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timkingsbury

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Posts posted by timkingsbury

  1. 17 hours ago, NoGoFargo said:

    Thanks Tim for the very helpful information. 
     

    I’ll post some pics of the number under the water pump gasket. 
    I’m thinking it’s a number put there by the rebuilder possibly for warranty purposes? 
     

    If you could get more information on that head number it would be much appreciated. 
     

    Im not going to open up this engine as it has good compression and everything looks to be in good condition with a bore scope but I could pull the head off of my parts engine with the same head number once I’m back in Ontario from BC. 
     

    I haven’t had the oil pan off yet but that will likely happen before the engine goes back in the truck because it’s center sump and from my research the trucks are supposed to be rear sump. 
    I don’t know how it even fit in the truck without front axle interference.  
     

    The Bombardier engine is seized so I can’t do the brass plug over #6 test. 
     

    I’ll be doing the #6 plug test on the D49 when I’m home in the spring. 
     

    It appears the PO got a flat tire on the driver side rear and didn’t know about left hand thread and after days and days of trying to get the tire off gave up on the truck back in the early 90’s. He then got the Bombardier with a blown/seized engine and started the swap for the truck motor then somehow he broke the mounting flange off of the only carb he had so he gave up and started swapping in a Nissan engine. 
     

    I got the truck on trade for finishing the Nissan engine swap. Well worth the 10 hrs of work :)

    Sorry for getting off topic. 
     

    I’d also be interested in knowing about the cams that Kevin asked about. 
     

    Thanks 

    C1FFDA6B-4C55-4C56-97CF-DBE6687FE69D.jpeg

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    The number under the water pump means nothing concerning size of the engine, that is for sure.

     

    The head, as I said,  same part number over several years.    Without seeing the underside your not going to get any further information,  sorry.

     

    The bombardier  well  your could remove the pan and check the part number on the crank and rods. Beyond that its just speculation on what it is.   What was originally in a late 50s bombardier was a 265, but there were 251s in smaller ones and I have seen many times when we have pulled the engine it turned out to have come from a car or truck, so  based on what your telling me only a part number is going to help us.

     

    On the sum and pan,  you can change the pickups and pans to have back, front or center pickups. the pans are interchangeable  depending on the application. You  just need to remember to also change the pickup if you change the pan.

    Tim

    massey combine industrial  open chamber head.jpg

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    • Like 2
  2. 20 hours ago, 47 dodge 1.5 ton said:

    Tim, I have seen several suggest the cams are made to a different spec on industrial engines. Do you know what the differences are by chance? I compared the lift and duration on a ‘59 265ind vrs a ‘48 237 and both appear the same? I did not check centerline. The reason Im asking, planning to use the IND cam for a regrind. Thank you, Kevin 

    There are over 60 cam patterns for industrial engines.    It all depends on what horsepower  was required and for a 265 that ranged from 80hp to 120hp, what rpm the engine is going, and what the gallons per 8 hour shift target is.  An industrial engine typically can be a low as an operating rpm of 1450  rpm.   a  lot little higher in the 1800 rpm and rarely is anything over 2400 rpm.  It is not just the cam, they will also use a lower compression head often times.     In your case a 1959 industrial 265 tell me it more likely is in a combine, swather, harvester, tow motor or airplane tug.   By 1959 the 251 industrial out sold the 265.   Your 1948  238 ci motor would be likely from a truck and the lift would be the same as most of the 1959 265 engines, although the duration will be less. You will also find the head of the industrial is less compression than the 1948   238 motor.

    • Like 1
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  3. On 1/14/2022 at 12:24 AM, NoGoFargo said:

    I have a 25” flathead 6 that came out of my 53 Fargo. It’s not the original and there are several things that I haven’t been able to find any information on. 
    Background information:

    Block number near the head is D49 2 6871 C and looks like it was stamped by hand. 
    Under the water pump gasket it’s stamped 269612. I’ve never seen or heard of a number stamped there?

    Number cast into block under distributor L 18 3

    Crank bearing cap number 665672 and what looks  like 12 stamped sideways on the cap


    Head number is 1327337 with D 21 2 above and a 9 stamped behind the coil bracket

     

    Distributor number is 1688674 or 14

    Is there a way to tell what size engine this is by the crank bearing cap number?

     

    Has anyone seen a number stamped under the water pump gasket? It’s upside down just below the head mating surface. 
    I can’t find my block or head date code listed anywhere. 

    This engine has a center sump oil pan. 
     

    I have an industrial engine out of a late 50’s Bombardier sidewalk machine with the same head number But different date code.

     

    Id like to know the actual year of this block and head. 

    1) A D49 is a  1954 dodge car engine serial number

    2)  Under the water pump stamped number  -   do you have a picture ?

    3)  March 18th  1957 the block was cast.  So most likely a replacement block that a dealer or rebuilder both the internals over and stamped the block with the d49 serial number

    4) crank cap number is over several years so not really relevant

    5) Head number also over several years. I could look it up to see if it what it was for.  If it was off the engine a picture of the chamber would be easier for me to tell which year.

    6) distributor number irrelevant.

    7) no , but if you have the pan off the part number is on the crank and rods. That would tell you.

