pictures of rear engine mounts please - trying to figure out what is different

[n1gzd_plymouth]

I finally got my 230 powered 36 Plymouth running and drivable. Thanks to Moose for an aircleaner and some other small parts. I took it out for some test runs last weekend (including 55 mph on the highway). It runs reasonably well and the transmission and clutch seem fine. On the highway I did not notice any shaking or pulling to the side or directional stability. However, there is a lot of vibration (particularly in the stick shift shaft) and knocking noises, and bouncing (I know the reason for some of this). In addition, I think that I have an issue with some mismatched brake parts in as yet unidentified rear end.

What is the max rpm that would be just fine for this engine on the highway?

My oil pressure was about 55-60 when not at idle. My water temp stayed very steady at about 165-170.

Lots of things are leaking but after going to a car show and looking under all of the similar powered mopar cars I have decided that mine is not as bad as most that I saw.

Sorry not to have pictures of these [problems below yet (this weekend).

I have a long list of mechanical issues that I still need to resolve. These things are mostly the result of the project being incomplete and not stock (car has drive train parts from various other cars). I need to take a picture of some of these and post them. I have identifie the engine but not the transmission, clutch, or rear end. However, here are a few things that I am still dealing with:

1) I am still trying to identify which transmission I have and what motor mount/bellhousing mount I am supposed to have. so far I only know this. The 230 CI has been identified as being from Dodge truck. My transmission is floor shift. The actuator for the hand brake is on the right side of the transmission. The associated clutch linkages are on the left side of the transmission. My clutch return spring seems to be hooked to the wrong place (works but does not make sense because there is no hole in the frame where it is hooked). The speedo cable is not yet hooked up. (was not hooked up when I got the car which was an unfinished project). On the right side of the transmission about 3/4 of the way up the housing there is an open threaded hole that is 3/4 inch (possibly as large as an inch). What is this? Is this for the speedo cable? Is something missing (the cable would not be able to attach here without other hardware sticking out). Also, I noticed that in the manual that I have, that something fitting this description is on the left side of the transmission (mine is on the right).

What clues should I look for to identify what transmission I might have? Is it possible that this transmission was from the Dodge truck. Behind the rear of the engine, under the transmission bell housing area there are two "sandwich shaped" engine or transmission mounts vertically mounted, and slightly tilted towards the outside of the car (like 1 o'clock and 11 o'clock). I cannot find a single two piece engine mount (the one that in catalogs looks like two round mounts that mount one above the other). I also can't find any engine or bell housing mounts that look like mine in any catalog. I am wondering if I am looking at some kind of non standard installation or am I looking at something copied from the way the engine was mounted in the Dodge truck.

Does anyone have a picture of the things that I describe here or a lead on what engine mounts I am supposed to have or that I do have (source of replacement)? The rear mounts that i have (that appear to be under the bellhousing) are bolted to a frame cross member that I think is in the stock location (but I can't assume that). I will try and get pictures next weekend.

My engine does seem to rock back and forth (side to side) more than I would expect at idle. How much movement is normal with this type of ("floating power") - my front mount is a 1936 Plymouth mount that has been modified to fit the 230 CI engine (mount holes in different places). It is in good shape.

I am wondering if my engine is being correctly supported at the rear.

by the way, my clutch springs are orange (this color was not one of the colors mentioned in the manual that I looked at).

2) misc clunks and rattles. Certainly the springs squeak and the non stock exhaust rattles. I am not worrying about that for now. I am having a pretty annoying knocking in the front end that I am trying to isolate (reason for questions about engine mount). Some of the things that are obviously rattling (identified while standing under the car) will be easy to fix after I decide what the right missing parts are. One such area is the linkage that actuates the parking brake (on the right side of the transmission). There are clearly some bushings and spacers missing. Does anyone have pictures?

Also, does anyone have pictures of where my clutch return spring should be?

3) The brakes stop the car easily. However, I am having trouble with them pulsing the motion of the car as I just come to a stop (mostly noticed while applying the brakes gently as you are coming to a stop). when I was re-installing the wheels I noticed some things that must be wrong about the rear hubs and drums. the wheel fits exactly over the hub (as expected). However, the drum inner diameter where it fits over the hub is slightly larger hole than the size of the hub. Possibly this does not matter. the wheel bolt holes in the hub flange, drum and wheel do line up (of course, or I could not ge the bolts in). However, there is supposed to be a small pin sticking out of the hub that will key the wheel and drum so that they are in the right place correct? I see this in the front. Without this pin and with the fact that the inner diameter of the hole in the middle of the drum is slightly larger than than the hole in the middle of the wheel and the diameter of the hub that it fits over it is possible to get the drum slighly off center (because of this slop and the fact that the holes for the wheel bolts have some slop as well).

