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timkingsbury

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  1. Like
    timkingsbury got a reaction from 40Club for a blog entry, The all Mighty Cam - Flathead Style   
    As suggested by Captain Fred in his blog entry on his 1940 Plymouth build, he wanted something done on cams.
     
    Well, that can be quite a topic, and while you can find all kinds of article on the "inter-web" on how cams work in an engine, my
    goal is to put a Flathead Mopar slant on the topic.
     
    Of course as my Grandfather used to say, an engine is nothing more and a large vacuum pump. Your cam turns lifting up intake
    valves, as pistons are being turned by a crank and that creates a vacuum. The vacuum sucks in whatever is near by into the engine.
    The cam turns a little further, closing the intake valve, we "light a candle" to whatever is in then in the cylinder and after what we hope is a controlled explosion, the cam turns a little further lifting exhaust valves and those pistons coming up push out whatever is left out of the engine..
     
    In the V8 world a great deal of people used to think that making power, aside from the "no replacement for displacement" concept was putting in a wild cam. As time went by in the racing world, while the cam was important, we know it is the heads that are a much bigger factor to the V8 world. Sure superchargers or turbo chargers, trying to jam more stuff into the cylinder and the type of fuel you use for your controlled explosion also became a big factor, but in the world of cam vs heads it is the heads that lead that world.
     
    In the flathead Mopar world, fuel isn't entering via the heads, and so it is definitely a cam that leads this world over the heads.
     
    Next lets talk about stock lift and duration and even there, Chrysler Corporation made a huge number of cam profiles so the second I toss this out here, its easy for someone to say - "my stock cam is different" and yes I know that.
     
    But in high level terms, a cam has two major factors and a few lesser factors. Lift and most of the p15-d24s were a 375 lift
    and then duration. Lift is how high the cam lifts the valve from its closed position, and duration is the degrees of the 360 degree circle that it keeps those valves open. In other terms how high we lift the valves and for how long we keep them open, whether intake or exhaust valves.
     
    Again high level - you are limited by how high you can lift the valves in a flathead by the head. Lift the valve too high and it hits the head. On the duration side, there becomes a point where you have kept the valves open too long and it starts to effect the actual vacuum level in your engine. Remember again, a big vacuum pump. as we open and keep open valves we loose the seal on the vacuum. Of course we do that because we want to get and fuel and air mixture into the engine.
     
    The change in duration also does things to the torque curve on your engine, but that is a whole different level of the discussion and I am trying to keep this more on the basic side.
     
    Again in general if we keep the intake valves open longer and lift the intake valves higher, we get the opportunity to get more fuel/air into the engine. More fuel and air, and yes, clearly effected by the compression ratio, the more "bang" when we ignite the mixture with the spark plug firing.
     
    Now, in the cause and effect department, generally as we raise up the valves higher (aka the lift) and hold those valves open longer (increased duration) we tend to change the rpm idle and things become what most of us call "lumpy". In the good old mopar v8 days of the 1970s I am sure lots remember pulling up to the lights with a guy running a "cammed up" motor and it was idling rough, shaking, coughing an weezing and yes that was also how the timing was set, but it was the duration of the cam that was causing that. When the light turned green and they hammered it, assuming the timing was set correctly, the goal was for that high lift cam to allow for a lot more fuel to get into the engine dramatically raising the RPM and turning the lumpy idling engine into a smooth running race engine.
     
    Yes I am isolating and slanting this entire discussion towards cams, when timing can also be a huge factor. No better example being when Big Daddy Don Garlitz was forced to use a 426 hemi after they actually ran out of 392 hemis. He couldn't get the 426 to run as well, and out of frustration he advanced the timing way way beyond what anyone would have thought would work. In fact Don often tells the story that he intended to blow the "blanking" thing up. But as the engine rev'd up that advanced timing suddenly brought out the inner Monster of the 426 Hemi and all of a sudden the 392 Hemi was obsolete in Don's mind!
     
    Back to our cams and remembering that the generation of car cams we are talking about were 375 lift. There are two school of thoughts on creating high performance cams. 1st is to raise the lift gradually and some pretty famous high performance cams raise the lift to 380 an and then increase the duration to 242 degrees. The 2nd is to raise the lift up as extreme as we can and also increase the duration. in the 1950s a pretty famous performance cam used a 400 lift. and 250 degrees of duration.
     
    The other factor without diving into the details to much, is what I call the split. A great deal of cams have the intakes open and the exhaust close at exact same time, but some use a split. So for example an Esky 3/4 miles cam the intake opens intake valves at 20 degrees and closes them at 50 degrees and the exhaust opens at 57 degrees and closes at 13 degrees.
     
    The Schroller full race cam - again a stock car racing - Higher lift and increased duration the Intake - has the intake valves open at 18 degrees and closes at 54 degree. The exhaust opens at 54 degrees and closes at 18 degrees.
     
    If you are using a turbo or a blower, you often want a period of time (number of degrees) in which the intake is close and the exhaust hasn't yet opened, or visaversa.
     
    The age old question is of course - so how much lift can I have before the engine sounds like it is misfiring. Almost always visions
    of those 1970 v8 engines coughing and wheezing are the reason for thing that. In reality the flathead just doesn't really act like a great deal of those badly timed, over cammed engines.. lol The reality is in the flathead world it is more a case of the rpm rises at idle than it is about it sounding like the 1970;s v8.
     
    Of course most want a cam that sounds like it is rock stock, idles like the engine isn't running, but then they want a Top Fuel Monster to come alive when they hit the throttle. That becomes a delicate balance and is always a compromise.
     
    So lets talk extreme. Maybe there is a wilder cam out there, but if there is we have never seen it. Ill keep the origins of this cam a little bit of a mystery, but the cam we use in the Velociraptor is the most extreme cam we know of. I chuckle these days as this phrase that seems to be in vogue again, but decades ago my Grandfather used to refer to a car that had this cam as "The Hot Mess Express".
     
    Today we call if the AoK Velociraptor Grind . It is tough to get it to idle below 2000 rpm and we have with a ton of work have
    actually gotten our dragster to idle around 1800 rpm. It will wind up to North of 7200 rpm. You can run an engine on alcohol and will need 3 carbs and need to shift to 6 exhaust pipes for at least 42", to get it to run properly. Its lift is are you ready, 446 and its duration is 280 degrees. At this point we definitely have issues with vacuum and it would be extremely rough at idle, thus increasing the RPM just
    to get it to idle. For those that figure that isn't possible, by reply is gather up and bring all the cash you can find, because I am happy to say - "How much would you like to bet!".
     
    Here us a link to 3 videos of the Worlds Fastest Dinasour
     
     
     
    Now from the extreme, to lets say a mid-50s truck cam which topped out around 3600 rpm, becomes the topic where many recipe's for
    performance have been made. Some by Chrysler Corporation for everything from cars, to boats, to combines and even Massey Harris 101 Super tractors powered by Chrysler Flatheads. The later were built for high torque and low rpm, which is great for plowing a field, but achieving a high way speed, not so much!
     
    Today I think we have a catalogue of around 25 cam profiles. Of those we have cam patterns that we use , made for about 6 or 7 cams and of those, the number drops down to 3 or 4 for most engine builds. I think right now among the Kingsbury motorized items we have 14 different cams in use. In the Asche fleet of motorized items I am going to say they have 7 different cam profiles. The major difference, lol, yes I have more junk... I have a marine version, several truck versions, a combine, a water pump, a welder, a compressor which actually uses 4 cylinders to run the engine and 2 cylinders to make air, and an engine that used to be in a certain motorcycle.. lol.. Oh and I have an actual cam from a tank engine, but it isn't in an engine. I could make a pattern if someone ever needed one !
     

    For Fred's engine, we used what many call an Esky 3/4 race cam. The 3/4 stands for stock car racing on a 3/4 mile long track.
     
    This is what I today call, a fairly mild cam and we likely sell the most of these. I suspect part of that reason is as I talked about earlier, that people think back to those lumpy, poorly idling v8 engines with wild cams.. The .380 lift cam is going to give Fred 4500 rpm quickly. Its been around a long time and has a quicker rev over stock and was used historically for stock car racing. As you can likely figure out by reading this thread so far, we likely sell the most of these because most guys think they want power..... but..... they want to start it and not hear the engine running or running like a sewing machine. Tons of guys call this cam a race cam.. For me, its far from that. The tech side = 242 degrees of duration and .380 lift
     
    Finally I will end the cam conversation for now, with the cam I am using in my 1949 Plymouth. It is what I call a little lumpy but still very much streetable and no, it is nothing like a 1970s over cammed v8 with bad or good timing..
     
    lol but it is definitely aggressive, with a .435 lift and 258 degrees of duration. This cam was developed from tweeking a full race cam through the 1950s and 1960s and was what Harry Hein #90 (NASCAR hall of fame) used at the end of his career. Harry who is still alive would be the uncle of one George Asche Jr. The intake valves open at 20 degrees and close at 58 degrees, while the exhaust opens at 58 degrees and close at 20 degrees.
     
    Here it is in my 1949, when it was started for the very first time, so its not tuned and its running 47" straight pipes out of the headers. It is a bored our 265 ci  25 1/2" Canadian big block flathead 
     
     
    And here is the same cam in a 230 ci USA 23 1/2" small block 
     
     
    I hope that helps a little Fred, without confusing things too much!
     
    Now what is in that Engine of yours, I can not confirm or deny what was originally put in the engine is what is in it now.. Who knows what happens in the middle of the night in George's shop... Only the shadow, or in this case the 1929 Desoto knows for sure.. lol
  2. Like
    timkingsbury got a reaction from Uncle-Pekka for a blog entry, The Grand Master Turns 85 today !   
    February 6 1932   my good friend and second Dad, the Grand Master of Flathead Mopars -  George Asche was born.     Yesterday was his surprise Birthday Party and today
    is George's 85th Birthday!     The picture below  is rumored to be when George Graduated High School, but I think really that should be a diploma of future Flathead Chrysler, Desoto, Plymouth, Dodge/Fargo's mastery !    In the background is his Dad's Dodge truck which George still owns today!
     
    Happy Birthday George!
     
    Oh and if your wondering what George was up to for Birthday. Well  -  Lunch with his Boys at the shop (George III,  Rob and Tim), then building some carbs up, then over to the machine shop for some consulting as the AoK dual carb intakes were rolling through 7 different station.   The picture of  George with the prototype and the very first one to be completed which of course is his birthday present.. lol   A few pictures of the Dual  Carb (23 1/2" USA small block) and Triple Carb (25 1/2" Canadian  Big Block) intakes going through  the steps,  and being test fitted on blocks setup with exhausts so that every intake has been checked for a perfect fit.
     
    Then it was off for Supper in Knox (Horse Thief Capital of the World) and  back to George's shop and setting up tomorrows trip, which is believe it or not, were heading down to pick up George's Uncle Harry Hiens -  #90 who is in the Nascar  Hall of Fame. Harry lives in Mars PA.  Were bringing him up to check out the AoK intakes and take George's newest 1929 Desoto  for a ride!
     














  3. Like
    timkingsbury got a reaction from 51custom for a blog entry, Single Carb Intake, Dual Carb Intake, Triple Carb Intake, why not more ?   
    ·        
    ·       For Decades I have listened to people talk about Flathead Mopar 6 Cylinder Engines in terms of intakes, what is the best carb configuration for their particular situation.   
     
    Discussions on putting two carbs and those who claim to be sure that is too much carburation or that it will use to much fuel. Then every once in a while the discussion of 3 carbs comes up, and that almost always sparks the debate on how it would take a race motor to need it, or how the engine will bog, or run poorly.   In the last 20 years with a good friend of the AoK boys coming across a huge stash of 2 barrel carter weber carbs which were designed for slant six engines, the discussion on utilizing a 2 barrel instead of two singles comes up.
     
    I just smile, but then I know that when the stash of 2 barrel carter webers were found, its finder  put them on his website as a carb for a flathead mopar.  Its amazing how a market can be created and how quickly – “this is the way to go” spreads like rapid fire, without as much as any background check into something.
     
    But 1st, let me go back to the 1st time I heard the discussion on multiple carbs vs a single multi-barrel carb, or  put another way, comparing that “old technology carter ball and ball vs a modern 4 barrel carb”..
     
    It was about 45 Years ago, when I 1st  heard someone in a conversation with my Grandfather and my Dad, suggesting they knew a lot about Flathead Mopars and were  sporting a 4 barrel carb on a homemade intake.
    This gentleman had played with flathead Ford v8s and had came across a Dodge 2 door sedan from the mid-50s.  He was suggesting he had built the ultimate flathead Chrysler Engine and he was one of those guys that whatever he had at the moment was just the best and the only way to go. 
    Well after my Dad explained he had far from the ultimate flathead Chrysler, and that his wife’s daily driver (my Mom) was good enough to kick his ass, Dad pulled out my Mom's pickup.  It was sporting a bored out 265, with a cam, a factory dual intake and exhaust with a pair of carter ball and balls, and an a833 4 speed tranny.  After a little bit of fun that really wasn't much of a contest, licking his wounds sort of speak, Mr "Ultimate Flathead Chrysler" started down the road of excuses when Grandfather shook his head and cut him off at the pass.
     
     Grandfather like my Dad were automotive Engineers, and Grandfather literally knew more about Chrysler Flatheads than any person alive. Given he saw the very 1st flathead roll of the line in Windsor, Ontario Canada in 1935 and saw the last block cast in 1959, he had some pretty good credentials to give a lecture.
    What is explained in a few minutes was not only how the flathead engine worked, but why the engine this gentleman had came with only 1 carb failed to perform.
    Most think that 1 carb was put on the engine and that it has sufficient carburation for the engine, and if it needed more, Chrysler Engineers would have put more on.
     
    On a basic level that is true, but what engineering was building was an engine to a specific HP, torque  and fuel consumption target and not to get the most out of the engine, make it as efficient as possible or even have it run to anything close to 100% optimum performance. 
    By Optimum  performance I am not talking maximum  hp or maximum rpm or optimum fuel mileage on a vehicle.
     
    Grandfather then explained that in fact when Chrysler was faced with the need to meet a 5 ton truck specification for dump/plow trucks asked for by Canadian Municipalities during the winter of 1950, that the requirement  had  filtered to engineering in late 1950. They  developed the 265 ci motor which was 3 7/16" bore and 4 3/4" stroke and have dual carbs and dual exhaust on them, which was what was in Mom’s pickup.
     Few realize that that engine actually had more hp than any other engine on the market.  I will attach the picture of the poster that was on Grandfathers office at the time.  I gave it to George Asche Jr years ago.   In any case you can see the hot v8 mopar had in 1952 was 133 hp and the flathead 6 had more hp. As an aside Grandfather with the cam grind out of the 1952 Chrysler that engine exceeded 150 hp at the time, but given the time, energy and money that have been invested in the new Hemi v8 that was never going to see the light of day on any marketing information.
    That engine and the fact it had a factory intake, immediately became a stock car favorite in the 1952 season, when Mopar dominated stock car racing everywhere it landed.
    In any case Chrysler didn't just put on a second carb on it because they needed more carburation.  By then Chrysler already had Carter building Ball and Ball carbs from 85cfm -  425 cfm each and we now know they had a 625 cfm carter ball and ball single barrel carb if they needed it.
    The reason for two was the basic issue, some would call flaw, but Grandfather  would call basic restriction to taking the engine to the next level.  I say that folding back to the earlier point that Chrysler was building engine to a spec of "x" hp, "y" torque and "z" fuel consumption.
     
    The flathead 6 build by Chrysler has 3 Siamese intake ports,  each of which feed two cylinders.  Setting aside the exhaust for a second, and keeping in mind that an engine is really just a giant vacuum pump, putting 1 carb in the middle of the block, basically over the middle intake port feeding cylinders 3 and 4, means that if all cylinders are the same in compression ratio and ability to create vacuum and suck in a fuel mixture coming from the carb, then cylinder 3 and 4 are going to get more fuel than the intake ports feeding cylinders 1 and 2   or 5 and 6.   Yes Chrysler made intake modifications to help that, but they again were not trying to make the perfect engine, just have it meet specs required.
    As  a little aside if your look at intakes from the 1930s through to the 50s you will notice Chrysler Engineers raised the level of the carb. With the Dual Carb truck intake it also was raised further with governors placed under the carbs.   The height of the carb mounting above the intake posts can easily be seen to rise from the 1930s to the 1950s. 
    Its also why if your look at some of the aftermarket dual intakes made in the 30s and compare them to say the 3rd generation Edmunds in the 50s you will notice a huge difference in height. The raising of the carbs and providing a smoother run from carb to the intake ports saw huge benefits in performance. Of course maybe buried in the story is the fact that early intake was designed for a marine application where quick rev was far more the desired trait than was torque.   When the intake was moved to an automotive application you would find a quick rev with the clutch engaged, but disengaged there is a significant loss in torque and it will actually burn more fuel than a single carb.
     
    But back to my story, if we now add the exhaust component into your stock Mopar flathead (or L-head)  which depending on what year engine and what vehicle,  has the single exhaust exiting at one of a few  different locations. For this discussion lets  say it exits at the back as does the post ww2 cars.     What you find is as the cylinders push out exhaust there is almost no restriction or back pressure at cylinders 5 and 6,  but there is a great deal of back pressure at cylinders 1 and 2.   
     
    So here we have the most back pressure making it tough to push away the exhaust and actually the front intake port receiving the least amount of fuel. 
    While the engine meets specs with no problem, its clear that if you can balance the exhaust, by having 3 exhaust cylinders exit through 1 exhaust pipe and the other three through a 2nd pipe, you can better balance the exhaust back pressure.  We sort of glossed over the fact that while there are only 3 intake ports, each cylinder does have its own exhaust port.   Something that changed with the introduction of the slant 6, which had  6 equal intake runners each feeding a cylinder.
     
    Back to the flathead,  if we can better distribute fuel to balance the opportunity for each of the 3 Siamese ports to get fuel, then the engine will run more efficiently.   
    So if you were to take a big block 25 1/2" engine, and anyone of them, not just the 265 and put the factory dual carb and dual exhaust setup on it and then put on the appropriate carter ball and ball carb on it, it will gain hp, torque and improved fuel mileage.  The reason is it runs more efficient.  The same takes place with the 23 1/2" USA small block which has the same intake and exhaust configuration, although slightly smaller ports.
     