    8-) a late 50s bombardier could be a 250/251 or 265  but see next point

     

    The thing I would do for the bombarder is pull the brass plug over cylinder #6.   put down a small rod, turn the motor over with a bar measuring the distance between top dead center and bottom dead center.

     

    4 1/2" is a 250/251 and 4 3/4"  is a 265 and for your d49  if its 4 1/4" stroke is a 238 ci motor.

     

    Chrysler referred to vehicle version of the 4 1/2" stroke ( 3 7/16" bore ) as a 250  an the industial as a 251.  Same bore and stroke. The reason why is the cams are always different on the industial. The head can be different  (usually lower compression) and the valves can be thicker stemmed sodium cooled which are low rpm valves for engines that are run constantly.

     

    another note: a 250/251 has to be 1946 or newer in anything civilian.    265 has to be  september 1951 or newer.

     

    Tim  Kingsbury

    fargopickupking@yahoo.com

     

    • Thanks 1
  4. I think you will find there are members who have logged in with a username and password, that have not logged in  with an email address for years and 

    now cant log in.  Potentially because they no longer have the original email address they used to sign in.

     

    Best bet to email you at info@p15-d24.com  ?  i know at least two members -  50plymouth being one emailed me saying they couldnt log on and wanted to

    comment on a post on my blog.

     

    Tim

  5. Hi Folks -

     

    After several emails i best weigh in. The factory dual carb , dual exhaust setup for the 25 1/2" motor was unveiled at the 1951  municipal show and was introduced 1st in the 1952 model year with the 1st delivery to Wellington County in Ontario Canada.  Attached was the dealer poster that was sent to them in late November 1951, showing the introduction of both the hemi and the factory dual carb/ dual exhaust setup.  At that time Chrysler Detroit marketing wanted the HP rating of the 265 engine scaled back as the plan was to push the hemi v9 which actually cost less 

    to produce.  The 1st ones were what in Canada we call 4 ton trucks because that is the weight haulage.   By April 1952 they were coming out in 2 1/2 ton and heavier trucks.    It was also the 1st introduction of the 5 speed and 5 speed with overdrive in the bigger trucks.

     

    In 1954 the dual carb setup was optional on the 250 ci motor and in 1956 it was optional on any model truck.  My Grandfather bought a 1956 Fargo pickup with a 265 and factory dual carbs and exhaust and  gave it to my Mother for her 18th birthday   Yes i have the line ticket, internal bill of sale and the truck is still in the family.  It was long ago posted on p15d24.  It was a Chrysler internal bill of sale because he worked as the GM of the Windsor Engine Plant.   The dual carb dual exhaust setup was technically available as a factory option up until 1959 whoever

    it was more often a dealer add on and you could buy the setup from any dealer who sold Dodge or Fargo trucks.

     

    I have the engineering, and shop manuals from 1936 to 1971 and you can clearly see the setup appearing in the 1952 documentation.

    I will attach a marketing poster picture and the Chrysler documentation.

     

    In terms of welding,  between my Dad,  our buddy George Asche (the other part of AoK Racing) and I we have restored more than 50 of the setups including welding up some exhausts or intakes that people would have said that we restorable.   Some of those now have more than 100,000 miles on them and are over 50 years old and never needed another restoration/

     

    Tim

    Tim Kingsbury

     

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    page 8-16 -factory duals for 265.jpg

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  6. Hey guys -   after several messages, I have made it even easier and put up the specifications of the most popular cams we either cut,  or in a the case of a couple, guys are

    just just curious what the cam spec is.    Their all up there, from mild to out of this world wild!   Enjoy!

     

    Tim Kingsbury -  George Asche Jr

    The AoK Boys

  7. On 4/20/2019 at 11:36 AM, keithb7 said:

    This just came in. C54. Meaning? 

     

     

     

     

     

     

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    The Serial Number is for a 1954 Chrysler Windsor which engine was made in the Windsor Ontario Engine Plant and the car came from the Windsor Assembly plant. It was a 265 ci motor when it left the factory .    3 7/16" bore and 4 3/4" stroke   That being said the serial as 55 Fargo point out on another one, was not applied at the factory.  The factory used a jig which held all numbers,  letters and any special character together so when the serial number was applied they were absolutely in a straight line.  This is a restamped block.   1954 was the 1st year the Windsor had a v8 in it, although at least in Canada the 265 was an option.

     

     

    On 4/20/2019 at 12:29 PM, keithb7 said:

    Seller says engine is not seized and will bar over. I think I'll take a few times and go measure the stroke. That will tell me what I need to know I think.

     

    My 1953 265 engine SN starts with C53.

    kwFceEPjZ7aTd3bMHIKD6ZMztbUuqMOS_XsPSJPJ

     

    On 4/20/2019 at 7:17 PM, keithb7 said:

    Well, I measured the stroke. Indeed it was 4 1/2" making it a 250 CI sized engine.

    I looked the rear of the block. There were no oil ports for the engine fed fluid torque drive. So I assume this engine was married up to either a 3 speed manual,  or a sealed fluid drive unit, or maybe even the automatic? I need the engine fed type. I passed on it. Another buyer was right behind me and planned to take it if I passed. Odd though, the black stamped number, left side rear of the block on my car read 1400229-1. The exact same number was stamped on this 250 block.

