1949 First series...

[Plymouthy Adams]

nla

[Young Ed]

Tim isnt the first series 49 still a P15?

[BobT-47P15]

Far as I know, those early 49s.....that looked like the 46-7-8.....were still a P15. Number should have changed with the body style, when it went to the lovely 3 box design.

The 1949-52 Plymouths remain an enigma to Plymouth fans. While they were and are popular, they are considered by many to be rather unexciting and certainly less than they could have been. It was the dictum of Chrysler's president at the time, K.T. Keller, that his company's cars be practical transportation pieces in which one could sit bolt-upright wearing a hat. Styling based on such a philosophy ran counter to the sleek, straight lines seen on the competition. Although many buyers did appreciate the common sense practicality of these cars and bought them for that, (and a well-deserved reputation for reliability), there were countless other people who abandoned or avoided Plymouth showrooms in favor of those offering more spectacular wares. One can only speculate on how different automotive history might have been had Chrysler offered cars as up-to-date in styling in 1949 as they did in 1955 and 1957, yet with the quality and reliability of the 1949-52 Plymouths.

Be that as it may, these are the cars that were produced at the time, and today they are relatively plentiful and therefore less expensive and easier to restore than many others. And judged on their own merits, they -- especially the 1949s -- can be considered well-styled automobiles. More than one of the uninformed have mistaken my '49 for a vintage Mercedes

[Norm's Coupe]

Tim, they are P15's. The new model didn't officially come out until about the 1st of March 1949. A friend of mine Thomas Russom (see profile) has both a 47 Plymouth 4 door and a 49 Plymouth 4 door. Both exactly alike down to the motor numbers. The 49 starts with P15 also because that's what Chrysler called them until the debut of the later 49 Plymouth.

[Norm's Coupe]

The reason for the delay in the 49 model Plymouth was due to military orders. Chrysler was still resupplying the military with vehicles from those lost in the war. That put Chrysler behind in the retooling for the later 49 Plymouth.

[Dennis Hemingway]

Tim. Ask Mikemaker I think his P15 is a 1949 First series.

Dennis:D

[PatS....]

According to the book "70 Years of Chrysler" the reason for the delay, which affected all 4 lines, was tooling difficulties and material shortages.

The new 1949's appeared about Jan 1 1949.

Retooling for the new 1949 models cost Chrysler Corp 90 million, but they were rewarded with calendar year sales of 1,267,470 cars and trucks which was the highest in it's history.

[Norm's Coupe]

Tim, I don't know Tom's whole serial number on the engine, just that it starts with P15. You would have to PM him to check the serial numbers. Both of Tom's P15's are all original.

That said, I am sitting here looking at the Standard Catalog of American Cars. The numbers you listed are all P15 numbers built between December 1, 1948 and until the first P17 came out the first of March. All of which were to be sold as first series 1949 models and still called P15's. I also have the book The First 70 years of Chrysler. Didn't check that book, but it usually agrees with the Standard Catalog of American Cars. Maybe Jim B just got his wording mixed up when he typed that info that you read.

[Norm's Coupe]

Tim, you may never come up with an answer on the wiring loom question. Just take the P15 as an example. On my P15 I have a lot of the connections under the hood on the firewall. I've seen other P15's with a nice clean looking firewall and everything is under the dash. Which is correct. Who knows, because I've seen other P15 firewalls that look like mine too.

[mikemaker]

as we all know lot of 48 were registered as 49's because that was the year they sold and was customary to be register in like manner. Just looking for an owner with access for verification...

Howdy, indeed I own at 1st series 1949 (what I thought was a P15) business coupe. My serial numbers do in fact fall within your range as my beater was from the Los Angeles plant, sold new in Pasadena less than a mile from my house. My numbers are as follows: 2506XXXX. Engine number (also original and also the registration number on the pink) *P15*99XXXX.

I'm interested in any info you have that says I have a P17?

[49roadster]

The short wheel base second series 1949 Plymouths are the P17's and have a motor # starting with P18 which was the longer wheel base 1949s.

