Overheating - Looking for suggestions

[Jim Yergin]

[quote name=Jim Yergin;...<snip> I just replaced the water pump ...<snip>

Jim ' date=' Did you replace the water pump just after or before it started running hot ? If you replaced your pump and it then started to run hot , can you put your old pump back on to see if it will run normal ?[/quote]

Jerry,

It was running hot before I replaced it. I was looking for the problem and discovered the pump was leaking so I replaced it with the hope that would solve the problem but there was no difference.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Jim Yergin

[Jim Yergin]

Jim, Two questions. While you were working on your trans did any of these symtoms reveal themselves? When you checked your timingwas the car hard to start?

When you start your car, have the radiator cap off. After a while you should see the water curculating. Rev the motor and look at all hoses. Do they move? Check your oil is it over fulled? Take a look at your heater core did you shut off the valve that supplies it water in the winter? could it be leaking? If there is no visible leak then maybe your mixture is to much water and it's evaporating. The water or fluid has to be going someplace. These problems are easy to find on our old motors however you will have to put yourself out there to find them. We have had alot of rain lately so the next dry day drive it and observe, you have done such a great job it's right under your nose. A rebuilt motor does run tight at first the stude did, what weight oil are you using have you changed it and added your ZDDP plus?

Rodney,

The car was running fine with no problems until last February when the clutch burned out. I realize now that the car overheated that same trip but I thought it was because the engine was working so hard because the clutch was slipping. I have used two different transmissions since then, the regular original three speed and the O/D. The overheating occurred with both. The oil level is OK. I agree that I just have to be systematic and locate the problem. I appreciate everyone's suggestions to help me do that.

Jim Yergin

[Jim Yergin]

How about an overnight pressure test of the cooling system. Seems to me that might reveal even a pin hole leak.

Frank,

I think that would be a good idea but I don't know how to do that. What sort of equipment would I need?

Thanks.

Jim Yergin

[Plymouthy Adams]

plugging the overflow on the radiator top tank would be the first obstacle to overcome..as for the "gentle" pressure that you would want to use as these are not designed to be a pressure system..I would want to hold the PSI to less than 7 lbs. To do this is not that hard...get a fat 20" bicycle tube... cut the tube and slip over the inlet of the radiator and the outlet on the head (substitute for the upper hose)..install a pressure cap...fill the radiator and ensure the tube is filled with water...pressurize the system with air..the expansion of the bike tube will give you pressure but not to any great amount to blow a seam..I use this method repairing/testing radiators out of the car...even at the low pressue..damp spots will form even if you don't show a steady stream...

[Jim Yergin]

Thanks Tim. Sounds do-able.

Jim Yergin

[Jim Yergin]

Even though I didn't see any evidence of white smoke out the exhaust, I decided to pull the cylinder head and check the headgasket since that is so easy to do. Here is what I found. The gasket is in one piece but there appears to be a burn mark (not grease) between cylinder numbers 4 and 5. Do you think that indicates a slight leak that could be the cause of my overheating but which would still allow the car to run fine?

Jim Yergin

[greg g]

Looks like it was pumping compression into the water jacket. Probably made the water pump cavetate (trying to pump air or bubbles instead of fluid). You wouldn't think that something that small woud cause a problem. Did you have your head checked for straight and true???

even if you did, for the 40 or 50 bucks it cost have 30 or 40 shaved off that thing while its off.

Don't forget to retorquw after a temp cycle upon reinstalling.

Edited June 9, 2009 by greg g

[Jim Yergin]

Greg,

Thanks for the reply. I did have the head shaved and the block checked for flatness before I assembled the engine. It would be nice to find out that this is the problem and that a new headgasket will solve it.

Jim Yergin

[Mr. Belvedere]

With the 4,000 headbolts these engines have and relatively low compression and stout copper gasket its hard to imagine these engines having much problem with headgaskets especially with newer parts and trued up surfaces.

[n1gzd_plymouth]

I am having the same type of overheating problems with my straight 8 powered 50 Buick so I know what you are going through. good luck.

Rebecca

[RobertKB]

Even though I didn't see any evidence of white smoke out the exhaust, I decided to pull the cylinder head and check the headgasket since that is so easy to do. Here is what I found. The gasket is in one piece but there appears to be a burn mark (not grease) between cylinder numbers 4 and 5. Do you think that indicates a slight leak that could be the cause of my overheating but which would still allow the car to run fine?

Jim Yergin

Something definitely wrong with the gasket. Should not look like that and my guess is that is your problem. I could be wrong though as it has been known to happen in the past. I am sure others will chime in re the gasket.

[Don Coatney]

Here is what I found. The gasket is in one piece but there appears to be a burn mark

Jim Yergin

Jim;

If this is a one piece gasket will you anneal it and re-use it? Where did you find the one piece gasket? Is it the same thickness as the sandwiched gasket? Why did you elect to use a 1 piece gasket? I have given thought to finding and using a 1 piece gasket as it should be the last gasket you have to purchase. Please post the details.

