49 Plymouth want dual master cylinder

[norville]

James49ply: There have been several postings on this type of MC upgrade; most I have read as well as my own "new" MC installation had one main drawback; the filler cap of the new MC was above the floor level, centered in front of the front seat. This then requires a "cover" which results in a raised "lump" in the front floorboard !!!( see my and several other threads ) Cass, alias littlemo... Add: Maybe we can get falconvan to "mass-produce" that new bracket???

Welder series already makes a bracket that might work. It's only $21 if you don;t have the tools to cut and bend thicker metal. You will have to weld it to the frame

[norville]

I did get my ECI bracket and MC today. I am impressed with the quality of the the unit , the welds look great. It's almost installed, due to time constraints(wife/kids) I was unable to finish. I have about 1.5 hours in it and all I have left is to bleed the master, make a new hole in the floor and hook up the lines. Maybe another 1.5 hours. That was removing my old leaking unit also.

The only "issues" I had so far is I believe my body may be closer to the frame than the car the bracket was set up for. The unit was a little snug to the body. And I mixed up the location of the rods and the unit was binding up, once I read the directions everything fit fine. The is no pedal stop, but I;m not really bothered with that. I do have to find a pedal rubber stopped thingy I'm just not finding a good source for parts.

Overall so far I'm happy with it. This looks like a mustang master and they provided me with a residual valve.

bob

[Don Coatney]

I did get my ECI bracket and MC today. I am impressed with the quality of the the unit , the welds look great. It's almost installed, due to time constraints(wife/kids) I was unable to finish. I have about 1.5 hours in it and all I have left is to bleed the master, make a new hole in the floor and hook up the lines. Maybe another 1.5 hours. That was removing my old leaking unit also.

The only "issues" I had so far is I believe my body may be closer to the frame than the car the bracket was set up for. The unit was a little snug to the body. And I mixed up the location of the rods and the unit was binding up, once I read the directions everything fit fine. The is no pedal stop, but I;m not really bothered with that. I do have to find a pedal rubber stopped thingy I'm just not finding a good source for parts.

Overall so far I'm happy with it. This looks like a mustang master and they provided me with a residual valve.

bob

I agree the quality of the bracket and the welds are impressive.

Just one residual valve? I believe you need two. How is the side to side pedal play? With no pedal stop how will your pedals (both brake and clutch) stop on the up swing? What is the pedal rubber stopped thingy you are looking for? What side of the master cylinder do your lines connect? Frame side, or bellhousing side?

[norville]

Don, I have a 51 so there's only one pedal mounted to my bracket. When I called, I told them I have a fluid drive manual shift and separate brake and clutch pivots. This is a different bracket than yours it's cut for the trans mount.. I believe they have 4-5 different chrysler brackets now. There's maybe a 1/16" side to side play. I'm still using drum/drums the master is a drum/disc master and should have residual valve in it.

I have a square rubber bumper on the back side of my floor where the pedals come through. The clutch is there the brake is beat up. My clutch hits this rubber on the up stroke. May brake lines connect on the tranny side.

[Chester Brzostowski]

Don, I have a 51 so there's only one pedal mounted to my bracket. When I called, I told them I have a fluid drive manual shift and separate brake and clutch pivots. This is a different bracket than yours it's cut for the trans mount.. I believe they have 4-5 different chrysler brackets now. There's maybe a 1/16" side to side play. I'm still using drum/drums the master is a drum/disc master and should have residual valve in it.

Bob,

Does your 51 have dual brake cylinders on the front wheels and single cylinders on the rear wheels ? If so why can’t this setup be used with a 48 P15. ECI told me after researching the issue that the Mustang master wouldn’t work and they had no conversion for a P15 with Drum to Drum brakes ??? I have talked with them on 3 separate occasions. Just recently when this post first appeared. If I may ask what year Mustang master ? I assume the residual valve is on the front brake line ?

Tks, Chet…

[norville]

Bob,

Does your 51 have dual brake cylinders on the front wheels and single cylinders on the rear wheels ? If so why can’t this setup be used with a 48 P15. ECI told me after researching the issue that the Mustang master wouldn’t work and they had no conversion for a P15 with Drum to Drum brakes ??? I have talked with them on 3 separate occasions. Just recently when this post first appeared. If I may ask what year Mustang master ? I assume the residual valve is on the front brake line ?

Tks, Chet…

You've got me Chet. I have not pulled off the front drum yet. PO said they were recently serviced. I do not know the factory configuration. All I can say is that I did specifically ask the guy on the phone about using my factory Drums. That's why I got the residual valve.

I'm not sure of the year but when I was searching to do a "home brew" setup any 1" disc/drum (adding res valve) or a drum/drum try a 1966-68. It could also be called a Jeep Master cylinder or ford truck. I have not measured it but it should be a 1" bore?? I apologize if my comment sounded like a statement about it being a mustang master cylinder but, it's definitely not a corvette master.

I'm not sure why they said it would not work for you. I had even commented that eventually I would be upgrading to front discs a but didn't have the cash to do that yet. I just listed all the issues I'd had read here and confirmed over the phone when ordering.