    If you take it one step further,  putting 1 carb on top of each intake port,  you can provide the optimum amount of fuel efficiency for the engine.
    Back to our 4 barrel friend,  putting on a large carb  just  provides a further opportunity to over fuel the center siamese intake port.  When he hammered the throttle it was actually not able to burn all of the fuel in the middle two cylinders and was “bogging” ,until it could gain enough RPM to use some of the fuel.   
    When he was running against Mom’s pickup which had more balanced back pressure, and a better distribution of fuel he had no chance even if the engines were internally the same. Of course they weren't but that is another story. 
    Years later when we created the AoK triple intake, we placed the first intake on  an almost rock stock 201 ci motor.  It had been rebuilt stock, although required to be bored out 10 thou to clean up cylinders. Beyond that it was a stock cam, intakes etc.  With 3 of the smallest CFM carter ball and ball carbs on board and headers made from a stock exhaust systems, the car ran smoother, had better acceleration and  got 6 miles per gallon better highway mileage over the single carb and single exhaust.    In the end, it is just a myth that you need some bored out, cammed up engine for 2 carbs and a full race motor for 3 carbs.
    The reason why Chrysler didn't run 3 carbs was simple. 1) The cost of 3 carbs was no inconsequential  2) They could meet the HP, Torque and Fuel useage targets with 1 carb.  The exception was when there was a time window where the dual carb, dual exhaust 265 ci motor was released, but with overhead valve v8s and Hemi's coming shortly after the multiple carb flathead life-cycle was short lived.
     
    There is a bit more it than that. I have glossed over a bunch of the engineering parts of why you don't just put a carb directly to each intake port with no equalization tube, but I am sure you get the drift.
    Unlike a v8 where you might try and make carbs progressive because your feeding a intake plenum that equally or close to equally feeding all 8 cylinders, the flathead engine has 3 intake ports each feeding 2 cylinders so progressive carbs just are not effective.  On the flathead Mopar, with either 2 or 3 carbs you want them to produce the exact same fuel to feed each of the Siamese ports exactly the same. Its not progressive in terms of additional barrels or carbs, its progressive by pushing on the gas peddle.
     
     The key is making sure both or all three carbs are identical and that you have linkage that operates all of them exactly the same. 
     
    Its a common misconception that they must be hard to keep synced. We have engines with tens of thousands of miles on them with multiple carbs and are never adjusted.  George Asche's 1929 Desoto that he has owned since 1950 likely has an unbelievable amount of miles on it and likely the  carbs were only touched when George has redone the engine.  I own vehicles with 100,000 + miles on them and the linkage for the dual carbs has never touched. That has a lot to do with just how good Carter Ball and Ball carbs are.. 
    We also get asked  quite often about modifying the block to provide 6 intake ports, or using webers or other carbs, or running fuel injection.   Dad and Grandfather with too much time on their hands, as my Mother would say,  did modify a couple of engines to provide 6 intake ports. There were several  intakes made including one with an 18" runner set on it, one with 6 side draft webers and one with modified hilborn fuel injection.
    At the end of the day, with various levels of success, nothing seems to outperform an Edmunds triple carb intake with riser blocks and 3 matched 1952-56 Truck carbs on them and maybe with some jetting changes.   Of course, since then we have developed a couple of new cam profiles and of course the AoK  triple which utilizes better and modern casting technology, as well as better flow bench testing and computer modelling that neither Chrysler or Eddy Edmunds had.    Have we thought about digging out the 6 intake port block that is still in Dad's shop, well yah we have, but that is another project and a blog entry for another time.
     
     


  4. Like
    timkingsbury got a reaction from 51custom for a blog entry, Single Carb Intake, Dual Carb Intake, Triple Carb Intake, why not more ?   
    ·        
    ·       For Decades I have listened to people talk about Flathead Mopar 6 Cylinder Engines in terms of intakes, what is the best carb configuration for their particular situation.   
     
    Discussions on putting two carbs and those who claim to be sure that is too much carburation or that it will use to much fuel. Then every once in a while the discussion of 3 carbs comes up, and that almost always sparks the debate on how it would take a race motor to need it, or how the engine will bog, or run poorly.   In the last 20 years with a good friend of the AoK boys coming across a huge stash of 2 barrel carter weber carbs which were designed for slant six engines, the discussion on utilizing a 2 barrel instead of two singles comes up.
     
    I just smile, but then I know that when the stash of 2 barrel carter webers were found, its finder  put them on his website as a carb for a flathead mopar.  Its amazing how a market can be created and how quickly – “this is the way to go” spreads like rapid fire, without as much as any background check into something.
     
    But 1st, let me go back to the 1st time I heard the discussion on multiple carbs vs a single multi-barrel carb, or  put another way, comparing that “old technology carter ball and ball vs a modern 4 barrel carb”..
     
    It was about 45 Years ago, when I 1st  heard someone in a conversation with my Grandfather and my Dad, suggesting they knew a lot about Flathead Mopars and were  sporting a 4 barrel carb on a homemade intake.
    This gentleman had played with flathead Ford v8s and had came across a Dodge 2 door sedan from the mid-50s.  He was suggesting he had built the ultimate flathead Chrysler Engine and he was one of those guys that whatever he had at the moment was just the best and the only way to go. 
    Well after my Dad explained he had far from the ultimate flathead Chrysler, and that his wife’s daily driver (my Mom) was good enough to kick his ass, Dad pulled out my Mom's pickup.  It was sporting a bored out 265, with a cam, a factory dual intake and exhaust with a pair of carter ball and balls, and an a833 4 speed tranny.  After a little bit of fun that really wasn't much of a contest, licking his wounds sort of speak, Mr "Ultimate Flathead Chrysler" started down the road of excuses when Grandfather shook his head and cut him off at the pass.
     
     Grandfather like my Dad were automotive Engineers, and Grandfather literally knew more about Chrysler Flatheads than any person alive. Given he saw the very 1st flathead roll of the line in Windsor, Ontario Canada in 1935 and saw the last block cast in 1959, he had some pretty good credentials to give a lecture.
    What is explained in a few minutes was not only how the flathead engine worked, but why the engine this gentleman had came with only 1 carb failed to perform.
    Most think that 1 carb was put on the engine and that it has sufficient carburation for the engine, and if it needed more, Chrysler Engineers would have put more on.
     
    On a basic level that is true, but what engineering was building was an engine to a specific HP, torque  and fuel consumption target and not to get the most out of the engine, make it as efficient as possible or even have it run to anything close to 100% optimum performance. 
    By Optimum  performance I am not talking maximum  hp or maximum rpm or optimum fuel mileage on a vehicle.
     
    Grandfather then explained that in fact when Chrysler was faced with the need to meet a 5 ton truck specification for dump/plow trucks asked for by Canadian Municipalities during the winter of 1950, that the requirement  had  filtered to engineering in late 1950. They  developed the 265 ci motor which was 3 7/16" bore and 4 3/4" stroke and have dual carbs and dual exhaust on them, which was what was in Mom’s pickup.
     Few realize that that engine actually had more hp than any other engine on the market.  I will attach the picture of the poster that was on Grandfathers office at the time.  I gave it to George Asche Jr years ago.   In any case you can see the hot v8 mopar had in 1952 was 133 hp and the flathead 6 had more hp. As an aside Grandfather with the cam grind out of the 1952 Chrysler that engine exceeded 150 hp at the time, but given the time, energy and money that have been invested in the new Hemi v8 that was never going to see the light of day on any marketing information.
    That engine and the fact it had a factory intake, immediately became a stock car favorite in the 1952 season, when Mopar dominated stock car racing everywhere it landed.
    In any case Chrysler didn't just put on a second carb on it because they needed more carburation.  By then Chrysler already had Carter building Ball and Ball carbs from 85cfm -  425 cfm each and we now know they had a 625 cfm carter ball and ball single barrel carb if they needed it.
    The reason for two was the basic issue, some would call flaw, but Grandfather  would call basic restriction to taking the engine to the next level.  I say that folding back to the earlier point that Chrysler was building engine to a spec of "x" hp, "y" torque and "z" fuel consumption.
     
    The flathead 6 build by Chrysler has 3 Siamese intake ports,  each of which feed two cylinders.  Setting aside the exhaust for a second, and keeping in mind that an engine is really just a giant vacuum pump, putting 1 carb in the middle of the block, basically over the middle intake port feeding cylinders 3 and 4, means that if all cylinders are the same in compression ratio and ability to create vacuum and suck in a fuel mixture coming from the carb, then cylinder 3 and 4 are going to get more fuel than the intake ports feeding cylinders 1 and 2   or 5 and 6.   Yes Chrysler made intake modifications to help that, but they again were not trying to make the perfect engine, just have it meet specs required.
    As  a little aside if your look at intakes from the 1930s through to the 50s you will notice Chrysler Engineers raised the level of the carb. With the Dual Carb truck intake it also was raised further with governors placed under the carbs.   The height of the carb mounting above the intake posts can easily be seen to rise from the 1930s to the 1950s. 
    Its also why if your look at some of the aftermarket dual intakes made in the 30s and compare them to say the 3rd generation Edmunds in the 50s you will notice a huge difference in height. The raising of the carbs and providing a smoother run from carb to the intake ports saw huge benefits in performance. Of course maybe buried in the story is the fact that early intake was designed for a marine application where quick rev was far more the desired trait than was torque.   When the intake was moved to an automotive application you would find a quick rev with the clutch engaged, but disengaged there is a significant loss in torque and it will actually burn more fuel than a single carb.
     
    But back to my story, if we now add the exhaust component into your stock Mopar flathead (or L-head)  which depending on what year engine and what vehicle,  has the single exhaust exiting at one of a few  different locations. For this discussion lets  say it exits at the back as does the post ww2 cars.     What you find is as the cylinders push out exhaust there is almost no restriction or back pressure at cylinders 5 and 6,  but there is a great deal of back pressure at cylinders 1 and 2.   
     
    So here we have the most back pressure making it tough to push away the exhaust and actually the front intake port receiving the least amount of fuel. 
    While the engine meets specs with no problem, its clear that if you can balance the exhaust, by having 3 exhaust cylinders exit through 1 exhaust pipe and the other three through a 2nd pipe, you can better balance the exhaust back pressure.  We sort of glossed over the fact that while there are only 3 intake ports, each cylinder does have its own exhaust port.   Something that changed with the introduction of the slant 6, which had  6 equal intake runners each feeding a cylinder.
     
    Back to the flathead,  if we can better distribute fuel to balance the opportunity for each of the 3 Siamese ports to get fuel, then the engine will run more efficiently.   
    So if you were to take a big block 25 1/2" engine, and anyone of them, not just the 265 and put the factory dual carb and dual exhaust setup on it and then put on the appropriate carter ball and ball carb on it, it will gain hp, torque and improved fuel mileage.  The reason is it runs more efficient.  The same takes place with the 23 1/2" USA small block which has the same intake and exhaust configuration, although slightly smaller ports.
     
    If you take it one step further,  putting 1 carb on top of each intake port,  you can provide the optimum amount of fuel efficiency for the engine.
    Back to our 4 barrel friend,  putting on a large carb  just  provides a further opportunity to over fuel the center siamese intake port.  When he hammered the throttle it was actually not able to burn all of the fuel in the middle two cylinders and was “bogging” ,until it could gain enough RPM to use some of the fuel.   
    When he was running against Mom’s pickup which had more balanced back pressure, and a better distribution of fuel he had no chance even if the engines were internally the same. Of course they weren't but that is another story. 
    Years later when we created the AoK triple intake, we placed the first intake on  an almost rock stock 201 ci motor.  It had been rebuilt stock, although required to be bored out 10 thou to clean up cylinders. Beyond that it was a stock cam, intakes etc.  With 3 of the smallest CFM carter ball and ball carbs on board and headers made from a stock exhaust systems, the car ran smoother, had better acceleration and  got 6 miles per gallon better highway mileage over the single carb and single exhaust.    In the end, it is just a myth that you need some bored out, cammed up engine for 2 carbs and a full race motor for 3 carbs.
    The reason why Chrysler didn't run 3 carbs was simple. 1) The cost of 3 carbs was no inconsequential  2) They could meet the HP, Torque and Fuel useage targets with 1 carb.  The exception was when there was a time window where the dual carb, dual exhaust 265 ci motor was released, but with overhead valve v8s and Hemi's coming shortly after the multiple carb flathead life-cycle was short lived.
     
    There is a bit more it than that. I have glossed over a bunch of the engineering parts of why you don't just put a carb directly to each intake port with no equalization tube, but I am sure you get the drift.
    Unlike a v8 where you might try and make carbs progressive because your feeding a intake plenum that equally or close to equally feeding all 8 cylinders, the flathead engine has 3 intake ports each feeding 2 cylinders so progressive carbs just are not effective.  On the flathead Mopar, with either 2 or 3 carbs you want them to produce the exact same fuel to feed each of the Siamese ports exactly the same. Its not progressive in terms of additional barrels or carbs, its progressive by pushing on the gas peddle.
     
     The key is making sure both or all three carbs are identical and that you have linkage that operates all of them exactly the same. 
     
    Its a common misconception that they must be hard to keep synced. We have engines with tens of thousands of miles on them with multiple carbs and are never adjusted.  George Asche's 1929 Desoto that he has owned since 1950 likely has an unbelievable amount of miles on it and likely the  carbs were only touched when George has redone the engine.  I own vehicles with 100,000 + miles on them and the linkage for the dual carbs has never touched. That has a lot to do with just how good Carter Ball and Ball carbs are.. 
    We also get asked  quite often about modifying the block to provide 6 intake ports, or using webers or other carbs, or running fuel injection.   Dad and Grandfather with too much time on their hands, as my Mother would say,  did modify a couple of engines to provide 6 intake ports. There were several  intakes made including one with an 18" runner set on it, one with 6 side draft webers and one with modified hilborn fuel injection.
    At the end of the day, with various levels of success, nothing seems to outperform an Edmunds triple carb intake with riser blocks and 3 matched 1952-56 Truck carbs on them and maybe with some jetting changes.   Of course, since then we have developed a couple of new cam profiles and of course the AoK  triple which utilizes better and modern casting technology, as well as better flow bench testing and computer modelling that neither Chrysler or Eddy Edmunds had.    Have we thought about digging out the 6 intake port block that is still in Dad's shop, well yah we have, but that is another project and a blog entry for another time.
     
     


  5. Sad
    timkingsbury got a reaction from oldasdirt for a blog entry, Today I lost my second Mom..   
    Folks - I started to write this note on Monday on what was the 80th Birthday of my good friend, George Asche's wife June's 80th birthday. June has been in extremely poor health for the last 14 months and has surpassed all of the medical experts estimates. The last few weeks have been a struggle but when I dropped by to visit with flowers as I have done for now close to 20 years, she smiled, thanked me and tried hard to carry on a conversation. She was a very cool lady. She was both extremely talented musically as she was up to Nascar races and what Mopar projects were going on around the AoK world.
     
    So I started my blog entry to pay tribute to the lady who called me her third son, which always got a both smile from both of us as I would say, I am always proud to be your oldest son, even if I was your last child..
     
    Well, Monday was her 80th birthday and on Monday we started the celebration of her life as God called her home on her birthday. I apologize as I should have put up notification of her passing, but I just wasn't feeling
    up to it. On Wednesday evening there was a celebration of her life and the outpouring of love and support
    was incredible to see.
     
    At the end of the evening the count of the people who visited, was some how appropriate, being the magical Mopar number of 426!
     
    Thursday was her funeral service and it was a terrific service appropriate for just how special June was.
    It was an overflow crowd and was followed by a reception at the local church with enough food to feed a large army.... and I am not kidding.
     
    Here was the notice in the paper.
     
    http://www.fallerfuneralhome.com/obits/obituary.php?id=608005#.V18oeWWOgfE.facebook
     
    For those wondering how George is, I would say this. George and June have been married 60 years later this month. The loss of a spouse is a life changing event, but I know George well and he is at peace that his beloved June is today in a better place. June, like George was born again, and all of the family and close friends know that while June's time on earth has ended, her impact will go on forever and she is with God today, and likely either playing a guitar, piano, or watching a Nascar or NHRA race in heaven. George who was at June's side in the end as he has been on a constant basis during the last chapter of her life, I think finally got
    his 1st full nights rest in over a year this week.
     
    For those wishing to send a note to George, since I was asked today, George's address is 1693 Fertigs Road, Fertigs PA, 16364
  6. Thanks
    timkingsbury got a reaction from oldasdirt for a blog entry, My Dads Original " 1938 Desoto/Plymouth "Approved Service" double sided porcelain dealer sign.   
    This was my Dad's  original 1938 Desoto -  Plymouth Approved Service Dealer Sign.
    My Grandfather  had a later Desoto-  Plymouth sign and a Chrysler -  Fargo Trucks sign hanging on the outside of his shop, which he built after he retired from Chrysler Corporation. It was a 42" sign and of course Dad always admired it.     When Grandfather passed away the signs were sold at auction and the pair sold for $18,500 and after their sale Dad almost immediately started looking for one.  Years later on his first trip to our friend George Asche's he smiled when he saw George had one hanging  on his garage.     I took a picture of the pair of them in front of the garage and it became one of Dad and George's favourite pictures.   The meeting of the Northern and Southern Flathead Mopar minds. 
    In any case, it would be about a decade later when Dad would  finally see one come up for auction and of course it wound up costing more than  did the one that sold at Grandfathers Auction.
    During the lead up to the auction it came to light that dealer sign was an original 1938 sign and as we checked out the sign measured it, and then compared it to the one that sold at Grandfathers sale, there was indeed a slight difference in size.  Grandfathers was 42" and this one was 45". Grandfathers, well it had made its way back to Chrysler and was on display at the Walter Chrysler Museum.
    Given its age, it was in remarkable conditions when found (see picture of the pre-restoration sign) but after speaking to George who wished he had restored the enamel instead of painting its spots missing enamel, and speaking to the Curator at the Walter Chrysler museum it was decided to have it restored  by the best we could find.  It underwent a world class restoration on the few areas that needed attention, by the leading enamel sign restoration company, Don Van Kannel  - Van Kannel Sign Restoration and it is in absolutely spectacular condition.
    Sadly its restoration would take a number of years, and Dad would pass away without ever seeing it finished.
    The family has wrestled with keeping it, or selling it.  It had been appraised at $10,000 prior to it being restored and with the restoration cost, the imminent sale of Mom and Dad's place it really didn't make sense to keep it. So we put it up for sale and also consigned it to a large automotive memorabilia auction.   We got a few  people express interest, and a couple of trade offers, but nothing serious, so off it went to the automotive memorabilia auction with no reserve but a guarantee for the auction company on the minimum sale price.
    As our luck has seem to have gone lately, the sign appeared to sell at the auction for well above the guarantee the auction company had provided us.  But a couple of days after the  auction we were told that the buyer had failed  complete the sale.   Grrrrrrr, what else can you say.
     