[Jerry Roberts]

Jim;

If this is a one piece gasket will you anneal it and re-use it? Where did you find the one piece gasket? Is it the same thickness as the sandwiched gasket? Why did you elect to use a 1 piece gasket? I have given thought to finding and using a 1 piece gasket as it should be the last gasket you have to purchase. Please post the details.

I think that what Jim meant was that his gasket does not have a break between the cylinders , rather than being made from a single sheet of copper .

[Jim Yergin]

Jim;

If this is a one piece gasket will you anneal it and re-use it? Where did you find the one piece gasket? Is it the same thickness as the sandwiched gasket? Why did you elect to use a 1 piece gasket? I have given thought to finding and using a 1 piece gasket as it should be the last gasket you have to purchase. Please post the details.

Don,

Jerry is correct on what I was trying to describe.

My plan is to replace the headgasket. I just picked one up that I had on order at the local AutoZone. The one in the picture came in a set of engine rebuild gaskets that I purchased from an eBay merchant when I rebuilt the engine. I just used what was in the set without specifying the type.

Jim Yergin

[Rodney Bullock]

Hi Jim, I had a very small leak on the outside edge of my 1940 plymouth(1952 217) I cleaned the area then retorqued the head and never had any problem out of the head. I did it because my car was running a little hot. After I did that the temp became very normal. I am so glad you found the problem, You knw that Sully is three weeks away:D we should have big fun!

[Jim Yergin]

Rodney,

I have registered the car for Sully and am looking forward to getting there this year. Will you be bringing the Hawk?

Jim Yergin

[Rodney Bullock]

Hi Jim, yes I have pre registered as well and will be bringing the "Hawk" The Studebaker drivirs club will like it, I hope:cool:

[n1gzd_plymouth]

Hi Jim, I had a very small leak on the outside edge of my 1940 plymouth(1952 217) I cleaned the area then retorqued the head and never had any problem out of the head. I did it because my car was running a little hot. After I did that the temp became very normal. I am so glad you found the problem, You knw that Sully is three weeks away:D we should have big fun!

I am having a similar pretty bad overheating problem with my straight 8 buick. I did a combustion gas leak test and found no evidence of combustion gases in the radiator. Unless I did the test incorrectly, I am assuming that I could not have a head gasket problem. I hope that this is the correct assessment because I am now going to punch out the freeze plugs and look for a blockage.

So far it looks like my plymouth runs cool but I have not yet driven it on a hot day.

Rebecca

[Don Coatney]

Unless I did the test incorrectly

Rebecca

[n1gzd_plymouth]

that is good info but the test that I was referring to was the chemical test where you suck air at the top of the radiator (while the engine is running) through some purple chemical fluid. If there is the slightest evidence of combustion gas getting into the radiator the fluid turns yellow. I have been told that this is a very conclusive test (slightest leak will cause a color change) but this is the first time that I ever tried it.

Has anyone else done this? I got the kit from NAPA. Commercial auto repair places use it to confirm head problems.

Rebecca

[Don Coatney]

I have never heard of such a test. Is there a NAPA part number for this test kit so I can look it up?

[Merle Coggins]

I have one of those test kits too. I've used it a couple of times, but have yet to confirm a combustion leak with it. Every time I've used it there is another problem that causes the poorly running engine.

It doesn't take much CO2 to change the color of the fluid. If you just exhale near the tip while drawing air into it, the fluid will turn yellow.

Merle

[Merle Coggins]

I got mine from Matco, but Napa lists one in their tools catalog;

"Universal Combustion Leak Test Kit"

Locate combustion leaks without guesswork.

Test in seconds for cracked blocks, leaky gaskets, cracked or warped heads.

Kit contains test tool and 16-ounce bottle of combustion leak test fluid.

BK700-1006

BK700-1361 Large Engine Adapter

BK700-1366 Leak Test Fluid

BK700-9572 Aspirator bulb w/Valve

Merle

Edited July 14, 2009 by Merle Coggins

[Normspeed]

Jim, my 218 has a composite gasket of some sort, not the copper sheet. When I first got the motor installed, the machine shop had to go back in and change one faulty valve guide. When they returned the car I could see by the paint on the edge of the gasket that they had re-used it! I was furious and had words with the machine shop owner over it. He assured me that the composite type could be re-used with no problems. I was doubtful but that one is still in the motor, with thousands of miles on it including a 6,000 mile trip pulling the teardrop. I don't know what brand they used but it sure held up OK.

[Don Coatney]

I got mine from Matco, but Napa lists one in their tools catalog;

"Universal Combustion Leak Test Kit"

Locate combustion leaks without guesswork.

Test in seconds for cracked blocks, leaky gaskets, cracked or warped heads.

Kit contains test tool and 16-ounce bottle of combustion leak test fluid.

BK700-1006

BK700-1361 Large Engine Adapter

BK700-1366 Leak Test Fluid

BK700-9572 Aspirator bulb w/Valve

Merle

Thanks Merle;

I will check it out.