrial B&B with a funny accelerator pump (I think). Anyone know if the regular kit will work?

Thanks again.

Now if it is not running...how did you determine the timing is 5 ATDC?

Rotate fan blade till rotor is JUST past #4 (6:00). Turn on key. Continue turning blade slow until you see spark from #1 wire (unhooked) to ground (plug top or block). Look at timing marks on pulley. If you go back and forth, make sure to go back far enough that when you go forward all the slack is out.

If you want a little more excitement do it with everything hooked up. Since you are going slow it PROBABLY won't start, but you will get a little tickle up your spine when you hear it go "click woosh" and the fan blade jerks just a bit.

If you have a helper just have them hold the #1 wire end while you turn the fan blade. They will let you know if and when the spark happens... just wait for them to jump and scream holy muther... :eek:

Cheers :)

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There is a wire in the distributor that moves each time you use the throttle . It moves with the plate . This wire has been a problem with many vehicles . See if the wire somehow shorts out by touching something or see if the wire disconnects when the plate moves . This would explain your OK idle and no higher RPM .

Hmmm.. How does it move when you move the throttle? A linkage? Didn't notice that. I'll go look. There was a little sketchy thread-bare wire in there that I wrapped in electricians tape. It just looked like a 2nd ground or something. Is it required?

Vacuum advance seems to be working ( it wiggles when I suck on it).

Is it possible it was dying because it was way retarded enough to barely run?

Good Ideas, You guys are really helping. Thanks :)

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Did you inspect the plugs? Are they coated with black oily deposits? Do these deposits defy your efforts to clean them off? After cleaning, are the plugs still dingy and dirty looking?

If so you need new plugs or you need to sandblast the old ones. I prefer to clean the old ones, get the motor running, then replace the plugs as part of a complete tuneup (if the motor is worth a tuneup).

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Yaw hooooo!! :D

On a hunch, I tried a different coil from the pile in the garage.

chu chu poof poof poof bada boom varoom! chu chu

While short-lived on the squirt of gas, that was better rpms than ever before. I think the timing was way too retarded.

Hooking back up carb... Will report back.

Really lots of thanks! :)

Any hints on where to get a carb kit??

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Ok, forget the different coil. That wasn't it AT ALL.

I got it to almost barely run and then heard a weird pressurized sound from the tailpipe (through the batt tray hole in the floor). THE MUFFLER!!

Quick like a cat I undid the coat hanger that held it on and wrestled it off using the redneck wrench (my bare hands). Twisting it free, there, sticking out of the now strait-pipe was solid packing of MOUSE HOUSE! Pulled out a big wad of gook and carbon and more stuffing till it was empty.

Went around and hit the starter. Not even a full crank. VAROOOOMM!!!!! Six cylinders of flathead muscle ready and at your service SIR!

Shut it down and putting the new hoses on. This thing runs like new money! (ok, it runs like OLD money).

I'll post a vid of it running here shortly (the wife just got home and the kids are covered in mud and the house is dirty cause it just took me 2 FOOL years to find the oldest trick in the book)

And let that be a lesson to all of ya... :rolleyes:

Thanks again everybody!

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Hmmm.. How does it move when you move the throttle? A linkage? Didn't notice that. I'll go look. There was a little sketchy thread-bare wire in there that I wrapped in electricians tape. It just looked like a 2nd ground or something. Is it required?

Vacuum advance seems to be working ( it wiggles when I suck on it).

Is it possible it was dying because it was way retarded enough to barely run?

Good Ideas, You guys are really helping. Thanks :)

Glad you found the problem . The plate in the distributor moves because of the vacuum advance .

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While on the subject of timing, I wonder if I could get some opinions on setting this initial timing on my original, 76000 mile bone stock 1950 Dodge Meadowbrook's 230. Would I notice any improvement in torque, or startability if I advanced the timing?

The book says 0 advance @ idle. Would resetting it to say, 5 or 10 degrees BTDC, considering today's gas has higher octane than in 1950, be unadvisable? Is spark knock pretty easy to detect on these engines?

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