    So the Sign today will go back up for sale, on Ebay and locally.
     
    Here is the listing -
     
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/252734854732?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649
     
    We have put it up for sale at way less that we have in the sign, but it needs a new home and we would really like to see it go to a new home.   The asking price is $7500 and that is pretty close to  a firm number. We might consider a trade for something, but it will need to be something one of the family wants, and then they will put the cash into the estate.
    If you have any questions feel free to drop me a note at fargopickupking@yahoo.com
    Thanks for your time
     
    Tim Kingsbury






  7. Like
    timkingsbury got a reaction from 40Club for a blog entry, George update, and AoK Intake updates   
    Howdy Folks -  I thought I would do an update on a few topics.  1st the most important one being my buddy George Asche Jr.  George who was hospitalized a few months ago continues to  be regaining his health at a rate  I think everyone including he himself find remarkable.  I was down last week and helped him build another engine and a bunch of other thing.   He continues to work through a long list of promised work, from engines and over drives, to intake, carbs and linkage.
    The last AoK racing triple intake for the big blocks was finished and shipped out. It is going on a 1937 Chrysler 6 cylinder. A very close to stock engine, with standard pistons, cam and  new undersized bearings. I have enclose a picture of that as well as George finishing off a fresh engine built and  one of the AoK -  George Asche Jr tribute intakes for the USA Small blocks.
    We down to just 1 or 2 of those .
    Next topic, intake updates:  As I have talked earlier, with our good friend Tom ceasing operations we had to move the casting of both the Triples for the Canadian 25 1/2" big  block flathead and the USA 23 1/2" dual carb intakes. We also sadly lost the services of George long time friend Bob Stover who was responsible for the machining of the AoK triples from when we 1st started to make them over a decade ago until God gave him the checkered flag and he passed away. Moving to a new supplier also  saw cost increases.
    We have worked closely with both suppliers as well as looked at other options for having them cast and machined elsewhere.  In the end, we were able to reduce the overall costs, and get the minimum order quantity down to the point that we are going to consider another run of intakes.
     
    Sorry Folks - Both AoK intakes are now sold out.  If you would like to be on a waiting list you can email us at  fargopickupking@yahoo.com
     
    Thanks
    Tim Kingsbury and George Asche Jr
     
     
    Below pictures are the AoK dual and triple intake that are being set up for the pre-WW2 cars ad all trucks, pickups and powerwagons which have linkage going down the intake/exhaust side of the blocks
     
     






  8. Like
    timkingsbury got a reaction from 51custom for a blog entry, Single Carb Intake, Dual Carb Intake, Triple Carb Intake, why not more ?   
    ·        
    ·       For Decades I have listened to people talk about Flathead Mopar 6 Cylinder Engines in terms of intakes, what is the best carb configuration for their particular situation.   
     
    Discussions on putting two carbs and those who claim to be sure that is too much carburation or that it will use to much fuel. Then every once in a while the discussion of 3 carbs comes up, and that almost always sparks the debate on how it would take a race motor to need it, or how the engine will bog, or run poorly.   In the last 20 years with a good friend of the AoK boys coming across a huge stash of 2 barrel carter weber carbs which were designed for slant six engines, the discussion on utilizing a 2 barrel instead of two singles comes up.
     
    I just smile, but then I know that when the stash of 2 barrel carter webers were found, its finder  put them on his website as a carb for a flathead mopar.  Its amazing how a market can be created and how quickly – “this is the way to go” spreads like rapid fire, without as much as any background check into something.
     
    But 1st, let me go back to the 1st time I heard the discussion on multiple carbs vs a single multi-barrel carb, or  put another way, comparing that “old technology carter ball and ball vs a modern 4 barrel carb”..
     
    It was about 45 Years ago, when I 1st  heard someone in a conversation with my Grandfather and my Dad, suggesting they knew a lot about Flathead Mopars and were  sporting a 4 barrel carb on a homemade intake.
    This gentleman had played with flathead Ford v8s and had came across a Dodge 2 door sedan from the mid-50s.  He was suggesting he had built the ultimate flathead Chrysler Engine and he was one of those guys that whatever he had at the moment was just the best and the only way to go. 
    Well after my Dad explained he had far from the ultimate flathead Chrysler, and that his wife’s daily driver (my Mom) was good enough to kick his ass, Dad pulled out my Mom's pickup.  It was sporting a bored out 265, with a cam, a factory dual intake and exhaust with a pair of carter ball and balls, and an a833 4 speed tranny.  After a little bit of fun that really wasn't much of a contest, licking his wounds sort of speak, Mr "Ultimate Flathead Chrysler" started down the road of excuses when Grandfather shook his head and cut him off at the pass.
     
     Grandfather like my Dad were automotive Engineers, and Grandfather literally knew more about Chrysler Flatheads than any person alive. Given he saw the very 1st flathead roll of the line in Windsor, Ontario Canada in 1935 and saw the last block cast in 1959, he had some pretty good credentials to give a lecture.
    What is explained in a few minutes was not only how the flathead engine worked, but why the engine this gentleman had came with only 1 carb failed to perform.
    Most think that 1 carb was put on the engine and that it has sufficient carburation for the engine, and if it needed more, Chrysler Engineers would have put more on.
     
    On a basic level that is true, but what engineering was building was an engine to a specific HP, torque  and fuel consumption target and not to get the most out of the engine, make it as efficient as possible or even have it run to anything close to 100% optimum performance. 
    By Optimum  performance I am not talking maximum  hp or maximum rpm or optimum fuel mileage on a vehicle.
     
    Grandfather then explained that in fact when Chrysler was faced with the need to meet a 5 ton truck specification for dump/plow trucks asked for by Canadian Municipalities during the winter of 1950, that the requirement  had  filtered to engineering in late 1950. They  developed the 265 ci motor which was 3 7/16" bore and 4 3/4" stroke and have dual carbs and dual exhaust on them, which was what was in Mom’s pickup.
     Few realize that that engine actually had more hp than any other engine on the market.  I will attach the picture of the poster that was on Grandfathers office at the time.  I gave it to George Asche Jr years ago.   In any case you can see the hot v8 mopar had in 1952 was 133 hp and the flathead 6 had more hp. As an aside Grandfather with the cam grind out of the 1952 Chrysler that engine exceeded 150 hp at the time, but given the time, energy and money that have been invested in the new Hemi v8 that was never going to see the light of day on any marketing information.
    That engine and the fact it had a factory intake, immediately became a stock car favorite in the 1952 season, when Mopar dominated stock car racing everywhere it landed.
    In any case Chrysler didn't just put on a second carb on it because they needed more carburation.  By then Chrysler already had Carter building Ball and Ball carbs from 85cfm -  425 cfm each and we now know they had a 625 cfm carter ball and ball single barrel carb if they needed it.
    The reason for two was the basic issue, some would call flaw, but Grandfather  would call basic restriction to taking the engine to the next level.  I say that folding back to the earlier point that Chrysler was building engine to a spec of "x" hp, "y" torque and "z" fuel consumption.
     
    The flathead 6 build by Chrysler has 3 Siamese intake ports,  each of which feed two cylinders.  Setting aside the exhaust for a second, and keeping in mind that an engine is really just a giant vacuum pump, putting 1 carb in the middle of the block, basically over the middle intake port feeding cylinders 3 and 4, means that if all cylinders are the same in compression ratio and ability to create vacuum and suck in a fuel mixture coming from the carb, then cylinder 3 and 4 are going to get more fuel than the intake ports feeding cylinders 1 and 2   or 5 and 6.   Yes Chrysler made intake modifications to help that, but they again were not trying to make the perfect engine, just have it meet specs required.
    As  a little aside if your look at intakes from the 1930s through to the 50s you will notice Chrysler Engineers raised the level of the carb. With the Dual Carb truck intake it also was raised further with governors placed under the carbs.   The height of the carb mounting above the intake posts can easily be seen to rise from the 1930s to the 1950s. 
    Its also why if your look at some of the aftermarket dual intakes made in the 30s and compare them to say the 3rd generation Edmunds in the 50s you will notice a huge difference in height. The raising of the carbs and providing a smoother run from carb to the intake ports saw huge benefits in performance. Of course maybe buried in the story is the fact that early intake was designed for a marine application where quick rev was far more the desired trait than was torque.   When the intake was moved to an automotive application you would find a quick rev with the clutch engaged, but disengaged there is a significant loss in torque and it will actually burn more fuel than a single carb.
     
    But back to my story, if we now add the exhaust component into your stock Mopar flathead (or L-head)  which depending on what year engine and what vehicle,  has the single exhaust exiting at one of a few  different locations. For this discussion lets  say it exits at the back as does the post ww2 cars.     What you find is as the cylinders push out exhaust there is almost no restriction or back pressure at cylinders 5 and 6,  but there is a great deal of back pressure at cylinders 1 and 2.   
     
    So here we have the most back pressure making it tough to push away the exhaust and actually the front intake port receiving the least amount of fuel. 
    While the engine meets specs with no problem, its clear that if you can balance the exhaust, by having 3 exhaust cylinders exit through 1 exhaust pipe and the other three through a 2nd pipe, you can better balance the exhaust back pressure.  We sort of glossed over the fact that while there are only 3 intake ports, each cylinder does have its own exhaust port.   Something that changed with the introduction of the slant 6, which had  6 equal intake runners each feeding a cylinder.
     
    Back to the flathead,  if we can better distribute fuel to balance the opportunity for each of the 3 Siamese ports to get fuel, then the engine will run more efficiently.   
    So if you were to take a big block 25 1/2" engine, and anyone of them, not just the 265 and put the factory dual carb and dual exhaust setup on it and then put on the appropriate carter ball and ball carb on it, it will gain hp, torque and improved fuel mileage.  The reason is it runs more efficient.  The same takes place with the 23 1/2" USA small block which has the same intake and exhaust configuration, although slightly smaller ports.
     
    If you take it one step further,  putting 1 carb on top of each intake port,  you can provide the optimum amount of fuel efficiency for the engine.
    Back to our 4 barrel friend,  putting on a large carb  just  provides a further opportunity to over fuel the center siamese intake port.  When he hammered the throttle it was actually not able to burn all of the fuel in the middle two cylinders and was “bogging” ,until it could gain enough RPM to use some of the fuel.   
    When he was running against Mom’s pickup which had more balanced back pressure, and a better distribution of fuel he had no chance even if the engines were internally the same. Of course they weren't but that is another story. 
    Years later when we created the AoK triple intake, we placed the first intake on  an almost rock stock 201 ci motor.  It had been rebuilt stock, although required to be bored out 10 thou to clean up cylinders. Beyond that it was a stock cam, intakes etc.  With 3 of the smallest CFM carter ball and ball carbs on board and headers made from a stock exhaust systems, the car ran smoother, had better acceleration and  got 6 miles per gallon better highway mileage over the single carb and single exhaust.    In the end, it is just a myth that you need some bored out, cammed up engine for 2 carbs and a full race motor for 3 carbs.
    The reason why Chrysler didn't run 3 carbs was simple. 1) The cost of 3 carbs was no inconsequential  2) They could meet the HP, Torque and Fuel useage targets with 1 carb.  The exception was when there was a time window where the dual carb, dual exhaust 265 ci motor was released, but with overhead valve v8s and Hemi's coming shortly after the multiple carb flathead life-cycle was short lived.
     
    There is a bit more it than that. I have glossed over a bunch of the engineering parts of why you don't just put a carb directly to each intake port with no equalization tube, but I am sure you get the drift.
    Unlike a v8 where you might try and make carbs progressive because your feeding a intake plenum that equally or close to equally feeding all 8 cylinders, the flathead engine has 3 intake ports each feeding 2 cylinders so progressive carbs just are not effective.  On the flathead Mopar, with either 2 or 3 carbs you want them to produce the exact same fuel to feed each of the Siamese ports exactly the same. Its not progressive in terms of additional barrels or carbs, its progressive by pushing on the gas peddle.
     
     The key is making sure both or all three carbs are identical and that you have linkage that operates all of them exactly the same. 
     
    Its a common misconception that they must be hard to keep synced. We have engines with tens of thousands of miles on them with multiple carbs and are never adjusted.  George Asche's 1929 Desoto that he has owned since 1950 likely has an unbelievable amount of miles on it and likely the  carbs were only touched when George has redone the engine.  I own vehicles with 100,000 + miles on them and the linkage for the dual carbs has never touched. That has a lot to do with just how good Carter Ball and Ball carbs are.. 
    We also get asked  quite often about modifying the block to provide 6 intake ports, or using webers or other carbs, or running fuel injection.   Dad and Grandfather with too much time on their hands, as my Mother would say,  did modify a couple of engines to provide 6 intake ports. There were several  intakes made including one with an 18" runner set on it, one with 6 side draft webers and one with modified hilborn fuel injection.
    At the end of the day, with various levels of success, nothing seems to outperform an Edmunds triple carb intake with riser blocks and 3 matched 1952-56 Truck carbs on them and maybe with some jetting changes.   Of course, since then we have developed a couple of new cam profiles and of course the AoK  triple which utilizes better and modern casting technology, as well as better flow bench testing and computer modelling that neither Chrysler or Eddy Edmunds had.    Have we thought about digging out the 6 intake port block that is still in Dad's shop, well yah we have, but that is another project and a blog entry for another time.
     
     


  9. Like
    timkingsbury got a reaction from 40Club for a blog entry, Floor shift concepts for Mopar column shift Transmssions   
    Howdy folks -
    Coming from another blog topic, which strayed down a back road, came the idea of  transmissions for Mopar Cars and Trucks that were post 1940 that came with  Column shift and the normally column shift transmission was modified or the linkage was to turn it into a 3 speed floor shift transmission.
    So this isn't about taking a vehicle that had column shift and putting a transmission for the 1930s or a modern floor shift transmission to make the vehicle floor shift. This is taking say a 1950s r10g1 overdrive and putting it into a 1930s car or a 1950s pickup and making it a floor shift.   It could also be taking a standard 3 speed column shift and making it into a floor shift in that same vehicle.
    Its not a new concept by any stretch.  My Dad put an r10g1 overdrive from a 1952 Plymouth into a 1951 Fargo pickup truck which had been a 3 speed column shift pickup. He had taken a Fenton floor shifter kit that was a kit to move column shifts and made a bunch of changes to get it to work.  The truck is long gone but we actually recovered the shifter which had been cut off at some point by the person who got the pickup.   I will take some pictures at some point for the fun of it.  We got it moving again but it would be too expensive to try and duplicate.  George has also built a very simplified for racing which is super simple, although I am not sure would work for regular street usage, and he also has one his Uncle Harry Hein's made but duplicating it, is a project that hasn't quite made it to the top of the pile.
    We also have several pictures of guys who have done them, although most are pretty heavily involved and some quite clunky looking.
    All that being said, the reason I started this was -  Paul aka   
    pflaming  had posted a picture of his project of making a traditional 3 speed floor shift Plymouth transmission, and turning it into a floor shift, which really was the impetus for this blog idea. 
    "The shifter I fabbed from a photo, not my design. It is uncomplicated and will serve my purposes very well. The tranny and OD are not on the engine yet."
     
     

  10. Like
    timkingsbury got a reaction from 40Club for a blog entry, George update, and AoK Intake updates   
    Howdy Folks -  I thought I would do an update on a few topics.  1st the most important one being my buddy George Asche Jr.  George who was hospitalized a few months ago continues to  be regaining his health at a rate  I think everyone including he himself find remarkable.  I was down last week and helped him build another engine and a bunch of other thing.   He continues to work through a long list of promised work, from engines and over drives, to intake, carbs and linkage.
    The last AoK racing triple intake for the big blocks was finished and shipped out. It is going on a 1937 Chrysler 6 cylinder. A very close to stock engine, with standard pistons, cam and  new undersized bearings. I have enclose a picture of that as well as George finishing off a fresh engine built and  one of the AoK -  George Asche Jr tribute intakes for the USA Small blocks.
    We down to just 1 or 2 of those .
    Next topic, intake updates:  As I have talked earlier, with our good friend Tom ceasing operations we had to move the casting of both the Triples for the Canadian 25 1/2" big  block flathead and the USA 23 1/2" dual carb intakes. We also sadly lost the services of George long time friend Bob Stover who was responsible for the machining of the AoK triples from when we 1st started to make them over a decade ago until God gave him the checkered flag and he passed away. Moving to a new supplier also  saw cost increases.
    We have worked closely with both suppliers as well as looked at other options for having them cast and machined elsewhere.  In the end, we were able to reduce the overall costs, and get the minimum order quantity down to the point that we are going to consider another run of intakes.
     
    Sorry Folks - Both AoK intakes are now sold out.  If you would like to be on a waiting list you can email us at  fargopickupking@yahoo.com
     
    Thanks
    Tim Kingsbury and George Asche Jr
     
     
    Below pictures are the AoK dual and triple intake that are being set up for the pre-WW2 cars ad all trucks, pickups and powerwagons which have linkage going down the intake/exhaust side of the blocks
     
     






  11. Like
    timkingsbury got a reaction from 51custom for a blog entry, Single Carb Intake, Dual Carb Intake, Triple Carb Intake, why not more ?   
    ·        
    ·       For Decades I have listened to people talk about Flathead Mopar 6 Cylinder Engines in terms of intakes, what is the best carb configuration for their particular situation.   
     
    Discussions on putting two carbs and those who claim to be sure that is too much carburation or that it will use to much fuel. Then every once in a while the discussion of 3 carbs comes up, and that almost always sparks the debate on how it would take a race motor to need it, or how the engine will bog, or run poorly.   In the last 20 years with a good friend of the AoK boys coming across a huge stash of 2 barrel carter weber carbs which were designed for slant six engines, the discussion on utilizing a 2 barrel instead of two singles comes up.
     
    I just smile, but then I know that when the stash of 2 barrel carter webers were found, its finder  put them on his website as a carb for a flathead mopar.  Its amazing how a market can be created and how quickly – “this is the way to go” spreads like rapid fire, without as much as any background check into something.
     
    But 1st, let me go back to the 1st time I heard the discussion on multiple carbs vs a single multi-barrel carb, or  put another way, comparing that “old technology carter ball and ball vs a modern 4 barrel carb”..
     