     

    These Mopar guys, I wish they'd used the same monikers, year over year for the types of drives offered. I am looking at an original sales brochure here from 1953. 

    This is what they said in 1953:

     

    Transmission

    Windsor Standard Transmission, Manual.

    Windsor Deluxe Fluid Matic with hydrauliclly operated transmission. (Is this implying the sealed fluid drive, non actual torque multiplier type?)

    NY'r & NY'r Deluxe: Fluid-Matic Drive, with Hydrauliclly operated transmission. (Is this to implying the fluid drive, non actual torque multiplier type?)

    Custom Imperial & Crown Imperial: Fluid Torque Drive

     

    Then the brochure goes on to say: New Chrysler Torque Converter, with hydraulically operated, controlled type transmission, standard on Custom & Crown Imperial.

    Available on other models at extra cost.

     

    It seems to me my '53 was built with the Fluid Torque Drive. Engine Fed actual torque converter. Factory option. An extra cost option.

    The specs and options on the transmissions are still unclear. What is the difference between Fluid-matic, and Fluid Torque Drive?

     

     

     

    The part number that is cast into the block -1400229-1  was actual a part number used for the 238, 250 and 265 ci engines and was a block number casted from oct 1951 until 1955 actually.   If you looked inside the block you would notice its been carved on the side which allows for the long stroke 265 crank and rods to have clearance. That same carving was

    done in advance of it being known which ci motor it would be.

     

    If you look closer to the oil filler tube, but down by the oil pan you will likely see a Letter (likely a D  and then a number (1 or 2 digets) and then another number (1 or 2 digets) .

    That will allow us to figure out when the block was casted.

     

    You can also look up a little higher and see a clock face cast in the block and a code for what shift it was casted on.    The USA engines are a lot easier to determine the 

    casting date that the later Canadian 25 1/2" engines,  but thats a long story that really doesnt help in this discussion

     

     

    On 4/21/2019 at 11:53 AM, 55 Fargo said:

    Note your stamping not quite straight.

    Factory or a rebuilder stamping on numbers?

    The C54 engine nice straight stamping.

    C54 is not identified as a Chryslsr 6 engine on the T137 registry.

    For some real accurate identification I suggest you PM Bill Watson or Tim Kingsbury. Most on here are only guessing.

     

     

     

    Good eye... 55 Fargo your 100% correct.  while the t137 is an excellent resource it really is, it is not without its gaps and Canadian engines are often part of that gap.

     

    A classic example would be looking at a 1949 Plymouth you will see a p18 shown as a 218.   Without getting into a big debate,  it really was known within Chrysler as a 217. The Canadian 25 1/2" engine was a 218.   However the real point is  I have a 1949 Plymouth that my great aunt bought brand new.  Its a p18 serial number.    It was neither a 217 or 218... In canada they were 228 ci 25 1/2" blocks.   On the t137 site it would show the 1954 chrysler 6 cylinder as c62 and that is correct...    Correct for engines which were shipped to the USA for assembly into a 1954 Chrysler.   For engines that were going to the Canadian assembly plant in Windsor, they were marked c54.    

     

    Hope that helps

    • Like 1
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  8. On 3/27/2019 at 9:20 PM, duesenberg1932 said:

    Hi everyone,

    I’ve been wandering the web looking for information on flathead mopar 6 cylinders, specifically the larger 25” block.  Is there any specific iteration of the 265 that is considered the best as far as durability and making horsepower is concerned?  Im having a bit of a hard time finding specific info on these engines.  Any help or a point in the right direction would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks

    Anything with a date after august 1951 is the best blocks made.    A bypass oil filter does a better job of filtering oil,  but a full flow starting in 1954 model years will see all the oil passed through a filter.  You can drill into a by pass block and put on a full flow on it.    Here its done on a 1949 Canadian Plymouth block, which started its life as a 228 and is now 125 thou over bored 265.   You can run both a bypass and a full flow if you like. There are 265s with either configuratons that you can consider as durable as anything ever made.  All of the Canadian engines after ww2 in the 25 1/2" series are all forged cranks, balanced to 1 gram,  forged pistons (from the factory unless ordered by a secondary manufacturer) and balanced assemblies of crank, rods and pistons.

     

    You will see lots referring to combines and industrial engines.  You can get into engines that are purpose build, maybe with sodium valves and low rev cams.  Often industrial engines have cams to meet a specific hp configuration but also a per hour fuel consumption number will have a specialty cam.    It is the cam which a lot miss and there are a huge catalogue of cams that were ground for the 25 1/2" engines.

     

    The whole topic can be an explosive one and everyone has an opinion. Sadly I find a lot of opinions can be without any experience or expertise behind them.  As I have read your posts you talk durability, but then I see the thread going in the supercharger and other directions.    I will take a slight tangent here to say, that once you move any engine into a turbo or super charger arena,  a cam with a certain number of degrees of separation between when an intake closes and exhausts opens, and visaversa on exhausts closing and intakes opening, become critical if you doing much more than using them as jewelry.  By that I mean if your just putting it on with a tiny boost as many have ok..  In those cases I can get way way more power out of a naturally aspirated engine.   But if your going to start cranking up pressure, you need separation and no stock cam was ever cam with such seperation.