Who did you speak with? Mark or the other guy(sorry forgot name). It was Mark that I spoke to the second time when I had a question about the included hardware. The "other guy" answered my questions first call and took my order on the second call. Hey for all I know I got screwed here..

[Young Ed]

Bob,

Does your 51 have dual brake cylinders on the front wheels and single cylinders on the rear wheels ? If so why can’t this setup be used with a 48 P15. ECI told me after researching the issue that the Mustang master wouldn’t work and they had no conversion for a P15 with Drum to Drum brakes ??? I have talked with them on 3 separate occasions. Just recently when this post first appeared. If I may ask what year Mustang master ? I assume the residual valve is on the front brake line ?

Tks, Chet…

Yes stock 51 plymouth will have the same setup as a 48. I believe it was used at least 46-54 if not longer.

[Don Coatney]

Is this a picture of the square rubber bumper you mentioned? If so this is not a pedal stop it is a dust and dirt seal that floats with the pedal. Ths second picture is a pedal stop. It is adjustable to limit the upward travel so the pedal does not hammer the floor pan. Does your car have a clutch pedal overcenter spring?

[norville]

Yes Don, that looks like the rubber bumper thing, but mine looks a little smaller. I found it listed in a catalog I think it's a "draft seal" . I'm sure if I have a clutch pedal over center spring.

Although my old master looks like your master the pedal setup is much , much different. I don;t think the brake pedals themselves would interchange. Also my stock pedal stop was is not adjustable, it was just a cast tab, and I don;t remember if it was hitting the casting in on my master. I didn't check prior.

[Don Coatney]

Yes Don, that looks like the rubber bumper thing, but mine looks a little smaller. I found it listed in a catalog I think it's a "draft seal" . I'm sure if I have a clutch pedal over center spring.

Although my old master looks like your master the pedal setup is much , much different. I don;t think the brake pedals themselves would interchange. Also my stock pedal stop was is not adjustable, it was just a cast tab, and I don;t remember if it was hitting the casting in on my master. I didn't check prior.

Draft seal is correct. I dont understand your overcenter spring response.

The adjustable part is on the pedal as pictured below. It hits the cast tab on the stock master cylinder as pictured below. What I pictured in the prior posting is how I modified the new ECI bracket to add a pedal stop.

[norville]

My pedal is covered with a thick gooey rust inhibitor AKA excess grease I saw your modification for the stop, I like it.

My pedal is the one in the background of that pedal pic.

I don;t know what you were asking about this in the above prior post "clutch pedal over center spring ".

[Don Coatney]

Clutch over center spring. Does your car have one?

[Chester Brzostowski]

You've got me Chet. I have not pulled off the front drum yet. PO said they were recently serviced. I do not know the factory configuration. All I can say is that I did specifically ask the guy on the phone about using my factory Drums. That's why I got the residual valve.

I'm not sure of the year but when I was searching to do a "home brew" setup any 1" disc/drum (adding res valve) or a drum/drum try a 1966-68. It could also be called a Jeep Master cylinder or ford truck. I have not measured it but it should be a 1" bore?? I apologize if my comment sounded like a statement about it being a mustang master cylinder but, it's definitely not a corvette master.

I'm not sure why they said it would not work for you. I had even commented that eventually I would be upgrading to front discs a but didn't have the cash to do that yet. I just listed all the issues I'd had read here and confirmed over the phone when ordering.

Who did you speak with? Mark or the other guy(sorry forgot name). It was Mark that I spoke to the second time when I had a question about the included hardware. The "other guy" answered my questions first call and took my order on the second call. Hey for all I know I got screwed here..

Hi Bob,

Sorry to cause any stress. Did the master they sent you have an ECI part number? If so.., could you let me know what it is? I would greatly appreciate it. Maybe their documentation states what car or truck it was originally for.

I hope this all works out for you. Please keep me informed I am very interested.

Chet…

[norville]

Hi Bob,

Sorry to cause any stress. Did the master they sent you have an ECI part number? If so.., could you let me know what it is? I would greatly appreciate it. Maybe their documentation states what car or truck it was originally for.

I hope this all works out for you. Please keep me informed I am very interested.

Chet…

Chet it's a EC-444 but they have two types so make sure you tell them the vehicle and clutch configuration. I have a 1951 dodge with fluid drive manual. And no stress, glad I can help, if it really is help..

Here;s the pic of my clutch assembly Don

[Chester Brzostowski]

Yes stock 51 plymouth will have the same setup as a 48. I believe it was used at least 46-54 if not longer.

Ed,

I am finding this very odd. Why would this setup work on a 51 and not a 48 if they use the same 6 drum cylinders?

Maybe Don scared them away from supporting P15. He did say his disk drum setup would work just fine and it comes with the correct master. It seems the main concern was the 4 cylinders used in the front along with the 2 cylinders used in the rear. He said the P15 master pushed more fluid and he didn’t know of a duel master that could match it.

Don,

Could you check the bore on one of those old style P15 masters you have. Maybe it is bigger then 1 inch maybe 1.125 Maybe that’s the issue.