The same is true with the Dodge. The second series short wheel base car was D29 and the motor are stamped D30 which was the long wheel base car.

I have one of each and the factory build sheet to back it up.

[T.Tom Meshingear]

The P17 was the 2nd series short wheelbase business coupe, the steel station wagon and the fastback. Biggest clues from the outside were lack of Mayflower emblem on hood, flush tail lamps mounted low on the rear fender, no chrome around the windshield and backlight and no horn ring.

Also the top was lower so the doors and glass won't interchange.

The P17 also came without a crankshaft dampener or an oil filter and the rear springs came without covers.

In 1950 the P17 became the P19 and the Concord in 1951.

I hope this ends some confusion and not add to it.

[WoodBird]

If memory serves me right, the P-17 (1949), and the P-19 (1950) were always DeLuxe models, not Special DeLuxe's. One of main differences were that the DeLuxe models did not have exterior chrome around the windshield, but only rubber. The interiors also seemed more spartan than the Special Deluxe models. A 1947 Plymouth DeLuxe Business Coupe I once owned also did not have exterior chrome around the windshield, and the basic interior. My 1954 MoPar Master Parts book shows that P-18's and P-20's also came in Deluxe models. As far as short wheelbase's, I owned a 1950, P-20, Special Deluxe Suburban. Again I'm going by my memory, but from the age of 15 in 1967 through the late 1970's I owned Plymouths from 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949 (1st and 2nd series), 1950, 1952, and 1954. At one time I had tried the own all six of the P-15 body options available, but I came up two short (No convertible or two door sedan). I've parted out just as many to keep the others on the road. I enjoy reading all of the posts because there is always something new that can be learned from the P-15 owners. Thanks, Garry.

[eric wissing]

Tim, definitely states that they were marked p17s. The author though also claims that Studes had the bullet nose in 49. I think 50 is the first year with the bullet nose. I like the looks of my P15 because the styling really is prewar. The P17s are cool cars but are not real forward looking. The shoe box ford really looks a lot more modern. I am also very fond of Studes. My first car was 51 bullet nose. eric

[Norm's Coupe]

I thought the domain name for that web site looked familiar so took a look at it. It belongs to Bill Ward. He is also registered on this site and has made some post to the old forum in the past. Someone should send him an email and tell him about the mistake. I'm sure the mistake is just a typo problem in transcribing the information.

[Norm's Coupe]

Tim,

That's why I keep telling people to buy books. There is a lot of information on the web that isn't correct. Just saw on some news show within the last week that some college has told their students not to use Wikpedia (spelling) web site because a lot of it is incorrect. To me, nothing replaces good old fashioned books and been there done that knowledge.

You also can't trust pictures on the web because a lot of those have been altered in some photo editing program. Especially a lot of those funny pictures you see.

[grady hawkins]

Tim

I picked up a early 1949 Dodge and it had the D-24xxxxx number on the motor and I would guess the P-15 was similiar

Grady

[Guest Bill Ward]

I believe it was a typo in my website. However, since I gleaned the information from other sources quite a while ago, I can't be sure why I wrote it up as I did. However, I agree that they logically should not be called P17s, the short wheelbase version of the "2nd Series" - but when did Chrysler do anything logical?

I have a list of body style codes put out by the Plymouth Owners Club that indicates that they were P15s, so I'll go with that. I have already changed my website - hope it is correct now.

THANKS FOR THE CRITIQUE!!! I do the best I can, but sometimes I goof and appreciate the corrections. Please check the new version and let me know if there is anything else that needs correcting. That goes for the rest of the website, too.

My apologies to all for the error.

Bill Ward

www.oldplymouths.com

[Niel Hoback]

Just curious, but what are the theories on why there is no P-16 ?

[Norm's Coupe]

Just curious, but what are the theories on why there is no P-16 ?

My guess is the person doing the numbering couldn't count that high and got confused.

[Don Coatney]

I believe it was a typo in my website. However, since I gleaned the information from other sources quite a while ago, I can't be sure why I wrote it up as I did. However, I agree that they logically should not be called P17s, the short wheelbase version of the "2nd Series" - but when did Chrysler do anything logical?