    It was about 45 Years ago, when I 1st  heard someone in a conversation with my Grandfather and my Dad, suggesting they knew a lot about Flathead Mopars and were  sporting a 4 barrel carb on a homemade intake.
    This gentleman had played with flathead Ford v8s and had came across a Dodge 2 door sedan from the mid-50s.  He was suggesting he had built the ultimate flathead Chrysler Engine and he was one of those guys that whatever he had at the moment was just the best and the only way to go. 
    Well after my Dad explained he had far from the ultimate flathead Chrysler, and that his wife’s daily driver (my Mom) was good enough to kick his ass, Dad pulled out my Mom's pickup.  It was sporting a bored out 265, with a cam, a factory dual intake and exhaust with a pair of carter ball and balls, and an a833 4 speed tranny.  After a little bit of fun that really wasn't much of a contest, licking his wounds sort of speak, Mr "Ultimate Flathead Chrysler" started down the road of excuses when Grandfather shook his head and cut him off at the pass.
     
     Grandfather like my Dad were automotive Engineers, and Grandfather literally knew more about Chrysler Flatheads than any person alive. Given he saw the very 1st flathead roll of the line in Windsor, Ontario Canada in 1935 and saw the last block cast in 1959, he had some pretty good credentials to give a lecture.
    What is explained in a few minutes was not only how the flathead engine worked, but why the engine this gentleman had came with only 1 carb failed to perform.
    Most think that 1 carb was put on the engine and that it has sufficient carburation for the engine, and if it needed more, Chrysler Engineers would have put more on.
     
    On a basic level that is true, but what engineering was building was an engine to a specific HP, torque  and fuel consumption target and not to get the most out of the engine, make it as efficient as possible or even have it run to anything close to 100% optimum performance. 
    By Optimum  performance I am not talking maximum  hp or maximum rpm or optimum fuel mileage on a vehicle.
     
    Grandfather then explained that in fact when Chrysler was faced with the need to meet a 5 ton truck specification for dump/plow trucks asked for by Canadian Municipalities during the winter of 1950, that the requirement  had  filtered to engineering in late 1950. They  developed the 265 ci motor which was 3 7/16" bore and 4 3/4" stroke and have dual carbs and dual exhaust on them, which was what was in Mom’s pickup.
     Few realize that that engine actually had more hp than any other engine on the market.  I will attach the picture of the poster that was on Grandfathers office at the time.  I gave it to George Asche Jr years ago.   In any case you can see the hot v8 mopar had in 1952 was 133 hp and the flathead 6 had more hp. As an aside Grandfather with the cam grind out of the 1952 Chrysler that engine exceeded 150 hp at the time, but given the time, energy and money that have been invested in the new Hemi v8 that was never going to see the light of day on any marketing information.
    That engine and the fact it had a factory intake, immediately became a stock car favorite in the 1952 season, when Mopar dominated stock car racing everywhere it landed.
    In any case Chrysler didn't just put on a second carb on it because they needed more carburation.  By then Chrysler already had Carter building Ball and Ball carbs from 85cfm -  425 cfm each and we now know they had a 625 cfm carter ball and ball single barrel carb if they needed it.
    The reason for two was the basic issue, some would call flaw, but Grandfather  would call basic restriction to taking the engine to the next level.  I say that folding back to the earlier point that Chrysler was building engine to a spec of "x" hp, "y" torque and "z" fuel consumption.
     
    The flathead 6 build by Chrysler has 3 Siamese intake ports,  each of which feed two cylinders.  Setting aside the exhaust for a second, and keeping in mind that an engine is really just a giant vacuum pump, putting 1 carb in the middle of the block, basically over the middle intake port feeding cylinders 3 and 4, means that if all cylinders are the same in compression ratio and ability to create vacuum and suck in a fuel mixture coming from the carb, then cylinder 3 and 4 are going to get more fuel than the intake ports feeding cylinders 1 and 2   or 5 and 6.   Yes Chrysler made intake modifications to help that, but they again were not trying to make the perfect engine, just have it meet specs required.
    As  a little aside if your look at intakes from the 1930s through to the 50s you will notice Chrysler Engineers raised the level of the carb. With the Dual Carb truck intake it also was raised further with governors placed under the carbs.   The height of the carb mounting above the intake posts can easily be seen to rise from the 1930s to the 1950s. 
    Its also why if your look at some of the aftermarket dual intakes made in the 30s and compare them to say the 3rd generation Edmunds in the 50s you will notice a huge difference in height. The raising of the carbs and providing a smoother run from carb to the intake ports saw huge benefits in performance. Of course maybe buried in the story is the fact that early intake was designed for a marine application where quick rev was far more the desired trait than was torque.   When the intake was moved to an automotive application you would find a quick rev with the clutch engaged, but disengaged there is a significant loss in torque and it will actually burn more fuel than a single carb.
     
    But back to my story, if we now add the exhaust component into your stock Mopar flathead (or L-head)  which depending on what year engine and what vehicle,  has the single exhaust exiting at one of a few  different locations. For this discussion lets  say it exits at the back as does the post ww2 cars.     What you find is as the cylinders push out exhaust there is almost no restriction or back pressure at cylinders 5 and 6,  but there is a great deal of back pressure at cylinders 1 and 2.   
     
    So here we have the most back pressure making it tough to push away the exhaust and actually the front intake port receiving the least amount of fuel. 
    While the engine meets specs with no problem, its clear that if you can balance the exhaust, by having 3 exhaust cylinders exit through 1 exhaust pipe and the other three through a 2nd pipe, you can better balance the exhaust back pressure.  We sort of glossed over the fact that while there are only 3 intake ports, each cylinder does have its own exhaust port.   Something that changed with the introduction of the slant 6, which had  6 equal intake runners each feeding a cylinder.
     
    Back to the flathead,  if we can better distribute fuel to balance the opportunity for each of the 3 Siamese ports to get fuel, then the engine will run more efficiently.   
    So if you were to take a big block 25 1/2" engine, and anyone of them, not just the 265 and put the factory dual carb and dual exhaust setup on it and then put on the appropriate carter ball and ball carb on it, it will gain hp, torque and improved fuel mileage.  The reason is it runs more efficient.  The same takes place with the 23 1/2" USA small block which has the same intake and exhaust configuration, although slightly smaller ports.
     
    If you take it one step further,  putting 1 carb on top of each intake port,  you can provide the optimum amount of fuel efficiency for the engine.
    Back to our 4 barrel friend,  putting on a large carb  just  provides a further opportunity to over fuel the center siamese intake port.  When he hammered the throttle it was actually not able to burn all of the fuel in the middle two cylinders and was “bogging” ,until it could gain enough RPM to use some of the fuel.   
    When he was running against Mom’s pickup which had more balanced back pressure, and a better distribution of fuel he had no chance even if the engines were internally the same. Of course they weren't but that is another story. 
    Years later when we created the AoK triple intake, we placed the first intake on  an almost rock stock 201 ci motor.  It had been rebuilt stock, although required to be bored out 10 thou to clean up cylinders. Beyond that it was a stock cam, intakes etc.  With 3 of the smallest CFM carter ball and ball carbs on board and headers made from a stock exhaust systems, the car ran smoother, had better acceleration and  got 6 miles per gallon better highway mileage over the single carb and single exhaust.    In the end, it is just a myth that you need some bored out, cammed up engine for 2 carbs and a full race motor for 3 carbs.
    The reason why Chrysler didn't run 3 carbs was simple. 1) The cost of 3 carbs was no inconsequential  2) They could meet the HP, Torque and Fuel useage targets with 1 carb.  The exception was when there was a time window where the dual carb, dual exhaust 265 ci motor was released, but with overhead valve v8s and Hemi's coming shortly after the multiple carb flathead life-cycle was short lived.
     
    There is a bit more it than that. I have glossed over a bunch of the engineering parts of why you don't just put a carb directly to each intake port with no equalization tube, but I am sure you get the drift.
    Unlike a v8 where you might try and make carbs progressive because your feeding a intake plenum that equally or close to equally feeding all 8 cylinders, the flathead engine has 3 intake ports each feeding 2 cylinders so progressive carbs just are not effective.  On the flathead Mopar, with either 2 or 3 carbs you want them to produce the exact same fuel to feed each of the Siamese ports exactly the same. Its not progressive in terms of additional barrels or carbs, its progressive by pushing on the gas peddle.
     
     The key is making sure both or all three carbs are identical and that you have linkage that operates all of them exactly the same. 
     
    Its a common misconception that they must be hard to keep synced. We have engines with tens of thousands of miles on them with multiple carbs and are never adjusted.  George Asche's 1929 Desoto that he has owned since 1950 likely has an unbelievable amount of miles on it and likely the  carbs were only touched when George has redone the engine.  I own vehicles with 100,000 + miles on them and the linkage for the dual carbs has never touched. That has a lot to do with just how good Carter Ball and Ball carbs are.. 
    We also get asked  quite often about modifying the block to provide 6 intake ports, or using webers or other carbs, or running fuel injection.   Dad and Grandfather with too much time on their hands, as my Mother would say,  did modify a couple of engines to provide 6 intake ports. There were several  intakes made including one with an 18" runner set on it, one with 6 side draft webers and one with modified hilborn fuel injection.
    At the end of the day, with various levels of success, nothing seems to outperform an Edmunds triple carb intake with riser blocks and 3 matched 1952-56 Truck carbs on them and maybe with some jetting changes.   Of course, since then we have developed a couple of new cam profiles and of course the AoK  triple which utilizes better and modern casting technology, as well as better flow bench testing and computer modelling that neither Chrysler or Eddy Edmunds had.    Have we thought about digging out the 6 intake port block that is still in Dad's shop, well yah we have, but that is another project and a blog entry for another time.
     
     


  12. Like
    timkingsbury got a reaction from 40Club for a blog entry, George update, and AoK Intake updates   
    Howdy Folks -  I thought I would do an update on a few topics.  1st the most important one being my buddy George Asche Jr.  George who was hospitalized a few months ago continues to  be regaining his health at a rate  I think everyone including he himself find remarkable.  I was down last week and helped him build another engine and a bunch of other thing.   He continues to work through a long list of promised work, from engines and over drives, to intake, carbs and linkage.
    The last AoK racing triple intake for the big blocks was finished and shipped out. It is going on a 1937 Chrysler 6 cylinder. A very close to stock engine, with standard pistons, cam and  new undersized bearings. I have enclose a picture of that as well as George finishing off a fresh engine built and  one of the AoK -  George Asche Jr tribute intakes for the USA Small blocks.
    We down to just 1 or 2 of those .
    Next topic, intake updates:  As I have talked earlier, with our good friend Tom ceasing operations we had to move the casting of both the Triples for the Canadian 25 1/2" big  block flathead and the USA 23 1/2" dual carb intakes. We also sadly lost the services of George long time friend Bob Stover who was responsible for the machining of the AoK triples from when we 1st started to make them over a decade ago until God gave him the checkered flag and he passed away. Moving to a new supplier also  saw cost increases.
    We have worked closely with both suppliers as well as looked at other options for having them cast and machined elsewhere.  In the end, we were able to reduce the overall costs, and get the minimum order quantity down to the point that we are going to consider another run of intakes.
     
    Sorry Folks - Both AoK intakes are now sold out.  If you would like to be on a waiting list you can email us at  fargopickupking@yahoo.com
     
    Thanks
    Tim Kingsbury and George Asche Jr
     
     
    Below pictures are the AoK dual and triple intake that are being set up for the pre-WW2 cars ad all trucks, pickups and powerwagons which have linkage going down the intake/exhaust side of the blocks
     
     






  13. Like
    timkingsbury got a reaction from 51custom for a blog entry, Single Carb Intake, Dual Carb Intake, Triple Carb Intake, why not more ?   
    ·        
    ·       For Decades I have listened to people talk about Flathead Mopar 6 Cylinder Engines in terms of intakes, what is the best carb configuration for their particular situation.   
     
    Discussions on putting two carbs and those who claim to be sure that is too much carburation or that it will use to much fuel. Then every once in a while the discussion of 3 carbs comes up, and that almost always sparks the debate on how it would take a race motor to need it, or how the engine will bog, or run poorly.   In the last 20 years with a good friend of the AoK boys coming across a huge stash of 2 barrel carter weber carbs which were designed for slant six engines, the discussion on utilizing a 2 barrel instead of two singles comes up.
     
    I just smile, but then I know that when the stash of 2 barrel carter webers were found, its finder  put them on his website as a carb for a flathead mopar.  Its amazing how a market can be created and how quickly – “this is the way to go” spreads like rapid fire, without as much as any background check into something.
     
    But 1st, let me go back to the 1st time I heard the discussion on multiple carbs vs a single multi-barrel carb, or  put another way, comparing that “old technology carter ball and ball vs a modern 4 barrel carb”..
     
    It was about 45 Years ago, when I 1st  heard someone in a conversation with my Grandfather and my Dad, suggesting they knew a lot about Flathead Mopars and were  sporting a 4 barrel carb on a homemade intake.
    This gentleman had played with flathead Ford v8s and had came across a Dodge 2 door sedan from the mid-50s.  He was suggesting he had built the ultimate flathead Chrysler Engine and he was one of those guys that whatever he had at the moment was just the best and the only way to go. 
    Well after my Dad explained he had far from the ultimate flathead Chrysler, and that his wife’s daily driver (my Mom) was good enough to kick his ass, Dad pulled out my Mom's pickup.  It was sporting a bored out 265, with a cam, a factory dual intake and exhaust with a pair of carter ball and balls, and an a833 4 speed tranny.  After a little bit of fun that really wasn't much of a contest, licking his wounds sort of speak, Mr "Ultimate Flathead Chrysler" started down the road of excuses when Grandfather shook his head and cut him off at the pass.
     
     Grandfather like my Dad were automotive Engineers, and Grandfather literally knew more about Chrysler Flatheads than any person alive. Given he saw the very 1st flathead roll of the line in Windsor, Ontario Canada in 1935 and saw the last block cast in 1959, he had some pretty good credentials to give a lecture.
    What is explained in a few minutes was not only how the flathead engine worked, but why the engine this gentleman had came with only 1 carb failed to perform.
    Most think that 1 carb was put on the engine and that it has sufficient carburation for the engine, and if it needed more, Chrysler Engineers would have put more on.
     
    On a basic level that is true, but what engineering was building was an engine to a specific HP, torque  and fuel consumption target and not to get the most out of the engine, make it as efficient as possible or even have it run to anything close to 100% optimum performance. 
    By Optimum  performance I am not talking maximum  hp or maximum rpm or optimum fuel mileage on a vehicle.
     
    Grandfather then explained that in fact when Chrysler was faced with the need to meet a 5 ton truck specification for dump/plow trucks asked for by Canadian Municipalities during the winter of 1950, that the requirement  had  filtered to engineering in late 1950. They  developed the 265 ci motor which was 3 7/16" bore and 4 3/4" stroke and have dual carbs and dual exhaust on them, which was what was in Mom’s pickup.
     Few realize that that engine actually had more hp than any other engine on the market.  I will attach the picture of the poster that was on Grandfathers office at the time.  I gave it to George Asche Jr years ago.   In any case you can see the hot v8 mopar had in 1952 was 133 hp and the flathead 6 had more hp. As an aside Grandfather with the cam grind out of the 1952 Chrysler that engine exceeded 150 hp at the time, but given the time, energy and money that have been invested in the new Hemi v8 that was never going to see the light of day on any marketing information.
    That engine and the fact it had a factory intake, immediately became a stock car favorite in the 1952 season, when Mopar dominated stock car racing everywhere it landed.
    In any case Chrysler didn't just put on a second carb on it because they needed more carburation.  By then Chrysler already had Carter building Ball and Ball carbs from 85cfm -  425 cfm each and we now know they had a 625 cfm carter ball and ball single barrel carb if they needed it.
    The reason for two was the basic issue, some would call flaw, but Grandfather  would call basic restriction to taking the engine to the next level.  I say that folding back to the earlier point that Chrysler was building engine to a spec of "x" hp, "y" torque and "z" fuel consumption.
     
    The flathead 6 build by Chrysler has 3 Siamese intake ports,  each of which feed two cylinders.  Setting aside the exhaust for a second, and keeping in mind that an engine is really just a giant vacuum pump, putting 1 carb in the middle of the block, basically over the middle intake port feeding cylinders 3 and 4, means that if all cylinders are the same in compression ratio and ability to create vacuum and suck in a fuel mixture coming from the carb, then cylinder 3 and 4 are going to get more fuel than the intake ports feeding cylinders 1 and 2   or 5 and 6.   Yes Chrysler made intake modifications to help that, but they again were not trying to make the perfect engine, just have it meet specs required.
    As  a little aside if your look at intakes from the 1930s through to the 50s you will notice Chrysler Engineers raised the level of the carb. With the Dual Carb truck intake it also was raised further with governors placed under the carbs.   The height of the carb mounting above the intake posts can easily be seen to rise from the 1930s to the 1950s. 
    Its also why if your look at some of the aftermarket dual intakes made in the 30s and compare them to say the 3rd generation Edmunds in the 50s you will notice a huge difference in height. The raising of the carbs and providing a smoother run from carb to the intake ports saw huge benefits in performance. Of course maybe buried in the story is the fact that early intake was designed for a marine application where quick rev was far more the desired trait than was torque.   When the intake was moved to an automotive application you would find a quick rev with the clutch engaged, but disengaged there is a significant loss in torque and it will actually burn more fuel than a single carb.
     
    But back to my story, if we now add the exhaust component into your stock Mopar flathead (or L-head)  which depending on what year engine and what vehicle,  has the single exhaust exiting at one of a few  different locations. For this discussion lets  say it exits at the back as does the post ww2 cars.     What you find is as the cylinders push out exhaust there is almost no restriction or back pressure at cylinders 5 and 6,  but there is a great deal of back pressure at cylinders 1 and 2.   
     
    So here we have the most back pressure making it tough to push away the exhaust and actually the front intake port receiving the least amount of fuel. 
    While the engine meets specs with no problem, its clear that if you can balance the exhaust, by having 3 exhaust cylinders exit through 1 exhaust pipe and the other three through a 2nd pipe, you can better balance the exhaust back pressure.  We sort of glossed over the fact that while there are only 3 intake ports, each cylinder does have its own exhaust port.   Something that changed with the introduction of the slant 6, which had  6 equal intake runners each feeding a cylinder.
     
    Back to the flathead,  if we can better distribute fuel to balance the opportunity for each of the 3 Siamese ports to get fuel, then the engine will run more efficiently.   
    So if you were to take a big block 25 1/2" engine, and anyone of them, not just the 265 and put the factory dual carb and dual exhaust setup on it and then put on the appropriate carter ball and ball carb on it, it will gain hp, torque and improved fuel mileage.  The reason is it runs more efficient.  The same takes place with the 23 1/2" USA small block which has the same intake and exhaust configuration, although slightly smaller ports.
     