Chet...

[DCurrent]

I cannot take credit for this, found this on an earlier thread that someone did to thier car, I am planning on doing the same to mine, looks like it will work great without haveing to remake the pedal support.

This to me looks like a nice setup. I'm just curious how far back is the new master. Does the seat interfear with filling the master?

Darren

[norville]

This to me looks like a nice setup. I'm just curious how far back is the new master. Does the seat interfear with filling the master?

Darren

Mine is not it's about center of the floor. Imagine the new master is mounted to the back of the old master and that's where it will be. I will be looking for a large grommet for the floor , now that you mention it.

[Don Coatney]

Don,

Could you check the bore on one of those old style P15 masters you have. Maybe it is bigger then 1 inch maybe 1.125 Maybe that’s the issue.

Chet...

Chet;

I only have one old master cylinder left and it has a 1" bore. The others had a larger bore but I dont recall the size.

This to me looks like a nice setup. I'm just curious how far back is the new master. Does the seat interfear with filling the master?

Darren

Pictured is the location on my P-15. It is very close to the original.

First picture shows the original master cylinder service hole. Second pictures shows my modification and new lid for the dual chamber service hole.

[Chester Brzostowski]

Don,

I think we are getting to the bottom of the mystery. If all three master cylinders you had were for the p15 then at some point they switched from the smaller bore to the larger bore or visa versa. The point being is, if the wheel cylinders didn't change then Bob's 51 setup will work with my car. This may be good news for me.

Chet...

[Don Coatney]

Don,

I think we are getting to the bottom of the mystery. If all three master cylinders you had were for the p15 then at some point they switched from the smaller bore to the larger bore or visa versa. The point being is, if the wheel cylinders didn't change then Bob's 51 setup will work with my car. This may be good news for me.

Chet...

Chet;

I was told long ago that use of the 1" bore master cylinder on a P-15 would work well with less pedal pressure required than the standard bore. As you recall I was also told by ECI that with my drum/disc setup (using larger disc calipers that come with the ECI bolt on kit) that I would not have enough strength in my leg to push my pedal using any master cylinder with a bore larger than 15/16". Also with the ECI setup they use an extended pivot bracket that appears to take away from the mechanical advantage unless I am looking at this wrong. I believe they use this extension due to the required length of master cylinder piston travel.

[Chester Brzostowski]

Chet;

I was told long ago that use of the 1" bore master cylinder on a P-15 would work well with less pedal pressure required than the standard bore. As you recall I was also told by ECI that with my drum/disc setup (using larger disc calipers that come with the ECI bolt on kit) that I would not have enough strength in my leg to push my pedal using any master cylinder with a bore larger than 15/16". Also with the ECI setup they use an extended pivot bracket that appears to take away from the mechanical advantage unless I am looking at this wrong. I believe they use this extension due to the required length of master cylinder piston travel.

Don,

I agree that adding the extension slightly decreased the TMA but I think they lowered this to lower the master so it would fit under the floor.

Anyway…

If I am hearing you correctly you are saying that the P15 should work fine with the stock wheel cylinders and a 1” bore master. The only question that still is unanswered is the volume issue. Does the master push enough fluid in one stroke? If Bob’s setup works the answer would be yes. I need to check the parts book to see if the wheel cylinders are the same for the P15 and the 1951 Plymouth.

Many Thanks and sorry for high jacking the thread.

Chet…

[Niel Hoback]

I think we covered this once before, since the pads do not retract from the discs, it takes very little fluid to squeeze the caliper, probably less than a wheel cylinder in a drum.

Shoes adjusted properly will be close to the drum, but there is clearance there and between the piston and pin and shoe.

[norville]

http://www.classicperform.com/Instructions/BrakeLineKit.htm

INSTALLATION NOTES:

• On Disc front, Drum rear combinations with a single master cylinder, be sure to remove the residual check valve, or purchase a master cylinder without a check valve. You must then install an in-line residual check valve in the line to the rear drum brakes. The valve should be installed on the brake side of the proportioning valve as shown in the diagram.

• When using a dual master cylinder with Disc front, Drum rear combinations you won't need to remove the residual check valve as it only applies pressure to the rear brake line. On dual master cylinders, the large reservoir side is for the disc brakes, and the small reservoir side is for the drum brakes.

• Do not use a residual pressure valve with 4 wheel Disc brake systems. The residual pressure will cause the calipers to drag.

• An adjustable Proportioning valve allows you to balance the pressure between the front and rear brakes for smooth safe stops. This is a must for disc/drum combinations, as disc brakes require considerably more pressure to operate than drum brakes. Without a properly adjusted proportioning valve, the drum brakes will lock up before the discs do which can result in handling problems. Proportioning valves are also useful on 4-wheel disc or 4-wheel drum brake systems, giving you the ability to compensate for tire size differences, weight distribution, etc.

• Make sure that the bleeder valves on the calipers and the power booster point up when installed. Air cannot be fully bled from the system unless the valves are installed in the up position.

• If you do not intend to use a power booster, we recommend that you use a dual master cylinder.