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[Norm's Coupe]

David,

Just like in private industry, there really isn't a perfect, sure and accurate way to rate teachers job performance. But...there can be ground basics to do it. To start with a wood shop teacher should only be judged on how his students learn how to work with wood, not judged on how well some kid does in English. That's the English teachers job to teach English, not the shop teacher. Even though you need math to build something, it's still not the shop teachers job to teach math either. That's the math teachers job.

There's also other ways to help kids "want to learn". A teacher that is a dead pan teacher that just does it by the letter of the book, is a very dull teacher in my book. And, as such, his students are going to get bored real fast, then not learn because they are bored to death. A good teacher will make the kids "want to learn" by making the subject/class interesting and fun. What's interesting and fun? Well..........that would depend on the teacher, kids in the classroom and the subject being taught. That can be determined on the first day or two (maybe first week) of the class. When I was in school we had all types of teachers. The ones who would put you to sleep instantly with a monotone voice and no personality at all. Second, the type that is happy go lucky, gets excited about the subject so the kids see that excitement and hear it in his/her voice, and makes it fun to learn the subject. If you get the kids excited about the subject, they will learn faster and a lot easier. So.........this is another way to judge a teachers job performance. So, there are ways to do it.

I understand the problems of getting better teachers to go into the inner city. You have to be a policeman in some of those schools. But........that may also be part of a solution. I have several friends and neighbors that are on the police force here. From what I understand, the rookies always get the roughest assignment districts to start out, regardless of how well they did in the academy. They each get their turn in the rough areas of the city at some point. So.........maybe that's what needs to be done with teachers. You want a position with this school district, you must also serve some time in the inner city schools. Who knows, some new teachers may even see that as a greater challenge (and is in most cases) and want to stay there because they can see they may make a difference. Even if that difference is only with one kid per year.

In short, I guess you could say a teacher should be like a salesperson. The teacher has to get excited, stay excited, and always on the up side (every day, even though really down and out personally that day) to sell his/her subject. If he/she does that, most kids will buy it and also get them excited about learning. Do that and the test scores will automatically go up. Just like the salesperson gets the customer excited about his/her product, so the customer buys it.

Maybe they should start having teachers take a sales course or two in college. After all, they are selling education.

[Captain Neon]

Norm, don't even get me started on requiring recent graduates to teach in the inner cities. An unhappy fiance I would have been were I told that a) I had to quit my job and move with my new wife to the big city, or that my wife and I could only see ea. other on the weekends and i.e. my wife was working for free due to the expenses of having two households.

I don't know how many times I had to explain to well-meaning, but ignorant friends and family members that thought I should quit my decent factory job in rural Minnesota and move to inner-city Kansas City. They read stories in their local newspapers of teaching students getting hired to teach full-time and student loan forgiveness, etc. etc. etc. What they failed to notice was that these young people weren't El. Ed., but rather secondary math and science graduates that even desirable school districts couldn't find teachers. The fantastic job for me at the local ammunition plant wasn't so fantastic either as it paid less than I was already making and the cost of living in KC was much more than what I was already making. In essence, my wife and I would have been taking a pay cut to risk our lives and property in the inner city of KC.

A requirement that teachers must work a certain number of years in the inner city is only going to exasperate the problems some disciplines (ex. secondary math and science, and special ed.) have in getting teachers. The current methods of bribing teachers to teach in New York City and other rough inner city schools isn't working surely using a fascist technique of requiring a certain number of years there isn't going to solve the problem either. We will just have more folks with teaching degrees at Wal*Mart.

When we lived in NW Arkansas, one was better compensated as a Wal*Mart floor associate than were substitute teachers. Perhaps that explains why even the best schools in Arkansas are two years behind special ed. kids in inner-city Buffalo NY. Now if one is the local football coach, well, let's just say there was no problem getting qualified applicants for that job.