On the right side there is a hole in the flange where I think that a pin is supposed to go. I stuck a punch in this hole, thus forcing the drum to to be centered better and then tightened the wheel bolts. the wheel then could spin freely.

On the other side, there was again no centering pin and there was not even a hole in the flange where it should go. Here is what I think that the consequence of the pin missing is:

Initially when I just installed it I could not turn the wheel after I cranked down the wheel bolts. I loostened it and then centered spun the wheel freely. this seems to have made the drum center itself. then I tightened the wheel bolts some more and spun it again. using this technique I think that I got it in the center.

Is the drum supposed to fit exactly over the hub the way the wheel does or is it supposed to be a tiny bit larger. Is the purpose of this pin to be to ensure that the drum is centered correctly (if the drum does not fit tightly on the hub). I also found out that the pin would have made it easier to install the wheels.

Although the pin was present in the front I did notice that both the right and left front wheel bolt sets were "R" - one should have been "L" so I know that these parts are not original.

I don't think that this slow speed brake pulsing is just a matter of brake adjustment but I could be wrong. The wear pattern on the rear brake drums (metal wear inside the drums) looks normal from the little bit of driving that I did.

Sorry for not having pics yet (but I will get them this weekend).

Here is a few pic of the car at it's first cruise night event:

http://www.pangalacticconsortium.com/cars/PlymouthFirstTimeOut/

Rebecca

[Young Ed]

Here's a pic of my 46 truck bellhousing and tranny. I believe from your description that you do have a car bellhousing. The truck ones have nothing underneath and are supported on the sides with brackets bolted directly to the frame. The rear engine mounts are sandwiched in these brackets. A 36 would have had a floor shift tranny from the factory. I'm not sure about the ebrake though. As for the missing piece on the side that sounds like where your speedometer drive gear should go. They did change from side to side for various applications so I wouldn't count it out just because its on the other side.

[n1gzd_plymouth]

well, I really need to get a picture to post. My two squre sandwich shaped mounts (which I think are under the back of the bellhousing or under the front of the transmission are all that is holding up the back of the engine (as far as I can see).

Is the speedo drive gear the same for most cars? Do I just get one and screw it in and then screw in the speedo cable? Is it as easy as that or is there some kind of calibration to do. Also, is there something that I will need to do to get it to engage with the gears in the transmission when I screw it in (some trick).

Does anyone know where I can get one. I will call Roberts.

Thanks,

Rebecca

[Young Ed]

You will need the retainer for the speedo gear. I cant say if its the same. There are different teeth counts to match up to the rear end ratio. Otherwise ya you just stick in there and screw on the retainer piece. Calibration is just the teeth count. Any count will get you working but the speedo might be off.

[n1gzd_plymouth]

You will need the retainer for the speedo gear. I cant say if its the same. There are different teeth counts to match up to the rear end ratio. Otherwise ya you just stick in there and screw on the retainer piece. Calibration is just the teeth count. Any count will get you working but the speedo might be off.

Ok. then if retainer is same for all then I would probably be safe for now assuming that I have a 41 rear end (this is what I was told). so I just need to figure out how many teeth this would be. Right now I just want something in the hole and I would like to see if my speedometer works. I can adjust to the right number of teeth later. I am assuming that with that hole, I was operating the transmission with a hole open to the outside (bad, dirt can get in).

Rebecca

[Jim Yergin]

Rebecca,

Here is the chart from the factory manual for the various speedo gears application. Sorry that it is not too legible. Maybe you can print it and then enlarge it by photocopying it.

Let me check tonight and see if I have an extra speedo drive retainer.

Jim Yergin

[n1gzd_plymouth]

Rebecca,

Here is the chart from the factory manual for the various speedo gears application. Sorry that it is not too legible. Maybe you can print it and then enlarge it by photocopying it.

Let me check tonight and see if I have an extra speedo drive retainer.

Jim Yergin

Thanks for checking. I could not read it after enlarging. Does the chart include both 36 plymouth and 41 plymouth? I probably need 41 but if they are the same that would make it definite. I am guessing it is somewhere between 16 and 19.