I have a list of body style codes put out by the Plymouth Owners Club that indicates that they were P15s, so I'll go with that. I have already changed my website - hope it is correct now.

THANKS FOR THE CRITIQUE!!! I do the best I can, but sometimes I goof and appreciate the corrections. Please check the new version and let me know if there is anything else that needs correcting. That goes for the rest of the website, too.

My apologies to all for the error.

Bill Ward

www.oldplymouths.com

Bill;

I have visited your web site many times. No need for you to apolige for anything. You have done much more than most to move the Plymouth heratige forward. Good to see you posting here.

[Guest Bill Ward]

Re: Eric's post - #21 in this thread

Eric, you are correct, the bullet nose wasn't introduced unti 1950 - my bad. However, I remember that when the 46, or was it 47 (I couldn't find a photo of a 46 so I can't be sure), Stude was introduced, a lot of people laughed about a car that "looked the same whether it was coming or going" because of the similarities between the front & back profiles. I personally thought that the Starlight (?) Coupe was one of the cutest cars around.

Anyway, I have corrected my website (again). I do appreciate the correction. Anybody else want to weigh in on errors I might have remaining in my site? I promise that I won't mind making further corrections if necessary.

Bill

[eric wissing]

Bill, great article. I wasn't meaning to knit pick (sp?) The 50 and 51 Starlite Coupes are sharp. The four door models look like an after thought. Eric

[PatS....]

Hi, Bill. Welcome to the forum.

I have a '49 Chrysler and have found your EXCELLENT site very helpful and also entertaining.

Please don't be a stranger here and keep up the great work on your site.

Pat

[Guest Chrycos2]

My guess is the person doing the numbering couldn't count that high and got confused.

The numbers were probably missed due to changed plans on the new model.

Not only did Plymouth jump from P15 to P17/P18, but Dodge jumped from D24/D25 to D29/D30/D31/D32, DeSoto from S11 to S13, and Chrysler from C38/C39/C40 to C45/C46/C47.

Delays on the new models were not caused by any armament production problems, but problems in finalizing the new 1949 models. In September, 1946 Chrysler built two prototypes - a 6-cylinder (Royal/Windsor) and a straight eight (Saratoga/New Yorker).

These two cars had straight through fender lines, much like the 1953 Plymouth and Dodge, running from the front headlights, across the side of the body above the door handles and into the rear fenders. Taillights were mounted flush with the body. The windshield, if the cars were the same width as the production 1949 models, was shallower - meaning the cars were lower than what was to come. They definitely look longer and wider although they were built on the same wheelbase as the 1949 models. The sides of the cars were flat - no separate bulgling fenders.

September, 1946 would have marked the deadline to get a car tooled and in production for the fall of 1948. Production of tools and dies takes upwards of two years for a totally new vehicle. The design was obviously scrapped - perhaps they did not have the obligatory K.T. Keller headroom?

The cars Chrysler did put into production had the front fender line fade into the door almost in line with the door key locks. And judging by the front windshield and side windows, the roof was raised.

Thus the September 1946 models may have been models P16, D26/D27/D28, S12, and C41/C42/C43/C44. As they were scrapped, new model numbers were adopted for the finalized 1949 models.

Also, the 1949 bodies were used right to the end of 1952. The 1951 bodies were not widened, but the windshields were widened by narrowing the A pillar (except the convertibles and hardtops). Check the distance from the outer windshield frame to the outer edge of the A pillar. Note the 1949-50 bodies have an inch or so of space, and the 1951-52 bodies have none. The windshield trim is almost against the drip rail.

Also, the cowl was modified to accept the new front fenders, as were the front doors. If you follow the 1951-52 front fender line into the door, you land up almost in line with the front door handle. Which is also why the 1949-50 front doors will not interchange with the 1951-52 models. That fender top is higher on the 1951-52 doors (and cowl) than on the 1949-50.

Bill

Vancouver, BC