     

    We are happy to provide without charge the specs for at least a couple of cams for superchargers or turbo charges.

     

    After that,  drop me a note any time..  fargopickupking@yahoo.com   and happy to discuss further.

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    • Thanks 1
  9. 8 hours ago, Ajgkirkwood said:

    I seen this stuff before. I know the rods go with the crank, I should have mentioned that. Again I'm  new to this myself however our motors have crazy high stroke compared tothe bores. That puts a lot of stress on the connecting rod, rings, crank and other moving parts due to how fast the piston is moving compared to the rpm, how much side load there is on the rod and what not from being so far out cause of the stroke. With the 265, it having the longest stroke and all 25 blocks are the same for the most part, it ends up having the shortest connecting rod, so we have a piston moving a lot faster per rpm compared to most engines because in that 1 rpm, it has to travel up and down 4-3/4 vs 3-3/4 that's on the 201. The shortest rod length means that rod is moving at more extreme angles then the 201 crank and rod would cause. Yes the stock 265 vs stock 218, it's the king of torque and horse power.... but by how much? Plus with the upgrades that are commonly done, that helps to equal a lot of things out. In 1954 the 230 was rated at 110hp the 265 was 119, however by 1959 the 230 was rated at 138. This could mean something or could mean nothing. 218, 230, 251 is easier to come by then the 265. 

    Well you make some interesting observations.    On HP your numbers are not quite correct and what was published was for the 265 coming out in 1952 under valued and with a purpose.  I have uploaded many times and can send it to you, the 1952 poster which was the start of the 265 and as well the start of dual carbs and factory dual exhaust, but also 241 dodge hemi. The Hemi for what they called the medium tonnage field was primarily municipalities and contractors, dump trucks etc. It w4 ould come out at 133 hp.  The 265 for the truck with the truck cam and dual carbs and dual exhaust was 155hp.  That not a guess, thats a fact. But marketing said if you say that we will never sell the hemi, so we want it cranked back. At one point the poster was the hemi at 133 and the 6 and 132,  but when it hit the dealers in December of 1951 the 6 was tucked into the corner and was shown at 136 hp.  Pure marketting. No difference to the 1964 426 hemi being called 425 hp with a single 4 barrel, and in 1966 with a wilder cam, 2 4 barrels it was still 425 hp. That of course was for insurance purposes.    In any case I digress.

    The 265 from the factory with a chrysler car 265 cam in it, was the most hp of the 23 1/2" or 25 1/2" engines.

     

    But connecting rods..  You are correct, the shorter the rod the bigger the angle.    Now its the balanced crank, rods and pistons that offset your concerns it really does.

    Think about it..   GM, FORD, you name the manufacturer.. Who else had forged cranks balanced to a gram..  answer no one..

     

    Back to your point..  Let me just say that in the 238/250/265 series engines, they are all exactly the same bore..  3 7/16"    If your having custom made forged pistons made

    well what you do is take a 238 rod, and raise the pin placement on the pistons.        Longer rod and better angle.  It doesnt work with a 218 and a 201 is smaller rods bearings so not relevant. The point being  on that one point your correct.. long the rod the better..  if..  key word if you not negatively effecting displacement.

     

    As so many would tell you, there is no replacement for displacement.

     

     

    • Like 3
  10. 18 hours ago, Ajgkirkwood said:

    I dont have much experience on this, but this is only my opinion on what makes sense to me. I know the 265 motor is the biggest one and it's the one to have. However I think personally for a 25" block you would want to find a 218, 230 block or even better a 201 block. My reason for this is the stroke of the crank. The 265 has 4-3/4 stroke, the 251 is 4-1/2. Compared to a piston size of 3.4375, it's very much under square. I think the 201 had a stroke of 3-3/4. It was a 3.375 bore, however if u used a 3.4375 piston (like in a 251 or 265) you be much closer to a "square" engine, more so if you get oversized pistons. This will have less stress as you do highway speeds. With the common upgrades of milling the head (and deck too) dual carb and exhaust, and a regrind cam. It could really wake up and be a hot motor.

     

    that being said, anyone have a crank from a 218 or 201 to sell?

    Hi -  Well  in the 25 1/2" block engines.. the 201 you maybe referring to was moved from USA production to the Windsor Ontario Canada plant when it opened in 1935 for the 1936 model year.  that engine was produced for 14 months out of that plant.  Among other things you may wish to consider..  The crank has smaller journals, the water jackets, are smaller. the oil galleys are smaller..  It really would be the weakest of all engines ever produced out of the Canadian Plant.    When I say that I am quoting my Grandfather who would be the GM of that engine plant when it opened in 1935, reporting directly to Walter Chrysler (and not the VP of production) and he would still be in charged of the engine plant when the very last 25 1/2" engine rolled out of the plant on Nov 11 1959.  The 230 was 23 1/2" block so not relevant to the big block discussion, beyond the small block has offset rods.    With the 218 and I am assuming your are referring to the Canadian 25 1/2" 218 and not the USA small block 23 1/2" engine that are 217 that are often called 218s.   The next generation block would actually be a changed version of the 228 ci motor which started in Windsor in early 1936. That is often referred to as a generation 2 block.  Definately better than the 201 engine,  but there would be a number of changes to the engine blocks and internal configurations.  Even the 1946 250 ci motor has a different block than would a 250 ci motor made after August 1951.   It would be that later block which has the best water jackets,  best oil circulation, reworking of oil passages and on and on.  By that point you could get a 218, 228 or the  series of 3 7/16" bore which would be the 238,  250 and 265 ci motors.  The difference is the stroke which is accomplished by changing rods, and cranks.    4 1/4" being a 238,  4 1/2" being a 250 and 4 3/4" being a 265.   But there is no question the best ever flathead engines ever built are those generations.