    If you take it one step further,  putting 1 carb on top of each intake port,  you can provide the optimum amount of fuel efficiency for the engine.
    Back to our 4 barrel friend,  putting on a large carb  just  provides a further opportunity to over fuel the center siamese intake port.  When he hammered the throttle it was actually not able to burn all of the fuel in the middle two cylinders and was “bogging” ,until it could gain enough RPM to use some of the fuel.   
    When he was running against Mom’s pickup which had more balanced back pressure, and a better distribution of fuel he had no chance even if the engines were internally the same. Of course they weren't but that is another story. 
    Years later when we created the AoK triple intake, we placed the first intake on  an almost rock stock 201 ci motor.  It had been rebuilt stock, although required to be bored out 10 thou to clean up cylinders. Beyond that it was a stock cam, intakes etc.  With 3 of the smallest CFM carter ball and ball carbs on board and headers made from a stock exhaust systems, the car ran smoother, had better acceleration and  got 6 miles per gallon better highway mileage over the single carb and single exhaust.    In the end, it is just a myth that you need some bored out, cammed up engine for 2 carbs and a full race motor for 3 carbs.
    The reason why Chrysler didn't run 3 carbs was simple. 1) The cost of 3 carbs was no inconsequential  2) They could meet the HP, Torque and Fuel useage targets with 1 carb.  The exception was when there was a time window where the dual carb, dual exhaust 265 ci motor was released, but with overhead valve v8s and Hemi's coming shortly after the multiple carb flathead life-cycle was short lived.
     
    There is a bit more it than that. I have glossed over a bunch of the engineering parts of why you don't just put a carb directly to each intake port with no equalization tube, but I am sure you get the drift.
    Unlike a v8 where you might try and make carbs progressive because your feeding a intake plenum that equally or close to equally feeding all 8 cylinders, the flathead engine has 3 intake ports each feeding 2 cylinders so progressive carbs just are not effective.  On the flathead Mopar, with either 2 or 3 carbs you want them to produce the exact same fuel to feed each of the Siamese ports exactly the same. Its not progressive in terms of additional barrels or carbs, its progressive by pushing on the gas peddle.
     
     The key is making sure both or all three carbs are identical and that you have linkage that operates all of them exactly the same. 
     
    Its a common misconception that they must be hard to keep synced. We have engines with tens of thousands of miles on them with multiple carbs and are never adjusted.  George Asche's 1929 Desoto that he has owned since 1950 likely has an unbelievable amount of miles on it and likely the  carbs were only touched when George has redone the engine.  I own vehicles with 100,000 + miles on them and the linkage for the dual carbs has never touched. That has a lot to do with just how good Carter Ball and Ball carbs are.. 
    We also get asked  quite often about modifying the block to provide 6 intake ports, or using webers or other carbs, or running fuel injection.   Dad and Grandfather with too much time on their hands, as my Mother would say,  did modify a couple of engines to provide 6 intake ports. There were several  intakes made including one with an 18" runner set on it, one with 6 side draft webers and one with modified hilborn fuel injection.
    At the end of the day, with various levels of success, nothing seems to outperform an Edmunds triple carb intake with riser blocks and 3 matched 1952-56 Truck carbs on them and maybe with some jetting changes.   Of course, since then we have developed a couple of new cam profiles and of course the AoK  triple which utilizes better and modern casting technology, as well as better flow bench testing and computer modelling that neither Chrysler or Eddy Edmunds had.    Have we thought about digging out the 6 intake port block that is still in Dad's shop, well yah we have, but that is another project and a blog entry for another time.
     
     


  14. Like
    timkingsbury got a reaction from Dahoof for a blog entry, Solving the Modern Overdrive with a Floor Shift using Mopar Parts   
    I will start this Blog entry off with a cut and paste from an entry I recently posted on the forum.
     
    The preamble:
     
    I am not a fan of the non-mopar t5 transmission conversion. A great deal of those transmissions have gear splits that
    were meant for low horsepower, low torque engines and they just do not match up well to a flathead mopar. The are also in my opinion, a great deal of work to make the conversion. There are many models of the T5 transmission, with several having very little overdrive to them. As some have pointed out, when I posted a chart showing a great deal of the T5 transmissions, in at least one case a member who is a huge t5 supporter, editted his post as his transmission was not what he thought it was.
    That may should like a shot, it isn't meant to be, but what it is really is an illustration that a lot of guys have ventured into the t5 project without realizing what they are in for or what they even have. I do completely understand why so many having went though the conversion process, claim to be happy. They may indeed be, with all the work behind them and in some cases guys are not about to admit that they wished they have never went that route. At least one of those recently posted on the blog here, who was beyond frustrated with the project effort level and the results.
     
    Now having said that, there are some t5 with better splits and more overdrive than others, but given the work effort, the cost and the end product it still wouldn't be my first choice.
     
    The goal:
     
    I wont go into the ramble on why I still prefer the Mopar Overdrive solution, and why for me the 1952-56 R10G Borg Warner overdrive gives you in essence a 6 speed transmission, and concentrate on the pursuit of many. That being a easier to
    find Overdrive transmission that provides you with a decent level over overdrive, with a decent gear split and for many,
    the desire to have a floor shift in their car.
     
    There is also those with earlier (pre-1939) Mopar's that had a floor shift transmission and would like to keep that original cab look, but want an overdrive and cant find one of the floor shift overdrives from the 30's that came from Chrysler/Desoto.
     
    The Solution:
     
    A 1975 - 1987 Aluminum A833 4 Speed Transmission with overdrive.
     
    Yes, the A833 "bullet proof" transmission is the in essence the same transmission as the "cast iron" version of the 60's that went behind the 426 Hemi. Those transmissions tend to be very pricy and 4th is direct drive 1:1 so since were looking for Overdrive, the older cast iron A833 doesn't fit the bill. Although the 1975- 1987 Aluminum A833 certainly does!
     
    The details:
     
    Lets start with for the earlier Plymouth we have to deal with the "X" frame so the A833 becomes a great candidate for this application.
     
    I would use the Aluminum cased a833's 4 speed with overdrive which started part way into 1975 and went thru until mid 1987.
     
    Here is the gear splits:
     
    1st: 3.09:1, 2nd: 1.67:1 3rd: 1:1 4th: 0.73:1 (Trucks used a 0.71:1 fourth)
     
    The overdrive configuration with a 23-spline input appeared in these vehicles:
    o 1975 to 1979 Valiant, Duster, Dart, Scamp, Swinger, Volare, Aspen (3.09:1 ratio first gear)
    o 1975 to 1987 Dodge light-duty pickups and Dodge and Plymouth Vans (3.09:1 ratio first gear)
    o 1977 to 1979 Diplomat and LeBaron (3.09:1 ratio first gear)
     
    The "Coles note" version of what you will need to do and I will mix in the details concerning the "X-Frame" which only becomes relevant in the models from the 1930's. You will be using the original bell housing, not the one that came from the vehicle
    that had your donor A833 4 speed and yes ones like the bell housing in the pickups are large and might leave you
    the impression your on the wrong track.
    You will need and Adapter plate and screws to mount the transmission up to you stock bell housing. You do not
    need to make modifications to your bell housing
     
    * The Adapter plate kits (Plate and screws) are available from AoK. We do not have A833 transmissions for sale
    You will need to change your clutch to fine spline and you will need to make an adjustment to the connection of the A833 transmission to the drive shaft. You can change the yoke on your drive shaft so it will connect up to the new transmission or in many cases this may be the opportunity to put in a modern rear end which will allow you to use a modern driveshaft with the A833 and the new rear end. Will talk about that more in a second.
     
    ** Note: Sept 2015 we sold the last Adapter plate and our Supplier cranks up the price to the point that we are looking for another
    supplier. Will update this blog entry when we have more details.
    Nov 2105 - as covered below, we have got a new supplier and have the adapters and bolts (as a kit) for $125 USD plus
    shipping. That is the price for the next 25 at least and is priced really based on what the cost of the aluminum stock price is.
     


     
     
    You do not need to change your pilot bushing as it is the same as original.
     
    On 1937 – 39 Plymouth cars (with the X-Frame), you can cut bottom of x frame loop off - (half off) to get the transmission in place. Some think it is fine to leave it with the piece of X-Frame taken out, although it is easily to get it back in place so that would be my preference. The the last one I saw done, they made a bracket to put the x frame loop and then fasten the half of the X-Frame back in.
     
    Depending on which A833 transmission you get, you may have to make a minor modification of the bearing retainer. It is the round plate that has 4 bolts holding it on to the tranny.. A couple of the A833's have a longer housing and you need to unbolt it and cut some of the housing off. About an 1” 1/8”,
     
    For the 1937 we recently had a hand in, he used a 1966 dodge cornet rt clutch (10 ½”) and pressure plate that he bought from napa (called a clutch pack), however there are lots of great and inexpensive options there.
     
    You can change the yoke on the drive shaft to hook up to the A833 or change the rear end.
     
    For the 1937 Plymouth project I just mentioned, he put in a 1963-64 Chrysler New York rear end and it fit in perfect. It also had 3” x11” brakes and positraction and a 3:55 rear end ratio which with the a833 gives you 2.59 results as well gave you the emergency brake on the rear axle since you loose the emergency brake drum when you swap out your original transmission.
     
    Here is a handy chart on mopar rear ends that may come in handy depending on your application
     


     
    For the 1937 Plymouth which already had a floor shift, the shifter had to be modified slightly so it came up in the original position. Basically the shifter was modified to move it to the right (passenger side) and then up towards the firewall slightly ,to have it come up the original shifter position. Despite the two bends it shifts perfectly.
     
    If you are putting the A833 in an early pickup the shifter had to be modified to go towards the passanger 3/4" and then towards the firewall 1 1/2 and it shifts perfectly. In the pickup if your interested, when the snow leaves (about july.. lol) I have to go have a better look at the rear end. I cant remember if the drive shaft was modified to put the modern yoke or if the rear end was changed. I do know the A833 came right out of my Dad's 1982 Dodge pickup.
     
    The net in either gives you a floor shift transmission with decent overdrive ratio (0.73:1 or on the Trucks 0.71:1) and decent gear splits!
     
    For cars from the 1940s and 50's you don't have to deal with the "x-frame" so the project is even simpler. In terms of the shifter position coming through the floor, you will have a slightly better starting point than other modern floor shift transmissions, and keep in mind you can modify the shift to bend it towards the passenger if you like or towards the firewall.
     
    Personally in a 1948 Plymouth business coupe, we made no modification left (towards the passenger side) but bent it forward towards the firewall a bit just because for the driver (6 foot 2 inches) that is just where it felt the best. The point being you have a fair amount of flexibility in where you want the shifter to come up through the floor and then bend it to work best for you. For the 1946-48,Plymouth it seem the US cars may have a slightly different back mount with a cross over member being notched for the standard 3 speed. To then accommodate the lower a833 transmission, I am told you have to notch that cross over frame piece slightly to use the adapter and A833 transmission. For the 1948 Canadian Plymouth we did not have that issue.
     
    * Jan 2016 - We have been able to pull stock transmission out of 1946-48, 1949, and 1950 Plymouths made in USA and every
    one would require modification of the cross member as the A833 4 speed being deeper than the stock
    transmission is going to hit the cross member..
     
    Also remember that when you swap out your original transmission and move to any modern transmission, you have to consider what
    your doing for an emergency brake. As I covered above, the change of the rear end to a more modern rear end may solve that problem for you. There other options,
     
    1 such option would be something like - E-Stopp Electric Emergency Brake with Remote Push Button
     
    http://www.estopp.com/
     
    Here is the A833 illustration right from Dodge/Chrysler and then a view angles of a rebuilt tranny.
     










     
    ** Dec 22 2015 - Just to be clear, the A833 adapter plate is for Mopar 833 Aluminum 4 speeds for use in Mopar cars, and was not designed for use with the - 1981 -1986 Chevy/GM Truck Overdrive which I believe is a 833/RPO MY6. We were contacted in May by a customer and in the conversation it became apparent he was considering using a GM version of the transmission and he was told there appears to be a great deal of difference between it and the Mopar version of the A833. It appears he has been able to make modifications and get it to work and we will attempt to get a report from him, but up until now we have had zero experience trying to use
    A833 chevy truck transmissions with this adapter. That doesn't mean that this conversion cant be successful, but it does mean we don't have experience in doing this.
     
    There also appears to be interest in an adapter plate for the lighter truck bell housings, which as of now our adapter plate would be viable only for the 1955 and newer 1/2 tons using the column shift 3 speed and utilize the car style bell housing. The floor shift heavier 3 speed and lighter for speed (top bell housing below) and the heavier 4 speed in the 1 ton and lighter 2wd trucks with heavier 4 speeds that utilize the offset bell housing (bottom bell housing below) will not work with our current adapter plate and an a833 mopar 4 speed.
    Depending on demand we can make adapter plates for either. Let us know if you are interested.
     


     
    Feb 5 2016 -
     
    Well mission accomplished. We now have an adapter plate for the both heavy 3 speed floor shift and light 4 speed bell housings and heavier 4 speed bell housings. Bellow is the truck adapter which works for both, then a picture of it with the car and light 3 speed column shift for tucks, and then a picture of the two truck bell housings that the new adapter plate works with. Price is going to be $135 & shipping for the kit. The kit will be the adapter plate and 4 bolts required to mount the adapter plate to the truck bell housing.
     






     
     
    Bottom line: In the continental United States car adapter plates are $140 shipped and truck adapter platers are $150 shipped. Outside of that area cars are $125 + shipping and trucks are $135 + shipping.
  15. Like
    timkingsbury got a reaction from desoto for a blog entry, AoK George Asche Jr Ltd Edition Intake - now available!   
    Finally the AoK George Asche Jr Ltd Edition Intake for the all  23 1/2" USA flathead Mopar engines has been completed and is in production.
    The pictures below has prototype linkage for the 1933-1938 Cars and all trucks and power wagons.
    You may notice that the left carb linkage bar has been cut short, and is not hooked to the left carb. That is strictly for prototype purposes and the production versions have a longer bar  That allows for a linkage bar to come down from each carb to the common rail. It does shows how the serial number and linkage block provides the spot for stock linkage components to be mounted and then integrated with the new AoK linkages. That is critical for the earlier cars and trucks. You will notice for this version we are using the outside "wings"  for  linkage mounts.
    For newer cars where we want the linkage rail mounted on the inside, there are inside  "wings"  that are drilled and the rail is then on the inside wings. The outside block will then just be the serial number plate. Early cars and trucks are different in that they are on the outboard side of the intake, but they also have different connection points for the carbs to the common rail  as compared to later model cars..
    George has the linkage working perfectly for the several different applications.  If you are going to be using this on the truck or older car you would just use your stock brackets and the AoK linkage will just integrate with it, to give you the desired upgrade from the single to dual carbs. Oh yes, and hot debate on the name.. Our original intent was to have the writing read from the passenger side although you may notice it was reversed to be read from the other side.  In the production version, we have got the writing of "AoK George Asche Jr Ltd Ed" turned around and in a different font than the prototype.
    There were a couple of minor changes to the prototype, including making the outboard linkage mounting block slightly bigger, changing the name and a couple of internal items.   Today the 1st batch of production intakes are being poured. That process will continue for the balance of the week, they are heat treated and shipped to us.  We need to have the casted intakes machined, tapped and threaded which should see the 1st intakes ready to ship in the next 4-6 weeks.
    * Dec 3rd note: That casting turned out to be 1 being cast with the slight change talked about above. That one was heat treated and shipped to us. We called back and said why did you just ship us only 1.  The reply, they wanted to be really sure it was correct. They were given the go to cast a production run and more of our Big Block Triples which have been sold out for months. They have no been all cast and are off for heat treating on Monday.
     
    The intake has been a long time coming, even more so given the prototype was completed almost a year and a half ago.
    Now -   down to the brass tacks as my Grandfather would have said -   Cost !

    Feb 8 2017
    Were committed to the pricing for the 1st shipment as we feel customers have waited a long time patiently for the product and that was our original    We will be  repricing them upwards slightly as the development cost and the casting price has escalated well beyond where the estimates were when we started. Just the casting price is up 73%  which is an increase in the price of the aluminum.

    For linkage, if customers want us to make them linkage, it will start at $150 and really depends on what linkage is required.   By that I mean if a customer needs linkage for a 1933 Desoto, and if they don't have the linkage block tab, we can get that piece and will sell it at our cost, but it is a relatively expensive part.  If the customer has theirs and most do, then we will clean theirs up and paint it for them at no extra cost. If its linkage for a  1946-48 Plymouth, then it is very straight forward.

    Built carter ball and ball carbs are  $195.00 each and  the will be Siamese twins, meaning they will be exactly the same in their venture, throttle bore sizing and jetting, with all new kits in them and if a customer buys the entire package, George will mount the carbs, linkage, adjust everything and the customer wont have to pay anything extra for that or the carb gaskets.  * Note if you already ordered your intake with carbs, the price quoted you is still in effect, even though the cost of full rebuild kits just went up significantly.


    Shipping is extra and is at cost, or the customer can use their shipping preference  and if they have an account utilize that.  We don't charge for packing or handling.


    Our address is   George Asche/Tim Kingsbury 1693 fertigs Road,  Fertigs, PA 16364     

    I can be reached directly at Fargopickupking@yahoo.com  and we will accept
    paypal if it is send via family and friends so were not paying the paypal fee as there
    is literally no margin on these 1st batch of intakes.  We will also accept a cheque,  money order or if your
    driving by,  cash!
     
    A few notes:
    1) We will also be receiving a small number of the AoK triple intakes for the Canadian 25 1/2" big blocks. They have been sold out for over a year now so if you were looking for one of those we  will be able to ship finished triples by year end.  .
    2)  Headers made from OEM exhaust manifolds are available for both the USA small blocks and the Canadian big blocks. The last picture is  from my 1949 Plymouth Business coupe which has a Canadian 265 ci motor in it and the AoK Triple. Its the same basic look for either the 23 1/2" small block or 25 1/2" big blocks.
    3)  We now have a source for reproduction GMC (not the Chevy versions with major air restrictions).  You can get replacement air filters for them and they are available in Chrome tops or  Black. The Black versions are $125.00 and Chrome ones are $138.00. You can  see them here in a video posted by Fred Buhay.
    4) The Big Note to be aware of:  We expect to be able to ship finished intakes early next week, but there is not some big pile of built carbs or linkage sets made up and ready to ship and George hand makes every piece of linkage and rebuilds every carb completely from top to bottom.   So if your looking for linkage or carbs or both, on top of an intake, get your order in early as I expect to see a big back log in short order.  To date we have note taken orders or money, but have put people on a waiting list.  Everyone on that waiting list were alerted 48 hours ago and right now 1/2 of the 1st production run has been spoken for.   There is no fear that we will be unable to get people intakes, but the question of when we can supply is potentially a question.
    Finally if you would like us to call you and answer questions about either intake, we are happy to. Just drop me an email to fargopickupking@yahoo.com  with your phone number and when is a good time to contact you and George or I will give you a call.
     