Rebecca

[Merle Coggins]

By your description of the wheel and drum mounting I have to suspect that someone removed the rivits from the drums. I believe the drums should be rivited to the hubs. Having them loose could cause them to be off center causing an out of round issue when the shoes apply. This may cause a pulsing in the pedal too.

Merle

[greg g]

Depends what year the bell housing is but the later cars 40's have two rubber fittings that fit into the cross member then a bolt goes through the cross member, the rubber fitting and the casting on the bell. The trucks are different in that the bellhousing has the large castigs on each side which mount directly to the frame superceding the need for the cross member. Not familiat with floor shifted cars but I would think they are more like the later cars than the trucks.

I have a car cross member which was cut out of another car, it has one motor mount still in it, I will try to grab a picutre later today.

The drive line vibration might be related to the dirveshaft. Unbolt it from one end or the other and rotate it 180 degrees and reattach. That may take care of most of the drive line shake.

Glad to heat it is up ad running. Keep pluging your boutn to get all the bugs worked out.

[40phil41]

Here is a photo of my bellhousing. It is a D24 engine in my 1940 Dodge. A bit dark but you can see the bellhousing to frame rubber mounts. Hope this helps.

Phil

P.S. I didn't realize this photo was so large. I have tried to re-size it. Hope it worked.

Edited June 8, 2009 by 40phil41

[n1gzd_plymouth]

Depends what year the bell housing is but the later cars 40's have two rubber fittings that fit into the cross member then a bolt

snip....

goes through the cross member, the rubber fitting and the casting on the bell.

The drive line vibration might be related to the dirveshaft. Unbolt it from one end or the other and rotate it 180 degrees and reattach. That may take care of most of the drive line shake.

.

It is not really a shake (like I would expect from bad drive driveshaft balance or joints). It is really a vibration like the kind you would feel from bad engine mounts. Regarding rubber fittings. that sounds like what I have (and the other more common rear engine mount is missing). I really need to take some pictures. My car is not at home so I have to wait until I can get there (I had to leave in a hurry yesterday).

Thanks, again.

Rebecca

[n1gzd_plymouth]

Here is a photo of my bellhousing. It is a D24 engine in my 1940 Dodge. A bit dark but you can see the bellhousing to frame rubber mounts. Hope this helps.

Phil

I do not have those engine mounts nor is there a cross member below the place where those mounts are. I wonder if I should install one.

I really have to get a picture. stay tuned.

Rebecca

[Jim Yergin]

Rebecca,

Let's see if this is any better.

I don't think it is going to matter whether it is a 1936 or 1941 rear axle. The determining criteria will be axle ratio and tire size. It looks like the speedo drives are interchangeable regardless of year.

Jim Yergin

Speedo gear info 1.pdf

Speedo gear info 2.pdf

[greg g]

well that is pretty much the standard looks a lot like my 46 and the crossmember I have that was cut out is from a 56 and it look pretty much the same. So if you don't have any of that just what is holding up the rear of the engine?????

[n1gzd_plymouth]

Rebecca,

Let's see if this is any better.

I don't think it is going to matter whether it is a 1936 or 1941 rear axle. The determining criteria will be axle ratio and tire size. It looks like the speedo drives are interchangeable regardless of year.

Jim Yergin

Yes. that is perfect. I just need to jack up the rear of the car and determine what my gear ratio is. thanks.

Rebecca

[n1gzd_plymouth]

well that is pretty much the standard looks a lot like my 46 and the crossmember I have that was cut out is from a 56 and it look pretty much the same. So if you don't have any of that just what is holding up the rear of the engine?????

I will try and get a picture tonight. I have a cross member that I think is a little further back and has completely different looking mounts. They are shaped like a square sandwitch and are vertically mounted and clamp onto the cross member. I don't know if they were the "invention" of the person who tried rebuilding this car or something that came from a truck. Hopefully this will be more clear when I get the pics.

My brake problem is a big mystery as well.

Clearly something is wrong. If I remove my wheels the drums practically fall off (no puller needed). I am sure that this is why I feel a little bit of slow speed pulsing in the breaks. I probably need new hubs and drums to fix this.

I will probably not be able to get pictures of that until next weekend.

Rebecca

[Young Ed]

Could it be that a later model rear end was swapped in where the drums would just come off?

[n1gzd_plymouth]

Could it be that a later model rear end was swapped in where the drums would just come off?