     

    Among other things and I could give you a laundry list..     Your talking forged cranks balanced to 1 gram,  forged pistons,  rods, pistons and cranks as an assembly balanced to 1 gram. That never existed with any other flathead engine anywhere in the world.  In fact my Grandfather often said -  I defy anyone to find a more balanced engine in the planet that came out of my plant.

     

    So if stroke becomes where you wish to draw your battle line..    best try with the 238, 250 and 265 motors..    

     

    But  by 1953 the vast majority of all orders for heavy trucks, commercial vehicles, municipal vehicles, industrial engines, for welders,  water pumps, combines, and on and on were 265s.  One can point ot military orders of 250s and I would suggest the reduction in price was the factor. They didnt want to pay the extra  $.    

     

    One last one, of total production of any single motor the 265 was produced in a volume larger than any other single motor configuation  from the Windsor Engine plant.   From 1946 until the end of the flatheads, the Windsor engine plants warranty numbers as a % of production was not only the smallest of any Chrysler engine plant by over 98% but the smallest of any engine plant in North America.     The reason was simple..  Build it better,  balance it better and you will get less back.

     

    Tim Kingsbury

     

    • Like 2
  11. On 3/29/2019 at 9:51 AM, HotRodTractor said:

    Does anyone know if the balance tube and carb speed governors were standard equipment on the factory dual carb setups? They appear to be missing from the one in Don's picture.

     

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    Well after my 7th note from someone I guess I will wade in.   I have no idea what Don's picture is or what the story line there is, but here   Here is the answer to your question.  Yes,  every single dual carb dual exhaust manifold that came from the factory was equipped with govenors and balance tubes.    You could buy the intake assembly which was the intake and balanced tube, the exhaust maifolds (front or back) as individual assemblies from dealers.   Lots of stock car builders would drop the govenors. If you also drop the balance tube as many do, you will find you loose torque and hp.  You will gain rpm if you are simply removing the balance tube from the truck engine that it came from the factory with.  But and here is the key but,  all of those engines that came equipped with the setup and purpose built cams.  So  you only need to take a cam from a 1952-1953 chrysler and put it into the truck engine to raise the rpm, keeping the torque curve. It actually will develop 8 more hp with nothing more than that cam swap.        Again, I am not talking putting in a custom cam or making any other changes, beyond putting in the period car cam into the truck engine. The dual carb/dual exhaust intakes were all produced in Windsor Ontario Canada, and were available at dealers as parts starting in march 1952.  I clearly cant speak to all dealerships but can say the Wellington Motors in Guelph Ontario Canada could still get you the dual carb setup in june of 1974.  I have a receipt for a complete setup purchased that way.

     

    page 8-16 -factory duals for 265.jpg

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    • Like 2
  12. Howdy Shull  -   The fact that there is no stamped number of the block likely means at some point in time the block was cracked or could not be bored out any further and someone bought a replacement block.   The casting number on the block and the head actually do not  really provide you the information one might hope it does.   For the year of the block,  on the oil filter side of the block,  right close to the oil pan and close to the oil filler there will be the date of casting.   It was used for internal purposes as  blocks became generational items that often were used over several years and several engine sizes.   The last generational change for the 25 1/2"   Canadian engine was october 1951.At that point the block was carved internally to

    allow for the 4 3/4" stroke motor for the 265 ci motor, however that block was also used for the 238 and 250 ci motors.    Same block same bore for those 3 just different stroke.

    After 1955 the year was actually dropped as there was no further block generation.  So if your block has a month and day  but no year code is was cast after Jan 1955.

     

    So your back to the strokes  using the method BobK outlined will tell you if it happened to be a 238 (4 1/4" stroke)    250 ( 4 1/2" stroke) and 265 ( 4 3/4" stroke)  although you could also have a 228 ci motor or several other cubic inches with a spitfire head  on it.  As well while the 238, 250 and 265 are 3 7/16"   bore stock you would have to remove the head to  know for

    sure the cubic inch.

     

    I would however do as BobK suggested as a start. Pull the brass plug and measure the stroke. That really narrows things down quickly.

     

    Tim

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    • Like 1
  13. On 12/22/2017 at 10:39 AM, Adam H P15 D30 said:

    If you have the room. 