     
     
     
     
     
     

     






     
    below is the AoK triple on my 1949 Plymouth Business Coupe.

  16. Like
    timkingsbury got a reaction from 40Club for a blog entry, The all Mighty Cam - Flathead Style   
    As suggested by Captain Fred in his blog entry on his 1940 Plymouth build, he wanted something done on cams.
     
    Well, that can be quite a topic, and while you can find all kinds of article on the "inter-web" on how cams work in an engine, my
    goal is to put a Flathead Mopar slant on the topic.
     
    Of course as my Grandfather used to say, an engine is nothing more and a large vacuum pump. Your cam turns lifting up intake
    valves, as pistons are being turned by a crank and that creates a vacuum. The vacuum sucks in whatever is near by into the engine.
    The cam turns a little further, closing the intake valve, we "light a candle" to whatever is in then in the cylinder and after what we hope is a controlled explosion, the cam turns a little further lifting exhaust valves and those pistons coming up push out whatever is left out of the engine..
     
    In the V8 world a great deal of people used to think that making power, aside from the "no replacement for displacement" concept was putting in a wild cam. As time went by in the racing world, while the cam was important, we know it is the heads that are a much bigger factor to the V8 world. Sure superchargers or turbo chargers, trying to jam more stuff into the cylinder and the type of fuel you use for your controlled explosion also became a big factor, but in the world of cam vs heads it is the heads that lead that world.
     
    In the flathead Mopar world, fuel isn't entering via the heads, and so it is definitely a cam that leads this world over the heads.
     
    Next lets talk about stock lift and duration and even there, Chrysler Corporation made a huge number of cam profiles so the second I toss this out here, its easy for someone to say - "my stock cam is different" and yes I know that.
     
    But in high level terms, a cam has two major factors and a few lesser factors. Lift and most of the p15-d24s were a 375 lift
    and then duration. Lift is how high the cam lifts the valve from its closed position, and duration is the degrees of the 360 degree circle that it keeps those valves open. In other terms how high we lift the valves and for how long we keep them open, whether intake or exhaust valves.
     
    Again high level - you are limited by how high you can lift the valves in a flathead by the head. Lift the valve too high and it hits the head. On the duration side, there becomes a point where you have kept the valves open too long and it starts to effect the actual vacuum level in your engine. Remember again, a big vacuum pump. as we open and keep open valves we loose the seal on the vacuum. Of course we do that because we want to get and fuel and air mixture into the engine.
     
    The change in duration also does things to the torque curve on your engine, but that is a whole different level of the discussion and I am trying to keep this more on the basic side.
     
    Again in general if we keep the intake valves open longer and lift the intake valves higher, we get the opportunity to get more fuel/air into the engine. More fuel and air, and yes, clearly effected by the compression ratio, the more "bang" when we ignite the mixture with the spark plug firing.
     
    Now, in the cause and effect department, generally as we raise up the valves higher (aka the lift) and hold those valves open longer (increased duration) we tend to change the rpm idle and things become what most of us call "lumpy". In the good old mopar v8 days of the 1970s I am sure lots remember pulling up to the lights with a guy running a "cammed up" motor and it was idling rough, shaking, coughing an weezing and yes that was also how the timing was set, but it was the duration of the cam that was causing that. When the light turned green and they hammered it, assuming the timing was set correctly, the goal was for that high lift cam to allow for a lot more fuel to get into the engine dramatically raising the RPM and turning the lumpy idling engine into a smooth running race engine.
     
    Yes I am isolating and slanting this entire discussion towards cams, when timing can also be a huge factor. No better example being when Big Daddy Don Garlitz was forced to use a 426 hemi after they actually ran out of 392 hemis. He couldn't get the 426 to run as well, and out of frustration he advanced the timing way way beyond what anyone would have thought would work. In fact Don often tells the story that he intended to blow the "blanking" thing up. But as the engine rev'd up that advanced timing suddenly brought out the inner Monster of the 426 Hemi and all of a sudden the 392 Hemi was obsolete in Don's mind!
     
    Back to our cams and remembering that the generation of car cams we are talking about were 375 lift. There are two school of thoughts on creating high performance cams. 1st is to raise the lift gradually and some pretty famous high performance cams raise the lift to 380 an and then increase the duration to 242 degrees. The 2nd is to raise the lift up as extreme as we can and also increase the duration. in the 1950s a pretty famous performance cam used a 400 lift. and 250 degrees of duration.
     
    The other factor without diving into the details to much, is what I call the split. A great deal of cams have the intakes open and the exhaust close at exact same time, but some use a split. So for example an Esky 3/4 miles cam the intake opens intake valves at 20 degrees and closes them at 50 degrees and the exhaust opens at 57 degrees and closes at 13 degrees.
     
    The Schroller full race cam - again a stock car racing - Higher lift and increased duration the Intake - has the intake valves open at 18 degrees and closes at 54 degree. The exhaust opens at 54 degrees and closes at 18 degrees.
     
    If you are using a turbo or a blower, you often want a period of time (number of degrees) in which the intake is close and the exhaust hasn't yet opened, or visaversa.
     
    The age old question is of course - so how much lift can I have before the engine sounds like it is misfiring. Almost always visions
    of those 1970 v8 engines coughing and wheezing are the reason for thing that. In reality the flathead just doesn't really act like a great deal of those badly timed, over cammed engines.. lol The reality is in the flathead world it is more a case of the rpm rises at idle than it is about it sounding like the 1970;s v8.
     
    Of course most want a cam that sounds like it is rock stock, idles like the engine isn't running, but then they want a Top Fuel Monster to come alive when they hit the throttle. That becomes a delicate balance and is always a compromise.
     
    So lets talk extreme. Maybe there is a wilder cam out there, but if there is we have never seen it. Ill keep the origins of this cam a little bit of a mystery, but the cam we use in the Velociraptor is the most extreme cam we know of. I chuckle these days as this phrase that seems to be in vogue again, but decades ago my Grandfather used to refer to a car that had this cam as "The Hot Mess Express".
     
    Today we call if the AoK Velociraptor Grind . It is tough to get it to idle below 2000 rpm and we have with a ton of work have
    actually gotten our dragster to idle around 1800 rpm. It will wind up to North of 7200 rpm. You can run an engine on alcohol and will need 3 carbs and need to shift to 6 exhaust pipes for at least 42", to get it to run properly. Its lift is are you ready, 446 and its duration is 280 degrees. At this point we definitely have issues with vacuum and it would be extremely rough at idle, thus increasing the RPM just
    to get it to idle. For those that figure that isn't possible, by reply is gather up and bring all the cash you can find, because I am happy to say - "How much would you like to bet!".
     
    Here us a link to 3 videos of the Worlds Fastest Dinasour
     
     
     
    Now from the extreme, to lets say a mid-50s truck cam which topped out around 3600 rpm, becomes the topic where many recipe's for
    performance have been made. Some by Chrysler Corporation for everything from cars, to boats, to combines and even Massey Harris 101 Super tractors powered by Chrysler Flatheads. The later were built for high torque and low rpm, which is great for plowing a field, but achieving a high way speed, not so much!
     
    Today I think we have a catalogue of around 25 cam profiles. Of those we have cam patterns that we use , made for about 6 or 7 cams and of those, the number drops down to 3 or 4 for most engine builds. I think right now among the Kingsbury motorized items we have 14 different cams in use. In the Asche fleet of motorized items I am going to say they have 7 different cam profiles. The major difference, lol, yes I have more junk... I have a marine version, several truck versions, a combine, a water pump, a welder, a compressor which actually uses 4 cylinders to run the engine and 2 cylinders to make air, and an engine that used to be in a certain motorcycle.. lol.. Oh and I have an actual cam from a tank engine, but it isn't in an engine. I could make a pattern if someone ever needed one !
     

    For Fred's engine, we used what many call an Esky 3/4 race cam. The 3/4 stands for stock car racing on a 3/4 mile long track.
     
    This is what I today call, a fairly mild cam and we likely sell the most of these. I suspect part of that reason is as I talked about earlier, that people think back to those lumpy, poorly idling v8 engines with wild cams.. The .380 lift cam is going to give Fred 4500 rpm quickly. Its been around a long time and has a quicker rev over stock and was used historically for stock car racing. As you can likely figure out by reading this thread so far, we likely sell the most of these because most guys think they want power..... but..... they want to start it and not hear the engine running or running like a sewing machine. Tons of guys call this cam a race cam.. For me, its far from that. The tech side = 242 degrees of duration and .380 lift
     
    Finally I will end the cam conversation for now, with the cam I am using in my 1949 Plymouth. It is what I call a little lumpy but still very much streetable and no, it is nothing like a 1970s over cammed v8 with bad or good timing..
     
    lol but it is definitely aggressive, with a .435 lift and 258 degrees of duration. This cam was developed from tweeking a full race cam through the 1950s and 1960s and was what Harry Hein #90 (NASCAR hall of fame) used at the end of his career. Harry who is still alive would be the uncle of one George Asche Jr. The intake valves open at 20 degrees and close at 58 degrees, while the exhaust opens at 58 degrees and close at 20 degrees.
     
    Here it is in my 1949, when it was started for the very first time, so its not tuned and its running 47" straight pipes out of the headers. It is a bored our 265 ci  25 1/2" Canadian big block flathead 
     
     
    And here is the same cam in a 230 ci USA 23 1/2" small block 
     
     
    I hope that helps a little Fred, without confusing things too much!
     
    Now what is in that Engine of yours, I can not confirm or deny what was originally put in the engine is what is in it now.. Who knows what happens in the middle of the night in George's shop... Only the shadow, or in this case the 1929 Desoto knows for sure.. lol
  17. Like
    timkingsbury got a reaction from 51custom for a blog entry, Single Carb Intake, Dual Carb Intake, Triple Carb Intake, why not more ?   
    ·        
    ·       For Decades I have listened to people talk about Flathead Mopar 6 Cylinder Engines in terms of intakes, what is the best carb configuration for their particular situation.   
     
    Discussions on putting two carbs and those who claim to be sure that is too much carburation or that it will use to much fuel. Then every once in a while the discussion of 3 carbs comes up, and that almost always sparks the debate on how it would take a race motor to need it, or how the engine will bog, or run poorly.   In the last 20 years with a good friend of the AoK boys coming across a huge stash of 2 barrel carter weber carbs which were designed for slant six engines, the discussion on utilizing a 2 barrel instead of two singles comes up.
     
    I just smile, but then I know that when the stash of 2 barrel carter webers were found, its finder  put them on his website as a carb for a flathead mopar.  Its amazing how a market can be created and how quickly – “this is the way to go” spreads like rapid fire, without as much as any background check into something.
     
    But 1st, let me go back to the 1st time I heard the discussion on multiple carbs vs a single multi-barrel carb, or  put another way, comparing that “old technology carter ball and ball vs a modern 4 barrel carb”..
     
    It was about 45 Years ago, when I 1st  heard someone in a conversation with my Grandfather and my Dad, suggesting they knew a lot about Flathead Mopars and were  sporting a 4 barrel carb on a homemade intake.
    This gentleman had played with flathead Ford v8s and had came across a Dodge 2 door sedan from the mid-50s.  He was suggesting he had built the ultimate flathead Chrysler Engine and he was one of those guys that whatever he had at the moment was just the best and the only way to go. 
    Well after my Dad explained he had far from the ultimate flathead Chrysler, and that his wife’s daily driver (my Mom) was good enough to kick his ass, Dad pulled out my Mom's pickup.  It was sporting a bored out 265, with a cam, a factory dual intake and exhaust with a pair of carter ball and balls, and an a833 4 speed tranny.  After a little bit of fun that really wasn't much of a contest, licking his wounds sort of speak, Mr "Ultimate Flathead Chrysler" started down the road of excuses when Grandfather shook his head and cut him off at the pass.
     
     Grandfather like my Dad were automotive Engineers, and Grandfather literally knew more about Chrysler Flatheads than any person alive. Given he saw the very 1st flathead roll of the line in Windsor, Ontario Canada in 1935 and saw the last block cast in 1959, he had some pretty good credentials to give a lecture.
    What is explained in a few minutes was not only how the flathead engine worked, but why the engine this gentleman had came with only 1 carb failed to perform.
    Most think that 1 carb was put on the engine and that it has sufficient carburation for the engine, and if it needed more, Chrysler Engineers would have put more on.
     
    On a basic level that is true, but what engineering was building was an engine to a specific HP, torque  and fuel consumption target and not to get the most out of the engine, make it as efficient as possible or even have it run to anything close to 100% optimum performance. 
    By Optimum  performance I am not talking maximum  hp or maximum rpm or optimum fuel mileage on a vehicle.
     
    Grandfather then explained that in fact when Chrysler was faced with the need to meet a 5 ton truck specification for dump/plow trucks asked for by Canadian Municipalities during the winter of 1950, that the requirement  had  filtered to engineering in late 1950. They  developed the 265 ci motor which was 3 7/16" bore and 4 3/4" stroke and have dual carbs and dual exhaust on them, which was what was in Mom’s pickup.
     Few realize that that engine actually had more hp than any other engine on the market.  I will attach the picture of the poster that was on Grandfathers office at the time.  I gave it to George Asche Jr years ago.   In any case you can see the hot v8 mopar had in 1952 was 133 hp and the flathead 6 had more hp. As an aside Grandfather with the cam grind out of the 1952 Chrysler that engine exceeded 150 hp at the time, but given the time, energy and money that have been invested in the new Hemi v8 that was never going to see the light of day on any marketing information.
    That engine and the fact it had a factory intake, immediately became a stock car favorite in the 1952 season, when Mopar dominated stock car racing everywhere it landed.
    In any case Chrysler didn't just put on a second carb on it because they needed more carburation.  By then Chrysler already had Carter building Ball and Ball carbs from 85cfm -  425 cfm each and we now know they had a 625 cfm carter ball and ball single barrel carb if they needed it.
    The reason for two was the basic issue, some would call flaw, but Grandfather  would call basic restriction to taking the engine to the next level.  I say that folding back to the earlier point that Chrysler was building engine to a spec of "x" hp, "y" torque and "z" fuel consumption.
     
    The flathead 6 build by Chrysler has 3 Siamese intake ports,  each of which feed two cylinders.  Setting aside the exhaust for a second, and keeping in mind that an engine is really just a giant vacuum pump, putting 1 carb in the middle of the block, basically over the middle intake port feeding cylinders 3 and 4, means that if all cylinders are the same in compression ratio and ability to create vacuum and suck in a fuel mixture coming from the carb, then cylinder 3 and 4 are going to get more fuel than the intake ports feeding cylinders 1 and 2   or 5 and 6.   Yes Chrysler made intake modifications to help that, but they again were not trying to make the perfect engine, just have it meet specs required.
    As  a little aside if your look at intakes from the 1930s through to the 50s you will notice Chrysler Engineers raised the level of the carb. With the Dual Carb truck intake it also was raised further with governors placed under the carbs.   The height of the carb mounting above the intake posts can easily be seen to rise from the 1930s to the 1950s. 
    Its also why if your look at some of the aftermarket dual intakes made in the 30s and compare them to say the 3rd generation Edmunds in the 50s you will notice a huge difference in height. The raising of the carbs and providing a smoother run from carb to the intake ports saw huge benefits in performance. Of course maybe buried in the story is the fact that early intake was designed for a marine application where quick rev was far more the desired trait than was torque.   When the intake was moved to an automotive application you would find a quick rev with the clutch engaged, but disengaged there is a significant loss in torque and it will actually burn more fuel than a single carb.
     
    But back to my story, if we now add the exhaust component into your stock Mopar flathead (or L-head)  which depending on what year engine and what vehicle,  has the single exhaust exiting at one of a few  different locations. For this discussion lets  say it exits at the back as does the post ww2 cars.     What you find is as the cylinders push out exhaust there is almost no restriction or back pressure at cylinders 5 and 6,  but there is a great deal of back pressure at cylinders 1 and 2.   
     
    So here we have the most back pressure making it tough to push away the exhaust and actually the front intake port receiving the least amount of fuel. 
    While the engine meets specs with no problem, its clear that if you can balance the exhaust, by having 3 exhaust cylinders exit through 1 exhaust pipe and the other three through a 2nd pipe, you can better balance the exhaust back pressure.  We sort of glossed over the fact that while there are only 3 intake ports, each cylinder does have its own exhaust port.   Something that changed with the introduction of the slant 6, which had  6 equal intake runners each feeding a cylinder.
     
    Back to the flathead,  if we can better distribute fuel to balance the opportunity for each of the 3 Siamese ports to get fuel, then the engine will run more efficiently.   
    So if you were to take a big block 25 1/2" engine, and anyone of them, not just the 265 and put the factory dual carb and dual exhaust setup on it and then put on the appropriate carter ball and ball carb on it, it will gain hp, torque and improved fuel mileage.  The reason is it runs more efficient.  The same takes place with the 23 1/2" USA small block which has the same intake and exhaust configuration, although slightly smaller ports.
     
    If you take it one step further,  putting 1 carb on top of each intake port,  you can provide the optimum amount of fuel efficiency for the engine.
    Back to our 4 barrel friend,  putting on a large carb  just  provides a further opportunity to over fuel the center siamese intake port.  When he hammered the throttle it was actually not able to burn all of the fuel in the middle two cylinders and was “bogging” ,until it could gain enough RPM to use some of the fuel.   
    When he was running against Mom’s pickup which had more balanced back pressure, and a better distribution of fuel he had no chance even if the engines were internally the same. Of course they weren't but that is another story. 
    Years later when we created the AoK triple intake, we placed the first intake on  an almost rock stock 201 ci motor.  It had been rebuilt stock, although required to be bored out 10 thou to clean up cylinders. Beyond that it was a stock cam, intakes etc.  With 3 of the smallest CFM carter ball and ball carbs on board and headers made from a stock exhaust systems, the car ran smoother, had better acceleration and  got 6 miles per gallon better highway mileage over the single carb and single exhaust.    In the end, it is just a myth that you need some bored out, cammed up engine for 2 carbs and a full race motor for 3 carbs.
    The reason why Chrysler didn't run 3 carbs was simple. 1) The cost of 3 carbs was no inconsequential  2) They could meet the HP, Torque and Fuel useage targets with 1 carb.  The exception was when there was a time window where the dual carb, dual exhaust 265 ci motor was released, but with overhead valve v8s and Hemi's coming shortly after the multiple carb flathead life-cycle was short lived.
     