[Don Jordan]

I try to stay out of these threads - most people already have their minds made up but I feel the need to jump in on the merit pay.

I teach in Los Angeles County Court Schools. All my students are incarcerated. Many did not go to school in the outs. In our camp of about 100 kids the average reading level is 5th grade. When the kids take the standardized test they are usually finished bubbling in the answer sheet before I finish reading the instructions. THEY DON'T CARE! I spend 40% of my class time with behavior problems. I have kids say to my face, "F**k you you punk ass bit*h." I send them out of the room but nothing happens, no consequences. Probation is afraid of the kids because of DOJ (Department of Justice) who makes arbitrary rules without even being in the class. There are so many "child advocates" and they are doing the kids no favors.

Most of you remember "old school" where we got our hands slapped with rulers. Where we respected other people's property and feelings. These guys don't.

I'm annoyed that I'm going to be judged the same as a teacher at Beverly Hills High.

I've said too much - I think I'm going to Disneyland.

[martybose]

Don,

Those are some scary circumstances that you're teaching in. Best wishes, and good luck!

Marty

[David Maxwell]

God bless you Don. The general public just doesn't get it!!!! Folks, you have to be in it to get it. All the political stuff is bull$#!%. GW didn't have a clue, Barack doesn't have a clue, Arnold the Governator sure as hell doesn't have a clue and no one without the balls to spend five or more years in the frying pan will ever have a clue. I'm sorry...., I've had it! Spend the 6 or more years in college we did, then try it for a few years at the pay level we receive, watch everyone point the finger at you constantly and see how your opinion changes. Otherwise, just double our pay or ...... (I won't say it)

Can you tell my wife and just went out to celebrate her birthday and I had a few drinks? Sorry if I've offended anyone. Guess 15 years of being offended eventually catches up with you. BTW, my Economics students competed today and my top student took FIRST PLACE in Southern CA!!!!! 1500+ at competition.

Good night!

I try to stay out of these threads - most people already have their minds made up but I feel the need to jump in on the merit pay.

I teach in Los Angeles County Court Schools. All my students are incarcerated. Many did not go to school in the outs. In our camp of about 100 kids the average reading level is 5th grade. When the kids take the standardized test they are usually finished bubbling in the answer sheet before I finish reading the instructions. THEY DON'T CARE! I spend 40% of my class time with behavior problems. I have kids say to my face, "F**k you you punk ass bit*h." I send them out of the room but nothing happens, no consequences. Probation is afraid of the kids because of DOJ (Department of Justice) who makes arbitrary rules without even being in the class. There are so many "child advocates" and they are doing the kids no favors.

Most of you remember "old school" where we got our hands slapped with rulers. Where we respected other people's property and feelings. These guys don't.

I'm annoyed that I'm going to be judged the same as a teacher at Beverly Hills High.

I've said too much - I think I'm going to Disneyland.

[Don Jordan]

I did it. I went to Disneyland. At my age with my knees I'm only good for about 3 hours of walking. But I did make some observations:

There was some sort of cheer leading competition. I have never seen so many little girls in costume all in one place. Every time you think there is too much hate in the world just look at these pure little smiling faces. Some times I have a rather jaundiced view of kids. Today I saw a lot of laughing, parents and kids bonding, being together. You know some times (I know this is off the charts) some times my faith is renewed in man kind. Disneyland is a little too "Mary Poppins" but it will do until Monday when reality sets in.

I really enjoy this forum. It lifts my spirits. Not only venting but reading other people's vents and I am able to have such empathy.

[eric wissing]

Dave, Don and any of the other teachers here, Thanks. After doing my student teaching, I said no thanks!!. Not for me. My hat is off to anyone who can do it. Kids are just like they always were, different than the generation before. The school systems are different when just a few miles apart. The schools need a lot of money but it alone won't help. No easy answers. It gets really hard when you live in an area with an aging population who figure their children are grown and gone. Anywho, thanks to those who teach coach and parent. Eric