The guy I got it from said that it was a 41 rear end. Clearly something is wrong because I can't see now the drum can be fixed in a known location because of the fact that it does not fit snugly against the center of the hub. More pictures will be needed. I can see evidence that there were rivets that were ground. Clearly the drum should not practially fall off when I remove the wheel.

I need to resolve this ASAP but I need more information to share.

Un the meantime, I have not had very much luck finding good picture of the pieces that I would expect if I had one of the two common drums (10 inch or 11 inch) and one of the common hub styles. There are plenty of pictures of drum/hub removal but very few pictures of what it looks like on the other side.

more later. thanks.

Rebecca

[Jim Yergin]

Rebecca,

Here are some pictures of the rear brake drum off my '41 P12 Plymouth.

Outside

Inside

Also, I do have an extra speedo gear retainer and an 18 tooth speedo gear as shown in the picture.

If you can use the speedo parts, just PM me an address and I will send them to you.

Jim Yergin

Edited June 9, 2009 by Jim Yergin

[greg g]

Gonna start a drum rivit argument now.

The key locks indexes and being tapered locks the hub to the axle.

The drum is rivited to the hub. (theory, this is redundant) It also causes most of the problems when servicing the rear brakes. as the drum and therefore the hub need to be removed to access the brakes.

Hypothesis, one could grind the rivets off and remove the drum from the hub, without the agony of using the puller and its associated mental and physical torment.

while the drum is off, the remaining rivet parts could be driven out from the hub so they do not inadvertantly loosen and dilodge themselves at an inoportune time.

The drum would the be slipped on after brake service and centered and retained by the wheel and lugs just like on a modern car. Then the only time you would need to mess with the axle nut and hub puller is when you needed to service the axle or its seals.

As noted Rebeccas post, those with plymouths would probably need to fashion a guid bolt or to to allow the fitment of the wheel in a centered manner, shugging up three bolts, then removing the guide bolts inserting the two other bolts and then tightening in the normal star pattern to keep the wheel drum assembly.

[n1gzd_plymouth]

Here is the front and rear view of my engine mounts (which are under the rear part of the bell housing). I will post more pics tomorrow.

Rebecca

[Niel Hoback]

Just to stir the pot, I punched the rivets out of all my drums many years ago with no ill effects at all. The lug bolts center the drum when you put it on.

Having removable drums saves a lot of time and effort when you want to get at the brakes.

Most older cars do not have riveted drums, I recall American motors cars had tapered axles and rear hubs with separate drums.

One other benefit is that instead of having four different drums that can only be used in their original position, you can move them side to side and replace them with drums from another car regardless of the side they came from.

[greg g]

Always thought you were a progressive thinker, kinda makes the puller obsolete. Unless for some reason you really gotta get th hub off but the puller would still work as it should without the drum in the way.

Now go to the junk yard and see if the top hat style brake rotor from a 4wd Jeep cherokee or wrangler, or get one from the parts store then return it whent he fittig is over, fits over the stock hub where it would work with one of charlies brackets but retain teh stock bearig with no spacers.

[Niel Hoback]

I discovered accidentally that the rear rotors from a 2001 Mitsubishi Galant fit perfectly over the front hubs and the bolt pattern is exactly the same. However, I have no inclination to pursue it.

I fear I have hijacked this thread and will say no more.

[n1gzd_plymouth]

Here is the front and rear view of my engine mounts (which are under the rear part of the bell housing). I will post more pics tomorrow.

Rebecca

so has anyone ever seen engine mounts like these before or do you think that this is a modification. The metal support part of these mounts appears to be cast (not cheap homemade solution).

Here is the casting number from my bell housing:

851252-3

This number was hard to read. It is possible that the first number was something else such as a "B". Also the "1" was a little hard to read but I am not sure what else it could have been.

On the other side of the casting I found "5-27".

My flywheel says "393077". It looks to me like my clutch was new before the car sat. the springs around the outside are orange and the ones in the middle appear to be green. Is the color an indication of the strength of the spring. In a book that I looked at colors were listed but I could not find colors like mine.

What is the oil line that appears to connect to the throw out bearing and terminates in some kind of dipstick? Is there some kind of maintenance that I am supposed to do with this?

Is it easy to change the cloth boots that protect the ball and trunion area at each end of the drive shaft? It appears that you can just remove the clamps and un hook it and then install a new one. I have seen this part in the Roberts catalog.

Thanks.

Rebecca