    There is a bit more it than that. I have glossed over a bunch of the engineering parts of why you don't just put a carb directly to each intake port with no equalization tube, but I am sure you get the drift.
    Unlike a v8 where you might try and make carbs progressive because your feeding a intake plenum that equally or close to equally feeding all 8 cylinders, the flathead engine has 3 intake ports each feeding 2 cylinders so progressive carbs just are not effective.  On the flathead Mopar, with either 2 or 3 carbs you want them to produce the exact same fuel to feed each of the Siamese ports exactly the same. Its not progressive in terms of additional barrels or carbs, its progressive by pushing on the gas peddle.
     
     The key is making sure both or all three carbs are identical and that you have linkage that operates all of them exactly the same. 
     
    Its a common misconception that they must be hard to keep synced. We have engines with tens of thousands of miles on them with multiple carbs and are never adjusted.  George Asche's 1929 Desoto that he has owned since 1950 likely has an unbelievable amount of miles on it and likely the  carbs were only touched when George has redone the engine.  I own vehicles with 100,000 + miles on them and the linkage for the dual carbs has never touched. That has a lot to do with just how good Carter Ball and Ball carbs are.. 
    We also get asked  quite often about modifying the block to provide 6 intake ports, or using webers or other carbs, or running fuel injection.   Dad and Grandfather with too much time on their hands, as my Mother would say,  did modify a couple of engines to provide 6 intake ports. There were several  intakes made including one with an 18" runner set on it, one with 6 side draft webers and one with modified hilborn fuel injection.
    At the end of the day, with various levels of success, nothing seems to outperform an Edmunds triple carb intake with riser blocks and 3 matched 1952-56 Truck carbs on them and maybe with some jetting changes.   Of course, since then we have developed a couple of new cam profiles and of course the AoK  triple which utilizes better and modern casting technology, as well as better flow bench testing and computer modelling that neither Chrysler or Eddy Edmunds had.    Have we thought about digging out the 6 intake port block that is still in Dad's shop, well yah we have, but that is another project and a blog entry for another time.
     
     


  18. Like
    timkingsbury got a reaction from desoto for a blog entry, AoK George Asche Jr Ltd Edition Intake - now available!   
    Finally the AoK George Asche Jr Ltd Edition Intake for the all  23 1/2" USA flathead Mopar engines has been completed and is in production.
    The pictures below has prototype linkage for the 1933-1938 Cars and all trucks and power wagons.
    You may notice that the left carb linkage bar has been cut short, and is not hooked to the left carb. That is strictly for prototype purposes and the production versions have a longer bar  That allows for a linkage bar to come down from each carb to the common rail. It does shows how the serial number and linkage block provides the spot for stock linkage components to be mounted and then integrated with the new AoK linkages. That is critical for the earlier cars and trucks. You will notice for this version we are using the outside "wings"  for  linkage mounts.
    For newer cars where we want the linkage rail mounted on the inside, there are inside  "wings"  that are drilled and the rail is then on the inside wings. The outside block will then just be the serial number plate. Early cars and trucks are different in that they are on the outboard side of the intake, but they also have different connection points for the carbs to the common rail  as compared to later model cars..
    George has the linkage working perfectly for the several different applications.  If you are going to be using this on the truck or older car you would just use your stock brackets and the AoK linkage will just integrate with it, to give you the desired upgrade from the single to dual carbs. Oh yes, and hot debate on the name.. Our original intent was to have the writing read from the passenger side although you may notice it was reversed to be read from the other side.  In the production version, we have got the writing of "AoK George Asche Jr Ltd Ed" turned around and in a different font than the prototype.
    There were a couple of minor changes to the prototype, including making the outboard linkage mounting block slightly bigger, changing the name and a couple of internal items.   Today the 1st batch of production intakes are being poured. That process will continue for the balance of the week, they are heat treated and shipped to us.  We need to have the casted intakes machined, tapped and threaded which should see the 1st intakes ready to ship in the next 4-6 weeks.
    * Dec 3rd note: That casting turned out to be 1 being cast with the slight change talked about above. That one was heat treated and shipped to us. We called back and said why did you just ship us only 1.  The reply, they wanted to be really sure it was correct. They were given the go to cast a production run and more of our Big Block Triples which have been sold out for months. They have no been all cast and are off for heat treating on Monday.
     
    The intake has been a long time coming, even more so given the prototype was completed almost a year and a half ago.
    Now -   down to the brass tacks as my Grandfather would have said -   Cost !

    Feb 8 2017
    Were committed to the pricing for the 1st shipment as we feel customers have waited a long time patiently for the product and that was our original    We will be  repricing them upwards slightly as the development cost and the casting price has escalated well beyond where the estimates were when we started. Just the casting price is up 73%  which is an increase in the price of the aluminum.

    For linkage, if customers want us to make them linkage, it will start at $150 and really depends on what linkage is required.   By that I mean if a customer needs linkage for a 1933 Desoto, and if they don't have the linkage block tab, we can get that piece and will sell it at our cost, but it is a relatively expensive part.  If the customer has theirs and most do, then we will clean theirs up and paint it for them at no extra cost. If its linkage for a  1946-48 Plymouth, then it is very straight forward.

    Built carter ball and ball carbs are  $195.00 each and  the will be Siamese twins, meaning they will be exactly the same in their venture, throttle bore sizing and jetting, with all new kits in them and if a customer buys the entire package, George will mount the carbs, linkage, adjust everything and the customer wont have to pay anything extra for that or the carb gaskets.  * Note if you already ordered your intake with carbs, the price quoted you is still in effect, even though the cost of full rebuild kits just went up significantly.


    Shipping is extra and is at cost, or the customer can use their shipping preference  and if they have an account utilize that.  We don't charge for packing or handling.


    Our address is   George Asche/Tim Kingsbury 1693 fertigs Road,  Fertigs, PA 16364     

    I can be reached directly at Fargopickupking@yahoo.com  and we will accept
    paypal if it is send via family and friends so were not paying the paypal fee as there
    is literally no margin on these 1st batch of intakes.  We will also accept a cheque,  money order or if your
    driving by,  cash!
     
    A few notes:
    1) We will also be receiving a small number of the AoK triple intakes for the Canadian 25 1/2" big blocks. They have been sold out for over a year now so if you were looking for one of those we  will be able to ship finished triples by year end.  .
    2)  Headers made from OEM exhaust manifolds are available for both the USA small blocks and the Canadian big blocks. The last picture is  from my 1949 Plymouth Business coupe which has a Canadian 265 ci motor in it and the AoK Triple. Its the same basic look for either the 23 1/2" small block or 25 1/2" big blocks.
    3)  We now have a source for reproduction GMC (not the Chevy versions with major air restrictions).  You can get replacement air filters for them and they are available in Chrome tops or  Black. The Black versions are $125.00 and Chrome ones are $138.00. You can  see them here in a video posted by Fred Buhay.
    4) The Big Note to be aware of:  We expect to be able to ship finished intakes early next week, but there is not some big pile of built carbs or linkage sets made up and ready to ship and George hand makes every piece of linkage and rebuilds every carb completely from top to bottom.   So if your looking for linkage or carbs or both, on top of an intake, get your order in early as I expect to see a big back log in short order.  To date we have note taken orders or money, but have put people on a waiting list.  Everyone on that waiting list were alerted 48 hours ago and right now 1/2 of the 1st production run has been spoken for.   There is no fear that we will be unable to get people intakes, but the question of when we can supply is potentially a question.
    Finally if you would like us to call you and answer questions about either intake, we are happy to. Just drop me an email to fargopickupking@yahoo.com  with your phone number and when is a good time to contact you and George or I will give you a call.
     
     
     
     
     
     
     

     






     
    below is the AoK triple on my 1949 Plymouth Business Coupe.

  19. Like
    timkingsbury got a reaction from desoto for a blog entry, AoK George Asche Jr Ltd Edition Intake - now available!   
    Finally the AoK George Asche Jr Ltd Edition Intake for the all  23 1/2" USA flathead Mopar engines has been completed and is in production.
    The pictures below has prototype linkage for the 1933-1938 Cars and all trucks and power wagons.
    You may notice that the left carb linkage bar has been cut short, and is not hooked to the left carb. That is strictly for prototype purposes and the production versions have a longer bar  That allows for a linkage bar to come down from each carb to the common rail. It does shows how the serial number and linkage block provides the spot for stock linkage components to be mounted and then integrated with the new AoK linkages. That is critical for the earlier cars and trucks. You will notice for this version we are using the outside "wings"  for  linkage mounts.
    For newer cars where we want the linkage rail mounted on the inside, there are inside  "wings"  that are drilled and the rail is then on the inside wings. The outside block will then just be the serial number plate. Early cars and trucks are different in that they are on the outboard side of the intake, but they also have different connection points for the carbs to the common rail  as compared to later model cars..
    George has the linkage working perfectly for the several different applications.  If you are going to be using this on the truck or older car you would just use your stock brackets and the AoK linkage will just integrate with it, to give you the desired upgrade from the single to dual carbs. Oh yes, and hot debate on the name.. Our original intent was to have the writing read from the passenger side although you may notice it was reversed to be read from the other side.  In the production version, we have got the writing of "AoK George Asche Jr Ltd Ed" turned around and in a different font than the prototype.
    There were a couple of minor changes to the prototype, including making the outboard linkage mounting block slightly bigger, changing the name and a couple of internal items.   Today the 1st batch of production intakes are being poured. That process will continue for the balance of the week, they are heat treated and shipped to us.  We need to have the casted intakes machined, tapped and threaded which should see the 1st intakes ready to ship in the next 4-6 weeks.
    * Dec 3rd note: That casting turned out to be 1 being cast with the slight change talked about above. That one was heat treated and shipped to us. We called back and said why did you just ship us only 1.  The reply, they wanted to be really sure it was correct. They were given the go to cast a production run and more of our Big Block Triples which have been sold out for months. They have no been all cast and are off for heat treating on Monday.
     
    The intake has been a long time coming, even more so given the prototype was completed almost a year and a half ago.
    Now -   down to the brass tacks as my Grandfather would have said -   Cost !

    Feb 8 2017
    Were committed to the pricing for the 1st shipment as we feel customers have waited a long time patiently for the product and that was our original    We will be  repricing them upwards slightly as the development cost and the casting price has escalated well beyond where the estimates were when we started. Just the casting price is up 73%  which is an increase in the price of the aluminum.

    For linkage, if customers want us to make them linkage, it will start at $150 and really depends on what linkage is required.   By that I mean if a customer needs linkage for a 1933 Desoto, and if they don't have the linkage block tab, we can get that piece and will sell it at our cost, but it is a relatively expensive part.  If the customer has theirs and most do, then we will clean theirs up and paint it for them at no extra cost. If its linkage for a  1946-48 Plymouth, then it is very straight forward.

    Built carter ball and ball carbs are  $195.00 each and  the will be Siamese twins, meaning they will be exactly the same in their venture, throttle bore sizing and jetting, with all new kits in them and if a customer buys the entire package, George will mount the carbs, linkage, adjust everything and the customer wont have to pay anything extra for that or the carb gaskets.  * Note if you already ordered your intake with carbs, the price quoted you is still in effect, even though the cost of full rebuild kits just went up significantly.


    Shipping is extra and is at cost, or the customer can use their shipping preference  and if they have an account utilize that.  We don't charge for packing or handling.


    Our address is   George Asche/Tim Kingsbury 1693 fertigs Road,  Fertigs, PA 16364     

    I can be reached directly at Fargopickupking@yahoo.com  and we will accept
    paypal if it is send via family and friends so were not paying the paypal fee as there
    is literally no margin on these 1st batch of intakes.  We will also accept a cheque,  money order or if your
    driving by,  cash!
     
    A few notes:
    1) We will also be receiving a small number of the AoK triple intakes for the Canadian 25 1/2" big blocks. They have been sold out for over a year now so if you were looking for one of those we  will be able to ship finished triples by year end.  .
    2)  Headers made from OEM exhaust manifolds are available for both the USA small blocks and the Canadian big blocks. The last picture is  from my 1949 Plymouth Business coupe which has a Canadian 265 ci motor in it and the AoK Triple. Its the same basic look for either the 23 1/2" small block or 25 1/2" big blocks.
    3)  We now have a source for reproduction GMC (not the Chevy versions with major air restrictions).  You can get replacement air filters for them and they are available in Chrome tops or  Black. The Black versions are $125.00 and Chrome ones are $138.00. You can  see them here in a video posted by Fred Buhay.
    4) The Big Note to be aware of:  We expect to be able to ship finished intakes early next week, but there is not some big pile of built carbs or linkage sets made up and ready to ship and George hand makes every piece of linkage and rebuilds every carb completely from top to bottom.   So if your looking for linkage or carbs or both, on top of an intake, get your order in early as I expect to see a big back log in short order.  To date we have note taken orders or money, but have put people on a waiting list.  Everyone on that waiting list were alerted 48 hours ago and right now 1/2 of the 1st production run has been spoken for.   There is no fear that we will be unable to get people intakes, but the question of when we can supply is potentially a question.
    Finally if you would like us to call you and answer questions about either intake, we are happy to. Just drop me an email to fargopickupking@yahoo.com  with your phone number and when is a good time to contact you and George or I will give you a call.
     
     
     
     
     
     
     

     






     
    below is the AoK triple on my 1949 Plymouth Business Coupe.

  20. Like
    timkingsbury got a reaction from Plymouth#43 for a blog entry, AoK intakes.. Shipping and going going going.. gone   
    Howdy Folks -
    Well the good news is  the new AoK dual carb intakes for the 23 1/2" USA small block flathead Mopars  started going out the door last week.  As well  the AoK triples for the 25 1/2" Canadian Big block flathead Mopars that have been sold out for over a year are also available and  shipping.
     
    More details and what the look like on this blog entry.
    The good and bad news..     Good:    If your on the list for either a dual intake or a triple your covered.    Your intake and if you want linkage,  we will be able to supply them                      
     at the price point discussed.   Bad: well Maybe Bad: If you haven't ordered an AoK dual intake there are 7 left not spoken for and there are 2 AoK triples for the big blocks not spoken for.
    After that, there will be no more at this price point  that is for sure and whether we  have any more made with depend on customer demand.
     
    As well we are now out of Carter Ball and Ball cores to build,  so if you  need George to build you up carbs, as of right now you will need to supply cores.
     
    Final piece of news is that if you order intakes, when paid for they can be shipped in less than a week. If you need linkage as well its up to 3 weeks lead time right now to ship and if you need carbs and haven't already ordered intakes and specified carbs, even with cores the lead time right now is at least 3 months and may be longer..
     
    The super thing is George who just turned 85 is still doing them and is the best there is at doing them. The unfortunate part is George is slowing down and no one anticipated the new AoK intakes taking so long and the overwhelming demand for them and carbs when they were ready.
     
    Now that they are coming out of the machine shop all completed, the shear number is overwhelming so it will take some time ..
     
    George also has 4 Performance engine jobs promised and as of today will not be accepting any further engine rebuilds until further notice.     On r6, r7 r10 Mopar overdrives, we will have to see what George has time for, and what his Sons and I can help out with on that front to be able to give anyone a leadtime.
    As I and many call him, the Flathead Mopar Living Legend  is still going strong, but his ability to work on customer projects outside of the family, will now be very much slowed down.
    I am sure that is not a major surprise to anyone .
     
    Tim Kingsbury
    fargopickupking@yahoo,com
     
     
     
     
     
     
  21. Like
    timkingsbury got a reaction from 51custom for a blog entry, Single Carb Intake, Dual Carb Intake, Triple Carb Intake, why not more ?   
    ·        
    ·       For Decades I have listened to people talk about Flathead Mopar 6 Cylinder Engines in terms of intakes, what is the best carb configuration for their particular situation.   
     
    Discussions on putting two carbs and those who claim to be sure that is too much carburation or that it will use to much fuel. Then every once in a while the discussion of 3 carbs comes up, and that almost always sparks the debate on how it would take a race motor to need it, or how the engine will bog, or run poorly.   In the last 20 years with a good friend of the AoK boys coming across a huge stash of 2 barrel carter weber carbs which were designed for slant six engines, the discussion on utilizing a 2 barrel instead of two singles comes up.
     
    I just smile, but then I know that when the stash of 2 barrel carter webers were found, its finder  put them on his website as a carb for a flathead mopar.  Its amazing how a market can be created and how quickly – “this is the way to go” spreads like rapid fire, without as much as any background check into something.
     
    But 1st, let me go back to the 1st time I heard the discussion on multiple carbs vs a single multi-barrel carb, or  put another way, comparing that “old technology carter ball and ball vs a modern 4 barrel carb”..
     
    It was about 45 Years ago, when I 1st  heard someone in a conversation with my Grandfather and my Dad, suggesting they knew a lot about Flathead Mopars and were  sporting a 4 barrel carb on a homemade intake.
    This gentleman had played with flathead Ford v8s and had came across a Dodge 2 door sedan from the mid-50s.  He was suggesting he had built the ultimate flathead Chrysler Engine and he was one of those guys that whatever he had at the moment was just the best and the only way to go. 
    Well after my Dad explained he had far from the ultimate flathead Chrysler, and that his wife’s daily driver (my Mom) was good enough to kick his ass, Dad pulled out my Mom's pickup.  It was sporting a bored out 265, with a cam, a factory dual intake and exhaust with a pair of carter ball and balls, and an a833 4 speed tranny.  After a little bit of fun that really wasn't much of a contest, licking his wounds sort of speak, Mr "Ultimate Flathead Chrysler" started down the road of excuses when Grandfather shook his head and cut him off at the pass.
     
     Grandfather like my Dad were automotive Engineers, and Grandfather literally knew more about Chrysler Flatheads than any person alive. Given he saw the very 1st flathead roll of the line in Windsor, Ontario Canada in 1935 and saw the last block cast in 1959, he had some pretty good credentials to give a lecture.
    What is explained in a few minutes was not only how the flathead engine worked, but why the engine this gentleman had came with only 1 carb failed to perform.
    Most think that 1 carb was put on the engine and that it has sufficient carburation for the engine, and if it needed more, Chrysler Engineers would have put more on.
     