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    Sadly this is an idea that may work with other engines, but it most certainly does not work with the flathead.   We have done extensive tests. Shortly I will do a complete blog entry on it.  But the short version is that when an engine 1st starts up the temperature of the water/antifreeze is the outside air temperature.  I dont want to get into a big technical arguement as I

    know at minus 46 degrees the antifreeze isnt minus 46 so save the comment.     Are the water is moved by this plate at start up you are actually drawing heat away from the intake. Heat that even with the split i the exhaust is naturally coming from the exhaust and hitting the intake.    Now  headers made from stock exhaust actually have a closer profile to the intake than

    does say fentons, so there is more heat coming from them.    

     

    But with the water heat attached  you have no positive effect until the engine has actually reached close to or reached operating temperature.  My then you dont need it.  Prior to that point you are actually drawing temperature away from the intake.      I can say that with absolute certainty. I have tested it at multiple temperature ranges.  Just like I have with the couple of generations of edmunds that offered water heating.

     

    So save your time and money.  It doesnt work as one might expect and the icing of carbs, Ive heard this story many times and  have see many cars do it, but none where flathead mopars

    until we are talking very cold temperatures which there are some on the forum that drive in them. Absolutely no doubt about that.   In that case  split your exhaust internally and leave it connected to the intake.

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  14. 1 hour ago, Ernie Baily said:

    Hello everyone,

    Well, I did the test and still does not engage the overdrive. I checked the wiring and made sure all the wires are done like the diagrams in my Plymouth Service Manual. I'm starting to think it might a problem inside the trans. I bought the trans over 30 yrs ago(nothing lasts for ever). The other concern its the wiring I have for my petronix electronic ignition, it is different than the stock wiring diagram. Has anyone done a petronix on a 46-48 Ply other than Me?

     

     

    Well here is the wiring diagram (courtesy of George Asche.  Yes bypassing the circuit certainly tells you whether that was an issue.  The electronic ignition by itself really doesnt have anything to do with anything assuming everything is wired correctly.   Ill drop you a pm.

     

    52-56 borg warner r10 Plymouth Overdrive wiring schematic.jpg

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  15. Here is what we use in every vintage overdrive transmission (R6,  R7 ,  R10G1)  and every straight vintage 3 speed,   4 speed and yes even the 5 speeds in our heavy 1952-1956 Dodge trucks.  We have trannys with over 100,000 miles on them using it,  as would the recognized expert in vintage trannys George Asche.    He has taken apart a tranny with tens of thousands of miles on it using Fuel Synthetic oil that yes is really designed for Diesel engines and the internals were perfect.

     

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  16. 3 hours ago, Bryan said:

    That helped a lot ..not planning to run over 4,000 RPM much but I only want to overhaul my engine one time. I want it to be reliable if I have to cruise at 65 for any distance. Only think I would be doing that if I was going to a car show or club meeting.  I might add a pre-oil electric pump or reservoir tank to circulate oil before starting (it won't be a daily driver).  Since we're off topic, any opinions on the original thick ring pistons?   I'm toying with the idea of custom pistons with the same skirt, but changing to a modern 3 ring setup.

    While a pre oil pump or sump design is certainly an improvement, its over kill and definitely not anything  your going to need.

     

    On pistons,  again, for what your talking its over kill. Cast pistons with 4 rings  are more than capable of running a couple of hundred thousand miles.  Now in terms of original pistons and rings, well right off the bat it depends on what engine your talking about. There were forged pistons and cast pistons, as well as chrome rings and cast rings used over the decades in flathead mopars.   But for a discussion on  which is better, original 1930-1959 technology verses modern forged pistons and modern rings well there is little question which is better. We use custom pistons are rings all the time. The biggest issue is simple.. They are expensive.

    But in my 1949 Plymouth or our dragster,   they are Venola Top Fuel Pistons,  coated with plasma moly rings. They are smaller, lighter, stronger  and....  expensive. I will attach a picture of a modern forged piston sitting beside an OEM 265 ci piston from 1954.   The last 6 pictures are the pistons we had custom made for the 1933 Plymouth race car, and as you can see the rings are super thin.

    But back to your engine your describing, you dont need that.  You should be able to do a rebuild with  decent cast pistons,   decent bearings etc and never have to rebuild it again. Even if you want to bore it out a bunch, regrind the cam to some mild custom grind, deck the block, shave the head etc,  you dont need pre-oil pump and custom pistons.  But then, lol, there is lots I dont really need but I have anyways, so by all means fill your boots.

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  17. 6 hours ago, greg g said:

    Surprised to see the big box store 4 inch paper filters on a race engine.  Seems they would be to restrictive for the application.  But since each carb is only flowing 33% of total intake maybe they work.  I made up an oval deal that uses a filter element that prvdes about three times the filtering element of that style filter.

    The challenge he has is the same challenge I have on my 1949 Plymouth Business coupe, and that is the back air cleaner is so close to the firewall.  The actual diameter of the air filter  is actually only part of the equation when it comes to air filters.  Its the total amount of square inches or square feet of media surface that is actually the key number.  Obviously the larger the diameter and larger the height the more opportunity there is to utilize filter media. I mention that as on my car I am actually using a custom made filter media which has almost 3 times the total media area of the ones the owner of the 1933 Plymouth put on his car.  Improving the air flow is one of the items on the agenda to improve on the car.    With the help of a friend were actually working on off setting  what are known as 7" round air cleaners.  That being said there is nothing wrong with oval designed air cleaners. Would love to have a look at your creation.

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  18. A couple of still shots of the dragster and in answer to the question of how about some videos of it running. Well they will be coming and they do already exist, but for a couple of reasons, including an non-disclosure agreement we cant post them publicly at this point.

     

    Again, my apologies for the slight wavering from the original thread intent, but I really couldn't resist and have tried to also clarify the relative oiling points I think the originator of the thread was looking for.

     

    Tim

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    • Thanks 1
  19. 19 hours ago, John-T-53 said:

    I didn't know these guys were crank experts too? I though George was the expert on carbs, manifolds, and overdrives. And Tim is the new guy taking over George's business...?

    Agreed that the original poster is right in not feeling the desire to cross drill is crank.

    These engines are low revving motors...good up to about 3500, they should go up into the 4k - 5k range, even if possible.

    Hey John -  Just to clarify as I sit here laughing while reading your post,  I am definitely not taking over George's business or anything close to that. Ive know George for over 20 years. George has been building performance flathead engines for over 60 years. His 1929  Desoto which he still owns was undefeated at the Flying Mile on Daytona Beach in 1955 at 142 mph. That highly modified 265ci engine was built by George.  George built the engines for his Uncle Harry Hiens who is in the nascar hall of fame. Those flathead engines were legendary for beating all kinds of v8s.   My family background dates back to my Grandfather who worked for Chrysler starting in the 1930s, my Dad who was also an automotive engineer, who build flathead stock car engines in the 50s and 60s, later moving on to building engines for a number of well known top fuel racers.  My background really pales in comparison to all of those, although have grown up around some of the best and brightest in the industry.While I do have an automotive engineering degree, it was definately not where the bulk of my career focused by any stretch.  I did run a car in the pro stock class in the 1970s and owned the track record at Toronto International when it closed. While I helped build a couple of engines for that car, it was really as an assistant as it was primarily both of my grandfathers that were the primary builders along with my Dad.  

    I have been fortunate to have known George Asche Jr and he and his family have enjoyed a special bond with my family for a long time. From that yes with George, my Dad Eddy along with a buddy I went to school with and myself we did come up with a couple of performance intakes.   As you point out that is likely where George and I are likely better known  and your also correct George  would be pretty well known for his building of overdrives, carbs, linkage etc.

    But that really is a tip of the iceberg in many ways.  George had built likely 50 performance engines since I have known him, and maybe that is a conservative number.   In the last 5 years I know he has build 18 of them.  Now I think its safe to say that he would say, as my Dad would have while he was still alive as I would, were always interested in learning more about flathead mopar engines, and improving them. None of use pretend to know everything about them in terms of improving their performance.

    That being said,  let me say this about the topic of oiling.  There are lots of things you can do to improve the oiling.  1st thing with any rebuild is to simply turn the two cam bearings from using the big hole, which is how they came from the factory, to using the small hole.  There is way more oil hitting the cam than was ever needed.  Next make sure you have good oil pressure, which really is a way of saying make sure you have a good oil pump.  Yes there were higher volume oil pumps for trucks. Yes we try and use them on higher rpm builds but for 99% of every engine I hear being built its not required.

    I could go though a bunch of tips but unless your planning on spinning your engine above, let me peg it at 5000 rpm regularly and your running a long stroke engine,  you dont need it.   Use the small hole in the cam bearing, make sure your have a good oil pump and drive on drive on.

    In terms of a couple of race engines.. Attached are pictures of a 1933 Plymouth. Its spent its life as a road racer. It was highly competitive at the Brickyard at Indy and was a engine build by a well known engine builder.    Its owner found out the hard way that yes there is a portion of the track with a bank on it, and as he rode up the bank to pass a Porsche   and a Ferrari he lost oil pressure and it locked up. It literally bent a rod and  another rod broke loose and went through the block.   George  was called on to build the new engine for the car, and what I will say is in this years season, the car  which has always been competitive, rose up the ranks significantly  and the performance improvements were categorized by its owner as "simply incredible how much additional power it has"..  Here is was recently as it has finished off the race season and was brought back to George for some further improvements, including changing the fuel distribution, and changing the rear end gearing. This engine is capable of in excess of 6000rpm

     

    and of course another video of the AoK dragster (which for you trivia fans, AoK was a name George came up with..  It stands for Asche over Kingsbury)..    and George's official answer to the question of  -  " how fast is that car"..     Answer - "Its faster than the average Echo"  Aka The Toyota Echo.. 

     

     

     

    A couple of things off topic I like to note here putting to rest the myth that you need electronic ignition for a performance engine, this engine runs an original Chrysler dual point distributor with points!  Yes its been modified, but there is no electronic ignition.   Yes we also do have a magneto set up for the car to eliminate the battery but what we were puddling with here is trying to get the idle off of the stall which used to be around 2000 rpm.  Now down to just over 1000 rpm, its quite easy to drive.

    Back to the oiling in the engine. Yes we  grooved bearings, and did some internal drilling and modifications to get oil return. We have a windage tray with crank scrapers for pulling off oil as this engine spins well above 7000 rpm.