    On a basic level that is true, but what engineering was building was an engine to a specific HP, torque  and fuel consumption target and not to get the most out of the engine, make it as efficient as possible or even have it run to anything close to 100% optimum performance. 
    By Optimum  performance I am not talking maximum  hp or maximum rpm or optimum fuel mileage on a vehicle.
     
    Grandfather then explained that in fact when Chrysler was faced with the need to meet a 5 ton truck specification for dump/plow trucks asked for by Canadian Municipalities during the winter of 1950, that the requirement  had  filtered to engineering in late 1950. They  developed the 265 ci motor which was 3 7/16" bore and 4 3/4" stroke and have dual carbs and dual exhaust on them, which was what was in Mom’s pickup.
     Few realize that that engine actually had more hp than any other engine on the market.  I will attach the picture of the poster that was on Grandfathers office at the time.  I gave it to George Asche Jr years ago.   In any case you can see the hot v8 mopar had in 1952 was 133 hp and the flathead 6 had more hp. As an aside Grandfather with the cam grind out of the 1952 Chrysler that engine exceeded 150 hp at the time, but given the time, energy and money that have been invested in the new Hemi v8 that was never going to see the light of day on any marketing information.
    That engine and the fact it had a factory intake, immediately became a stock car favorite in the 1952 season, when Mopar dominated stock car racing everywhere it landed.
    In any case Chrysler didn't just put on a second carb on it because they needed more carburation.  By then Chrysler already had Carter building Ball and Ball carbs from 85cfm -  425 cfm each and we now know they had a 625 cfm carter ball and ball single barrel carb if they needed it.
    The reason for two was the basic issue, some would call flaw, but Grandfather  would call basic restriction to taking the engine to the next level.  I say that folding back to the earlier point that Chrysler was building engine to a spec of "x" hp, "y" torque and "z" fuel consumption.
     
    The flathead 6 build by Chrysler has 3 Siamese intake ports,  each of which feed two cylinders.  Setting aside the exhaust for a second, and keeping in mind that an engine is really just a giant vacuum pump, putting 1 carb in the middle of the block, basically over the middle intake port feeding cylinders 3 and 4, means that if all cylinders are the same in compression ratio and ability to create vacuum and suck in a fuel mixture coming from the carb, then cylinder 3 and 4 are going to get more fuel than the intake ports feeding cylinders 1 and 2   or 5 and 6.   Yes Chrysler made intake modifications to help that, but they again were not trying to make the perfect engine, just have it meet specs required.
    As  a little aside if your look at intakes from the 1930s through to the 50s you will notice Chrysler Engineers raised the level of the carb. With the Dual Carb truck intake it also was raised further with governors placed under the carbs.   The height of the carb mounting above the intake posts can easily be seen to rise from the 1930s to the 1950s. 
    Its also why if your look at some of the aftermarket dual intakes made in the 30s and compare them to say the 3rd generation Edmunds in the 50s you will notice a huge difference in height. The raising of the carbs and providing a smoother run from carb to the intake ports saw huge benefits in performance. Of course maybe buried in the story is the fact that early intake was designed for a marine application where quick rev was far more the desired trait than was torque.   When the intake was moved to an automotive application you would find a quick rev with the clutch engaged, but disengaged there is a significant loss in torque and it will actually burn more fuel than a single carb.
     
    But back to my story, if we now add the exhaust component into your stock Mopar flathead (or L-head)  which depending on what year engine and what vehicle,  has the single exhaust exiting at one of a few  different locations. For this discussion lets  say it exits at the back as does the post ww2 cars.     What you find is as the cylinders push out exhaust there is almost no restriction or back pressure at cylinders 5 and 6,  but there is a great deal of back pressure at cylinders 1 and 2.   
     
    So here we have the most back pressure making it tough to push away the exhaust and actually the front intake port receiving the least amount of fuel. 
    While the engine meets specs with no problem, its clear that if you can balance the exhaust, by having 3 exhaust cylinders exit through 1 exhaust pipe and the other three through a 2nd pipe, you can better balance the exhaust back pressure.  We sort of glossed over the fact that while there are only 3 intake ports, each cylinder does have its own exhaust port.   Something that changed with the introduction of the slant 6, which had  6 equal intake runners each feeding a cylinder.
     
    Back to the flathead,  if we can better distribute fuel to balance the opportunity for each of the 3 Siamese ports to get fuel, then the engine will run more efficiently.   
    So if you were to take a big block 25 1/2" engine, and anyone of them, not just the 265 and put the factory dual carb and dual exhaust setup on it and then put on the appropriate carter ball and ball carb on it, it will gain hp, torque and improved fuel mileage.  The reason is it runs more efficient.  The same takes place with the 23 1/2" USA small block which has the same intake and exhaust configuration, although slightly smaller ports.
     
    If you take it one step further,  putting 1 carb on top of each intake port,  you can provide the optimum amount of fuel efficiency for the engine.
    Back to our 4 barrel friend,  putting on a large carb  just  provides a further opportunity to over fuel the center siamese intake port.  When he hammered the throttle it was actually not able to burn all of the fuel in the middle two cylinders and was “bogging” ,until it could gain enough RPM to use some of the fuel.   
    When he was running against Mom’s pickup which had more balanced back pressure, and a better distribution of fuel he had no chance even if the engines were internally the same. Of course they weren't but that is another story. 
    Years later when we created the AoK triple intake, we placed the first intake on  an almost rock stock 201 ci motor.  It had been rebuilt stock, although required to be bored out 10 thou to clean up cylinders. Beyond that it was a stock cam, intakes etc.  With 3 of the smallest CFM carter ball and ball carbs on board and headers made from a stock exhaust systems, the car ran smoother, had better acceleration and  got 6 miles per gallon better highway mileage over the single carb and single exhaust.    In the end, it is just a myth that you need some bored out, cammed up engine for 2 carbs and a full race motor for 3 carbs.
    The reason why Chrysler didn't run 3 carbs was simple. 1) The cost of 3 carbs was no inconsequential  2) They could meet the HP, Torque and Fuel useage targets with 1 carb.  The exception was when there was a time window where the dual carb, dual exhaust 265 ci motor was released, but with overhead valve v8s and Hemi's coming shortly after the multiple carb flathead life-cycle was short lived.
     
    There is a bit more it than that. I have glossed over a bunch of the engineering parts of why you don't just put a carb directly to each intake port with no equalization tube, but I am sure you get the drift.
    Unlike a v8 where you might try and make carbs progressive because your feeding a intake plenum that equally or close to equally feeding all 8 cylinders, the flathead engine has 3 intake ports each feeding 2 cylinders so progressive carbs just are not effective.  On the flathead Mopar, with either 2 or 3 carbs you want them to produce the exact same fuel to feed each of the Siamese ports exactly the same. Its not progressive in terms of additional barrels or carbs, its progressive by pushing on the gas peddle.
     
     The key is making sure both or all three carbs are identical and that you have linkage that operates all of them exactly the same. 
     
    Its a common misconception that they must be hard to keep synced. We have engines with tens of thousands of miles on them with multiple carbs and are never adjusted.  George Asche's 1929 Desoto that he has owned since 1950 likely has an unbelievable amount of miles on it and likely the  carbs were only touched when George has redone the engine.  I own vehicles with 100,000 + miles on them and the linkage for the dual carbs has never touched. That has a lot to do with just how good Carter Ball and Ball carbs are.. 
    We also get asked  quite often about modifying the block to provide 6 intake ports, or using webers or other carbs, or running fuel injection.   Dad and Grandfather with too much time on their hands, as my Mother would say,  did modify a couple of engines to provide 6 intake ports. There were several  intakes made including one with an 18" runner set on it, one with 6 side draft webers and one with modified hilborn fuel injection.
    At the end of the day, with various levels of success, nothing seems to outperform an Edmunds triple carb intake with riser blocks and 3 matched 1952-56 Truck carbs on them and maybe with some jetting changes.   Of course, since then we have developed a couple of new cam profiles and of course the AoK  triple which utilizes better and modern casting technology, as well as better flow bench testing and computer modelling that neither Chrysler or Eddy Edmunds had.    Have we thought about digging out the 6 intake port block that is still in Dad's shop, well yah we have, but that is another project and a blog entry for another time.
     
     


  22. Like
    timkingsbury got a reaction from Uncle-Pekka for a blog entry, The Grand Master Turns 85 today !   
    February 6 1932   my good friend and second Dad, the Grand Master of Flathead Mopars -  George Asche was born.     Yesterday was his surprise Birthday Party and today
    is George's 85th Birthday!     The picture below  is rumored to be when George Graduated High School, but I think really that should be a diploma of future Flathead Chrysler, Desoto, Plymouth, Dodge/Fargo's mastery !    In the background is his Dad's Dodge truck which George still owns today!
     
    Happy Birthday George!
     
    Oh and if your wondering what George was up to for Birthday. Well  -  Lunch with his Boys at the shop (George III,  Rob and Tim), then building some carbs up, then over to the machine shop for some consulting as the AoK dual carb intakes were rolling through 7 different station.   The picture of  George with the prototype and the very first one to be completed which of course is his birthday present.. lol   A few pictures of the Dual  Carb (23 1/2" USA small block) and Triple Carb (25 1/2" Canadian  Big Block) intakes going through  the steps,  and being test fitted on blocks setup with exhausts so that every intake has been checked for a perfect fit.
     
    Then it was off for Supper in Knox (Horse Thief Capital of the World) and  back to George's shop and setting up tomorrows trip, which is believe it or not, were heading down to pick up George's Uncle Harry Hiens -  #90 who is in the Nascar  Hall of Fame. Harry lives in Mars PA.  Were bringing him up to check out the AoK intakes and take George's newest 1929 Desoto  for a ride!
     














  23. Like
    timkingsbury got a reaction from Plymouth#43 for a blog entry, AoK intakes.. Shipping and going going going.. gone   
    Howdy Folks -
    Well the good news is  the new AoK dual carb intakes for the 23 1/2" USA small block flathead Mopars  started going out the door last week.  As well  the AoK triples for the 25 1/2" Canadian Big block flathead Mopars that have been sold out for over a year are also available and  shipping.
     
    More details and what the look like on this blog entry.
    The good and bad news..     Good:    If your on the list for either a dual intake or a triple your covered.    Your intake and if you want linkage,  we will be able to supply them                      
     at the price point discussed.   Bad: well Maybe Bad: If you haven't ordered an AoK dual intake there are 7 left not spoken for and there are 2 AoK triples for the big blocks not spoken for.
    After that, there will be no more at this price point  that is for sure and whether we  have any more made with depend on customer demand.
     
    As well we are now out of Carter Ball and Ball cores to build,  so if you  need George to build you up carbs, as of right now you will need to supply cores.
     
    Final piece of news is that if you order intakes, when paid for they can be shipped in less than a week. If you need linkage as well its up to 3 weeks lead time right now to ship and if you need carbs and haven't already ordered intakes and specified carbs, even with cores the lead time right now is at least 3 months and may be longer..
     
    The super thing is George who just turned 85 is still doing them and is the best there is at doing them. The unfortunate part is George is slowing down and no one anticipated the new AoK intakes taking so long and the overwhelming demand for them and carbs when they were ready.
     
    Now that they are coming out of the machine shop all completed, the shear number is overwhelming so it will take some time ..
     
    George also has 4 Performance engine jobs promised and as of today will not be accepting any further engine rebuilds until further notice.     On r6, r7 r10 Mopar overdrives, we will have to see what George has time for, and what his Sons and I can help out with on that front to be able to give anyone a leadtime.
    As I and many call him, the Flathead Mopar Living Legend  is still going strong, but his ability to work on customer projects outside of the family, will now be very much slowed down.
    I am sure that is not a major surprise to anyone .
     
    Tim Kingsbury
    fargopickupking@yahoo,com
     
     
     
     
     
     
  24. Like
    timkingsbury got a reaction from oldasdirt for a blog entry, Updated to the - Hatfield and McCoys Mopar Edition ?? Lol.. Nah.. Asche and Kingsburys - AoK   
    In reply to the request.. here is "the truck" and the Trip to Saskatewan.. It is a 1952 Fargo and the reason I attached the combine in the grainry... its a 1955 Massey Harris, and you guess it ... it has a 265 chrylser flathead in it.
    The picture of Dad beside the fargo out in Saskatewan was taken as he looked at it and he had no idea, that I would eventually purchase it, bring it back and give it to him for his birthday in Feb 2002. The picture of me with the truck tucked in the garage, is polishing the truck. yes that is the original paint, complete with original factory pinstripes still on the truck. In fact the polish job was 1/2 the restoration. Lol
    the second 1/2 was changing the oils, plugs and gas in the tank and greasing it..
    The one thing the Kingsbury's seemed to do is take pictures. Going back to tin type pictures I think we have 7 generations of pictures and some how there seems to be a lot with Mopars.. Lol.. I cant imagine how that happens.
  25. Like
    timkingsbury got a reaction from oldasdirt for a blog entry, Hatfield and McCoys Mopar Edition ?? Lol.. Nah.. Asche and Kingsburys - AoK   
    Well lots have asked about AoK where that came from, and what is the story behind the Asche and Kingsbury's and to be honest it really isnt as complex as some may think. The Asche thread dates back into 40's and 50's when many members of this branch of AoK were busy driving mopars. George's Dad was a Dodge and Chrysler man, as was his Uncle Harry Hines (who is still alive today). George worked as a mechanic at various garages, as well as started helping his uncle with his stock car. As time passed George became the crew chief for the legandary #90 car, as "Uncle Harry" dazzled the tracks in PA winning race after race with his flathead Mopars. I will do a blog on Harry sometime, and maybe do an interview of him for the blog. Harry was inducted into the Nascar hall of fame a few years back and a big reason for that was his nephew and crew chief George Asche Jr. George purchased his 1929 Desoto in the early 50's and wasn't long before he had built a race 265 ci chrysler motor for it. Complete with Edmunds head, Edmunds triple carb intake, a custom cam and oh yes, bored 125 thou !
    He rolled on to Daytona beach in I think it was 1955 where they still had the legendary "flying mile" drag race right on the beach. George had a hard time actually getting them to take his 29 desoto with a 6 cylinder serious, but he eventually talked his way into an entry spot by challenging one of the favourites. Well it didnt take long before they went from not taking George serious, to the challengers lined up as George won race heat after race heat. By the end of the Meet, George's Desoto was the only undefeated car, topping out with a mind blowing 142 mph pass. The cool thing is well, the 1929 desoto is still in George's possession and I will attach a couple of pictures. Most notorious was George daring my Dad Eddy to get in the back of the rumble seat for a quick pass. Dad jumped in and it was game on.
    On the Kingsbury side, my grandfather was a Chrysler man involved in some wild stuff including a highly modified Henderson Motorcycle equipped with a Plymouth 6 cyclinder motor. No I am not kidding, but that is too as story for another time. My Father Eddy naturally became a Mopar guy, and his 1st car was a 1941 plymouth business coupe. He apprenticed with Mopar dealership in Georgetown Ontario, where he spent his spare time working on first stock cars and later dragsters and eventually top fuel cars. The owner of the dealer, said to him his talent exceeded what the dealership needed and he sponsored him back to school where he would eventually get his automotive engineering papers. It would be cool if the Kingsbury's and Asche's had met up at some track running head to head, feuding like some modern day Hatfield and McCoy's, but unfortunately that never happened.
    That meeting would actually take place much later. My Dad and I had went on a quest to Western Canada in search of his Grandfather's (on his mothers side) homestead in Saskatewan. He has been out and tried to find it many times with no success. So he and I flew out to Winnipeg (also knicknamed Winter-peg) and made the trek to a small town called Bulyea Saskatchewan. I said well lets hit two spots - the local bar and the local post office. The long story short, the post master in the town, lived dead across the road from what turned out to be his grandfathers. On the big piece of property there was only a grainery and barn left standing, while the rest of the 800 acres was used for cash cropping wheat !
    Inside that barn was a 1952 Fargo grain truck. A truck which later on I would purchase and surprise my Dad with a birthday present. The truck wasnt his grandfathers. His grandfather homesteaded their in the later 1800's, and when he retired he moved to Ontario and settled on a farm, right across the road from the Kingsbury homestead which was setlled in 1795 and I still live there. But the grandson of the gentleman who bought the farm from my great grandfather had purchased the fargo brand new, and when he retired from farming in 1989 that truck had only went 14,250 miles. Its entire life was hauling grain from the farm over to elevator #1 in Bulyea.
    The 1952 fargo while was only 1 of about 50 Fargo and Dodge trucks in the Kingsbury Collection,was the apple in my fathers Eye because he got it for his birthday from his son and Grandson Daniel.
    One of the things we immediately started to look for was a factory dual carb and dual exhaust setup for the truck. While it really didnt come with it from the factory, the truck cried out to have one.. lol.
    So in that quest I found myself at the All Chrysler Nationals In Carlisle PA looking for among other things, a dual carb and dual intake setup. It was the 3rd time I had been there to the Meca of all Car shows (yes another topic).. and as I turned up row E, in then spot 5 and 6, there was George and his good friend and Model T enthusiast Bob Wearham . In fact I took a picture before I left and I have attached it here. For those who have visited George.... maybe you can guess what year this was !
    In any case that is where the Kingsbury's met the Asche's.. Row E at the All Chrysler Nationals or as I often call it ChryslerCarlisle.
    The touching piece of that story was later on, George gifted a factory orignal dual carb intake and exhaust that he has restored to my Dad. From that point forward, well there has been a lot of things happen, a lot of projects, and a lot of great fun and fellowship.
    We were looking for a team name and George came up with the name AoK which stands for Asche over Kingsbury and lets face it KoA was already taken by someone.. rofl and didnt sound near as good as AoK. For a number of years you would see on Row E George and Eddy, side by side solving the worlds problems and trading war stories as I call them. The PA Dodge Motor home also referred as the Southern Mopar Nut crib and beside it the Ontario Dodge Motor home, also referred as the Northern Mopar Nut crib. Now having said that, it seems there was been Southern Mopar Nuts (Asche's) hanging in or sleeping in the Northern Mopar Nuts (Kingsbury's) crib, or visaversa on many occasion. Just like while it was the Asche's that introduced us to Smth's slab bacon, it is now quite often that the Kingsbury's are hauling it down to the Asche's as the factory store is in Erie Pa and on our way from the Kingsbury's homestead to the Asche's homestead.
    So there folks is the story and honestly that is the short version.
    Tim
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