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  20. 3 hours ago, wayfarer said:

    OK Tim, I'll bite....when you have time send me a list of the variations in the first 80 cams that you have documentations for as I'd like to be better informed and not just slimed by your Canadian brother for questioning what was offered.

    Well unfortunately my Canadian brother passed away long ago. Beyond that as I said these conversations usually just turn into someone doing exactly what you are doing, and costs me time and energy, and you clearly feel there is nothing wrong with that, like taking a shot at my family or Canadians or whatever point you were attempting to make.   Like the reference of sbc chevy cam's suggesting the number of cams likely couldnt be beyond 8.  Just on that topic, feel free to do your own research on just marine cams for small block chevys. 

    All that being said, if you  took the time just to see the wiki link with the shear number of different flathead 6 mopar engines, then gave it some thought about the shear number of applications the flathead mopar was used in, you should have already concluded that over 80  cam variations and not 8 would be very possible.  The fact your reply was "when you have time send me a list of the variations of the first 80 cams......" my conclusion remains that it appears you were and are more interested in causing my work and taking shots than really trying to get information. As such,  on this topic, I will not be participating any further.

    • Sad 1
  21. 26 minutes ago, Matt Wilson said:

    I don't think Tim was talking about a single engine.  Rather, I think he was talking about all of the various flatheads that Chrysler corporation made.  He might have even been including the Big Berthas that were used in the heavy-duty trucks.  At any rate, I'm just passing along what he said.  He says his grandfather and father were automotive engineers at Chrysler back in the days when the flatheads were at the top of the heap.  In fact, interestingly, he told me his grandfather started up one of the flathead production plants in 1935.  Apparently, Tim has kept all of the old documents, parts (including experimental parts) and other related stuff that his father and grandfather brought home, and it sounds like they brought home a LOT. 

    Your close..  we were talking canadian 25 1/2" engines..    from 1935 to 1959.  My Grandfather was hired by Walter Chrysler himself and was an Engineer. My Dad was an automotive engineer, worked on a ton of different chrysler engines, from flatheads to v8s to Hemis and over all kinds of applications and racing. He did not work for Chrysler.  My Grandfather was the GM of the engine plant in Windsor Ontario.

    I do not have all of the stuff grandfather had.. I do have an entire room 12 x 24 feet, set up like a library  with rows 8 feet high with documentation. When Grandfather retired, the flathead was no longer even remotely current and as part of his retirement package he was allowed to take home his personal library from the engine plant of all the obsolete stuff.  Honestly I have no clue how much there is. its not dozens of manuals. Its not hundreds of manuals, its thousands. I would guess just his work diaries, notes, drawings etc would be several hundred thousands of pages.  At one point he offered to  give it all to the Chrysler Museum and they passed.

    He did donate about a couple of pallets of documentation.

    • Like 4
  22. 21 hours ago, Matt Wilson said:

    Tim Kingsbury told me that there were over 80 different cam profiles for the flatheads, some of which were used in industrial units.  That way, Chrysler could tailor the performance of the engine to the application.  Applications included cars and trucks of all sizes, stationery pumps, compressors, tugs, welders, generators and probably numerous other applications.  Some folks have posted on other sites that in some applications, the engine would run at high rpm's continuously.  So it's hard to say what to expect if transplanting an industrial engine into an automotive or truck application.

    Umm  If I didnt say dont post that one the forum I should have and the reason being is almost every time it winds up costing me tons of time to defend the facts or winds up into a scrap which to be honest is why I stay off the forum as much as I can. The why are you here now.. well 8 members emailed me today and lol... dragged me back in. 

    I also hate Wikepedia, but to save some time, here is the listing for just the car engines

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_flathead_engine

    I haven't checked for accuracy but it shows 27 engines and I know from my Grandfathers documentation, just out of the Canadian Engine Plant starting in 1935 for the 1936 model year to the end of production in 1959 there were over 55 cams just for cars.

    On the truck side, there were specs for pickups and bigger trucks using the exact same engine, and then another cam change for those engines where they used multiple carbs. Aka  1952 265.

    Now ad over 37 different combination of the flathead 6 for marine,  ranging from civilian to military to different variation for different countries depending on octane level.  

    Next we have the agricultural sector which had combines for 4 different manufacturers,  6 swathers,  3 tractors and then different generations of those and you have a bunch more cams.

    Then there were water pumps, which used 11 different flatheads,  welders with over 22 different flatheads, aircraft,   welders, snowmobiles,  tugs for aircraft,   fork lifts, loaders and generators. There were 14 cams just for air compressors, some of which drove a compressor and some of which used some of the cylinders to produce air.  On the miltary side absolutely ever engine had its one spec and cams.   From cars,  trucks, power wagons, heck even tanks.

    The reality is we have the specs we can grind over 80 different cams, it is not there were over 80 different cams..  Hell I havent even counted it but its several hundred different cams for flatheads.

    Go find any engine in history that was used in more places than the flathead mopar 6 cylinder... If there is one,  Its sure wont be a small block chevy..

     

     

    9 hours ago, wayfarer said:

    I might question 80 different cam profiles for any one engine from a single manufacturer....I'm not thinking that even am sbc would have that.....8 might be more realistic but that is not the subject at hand.

    There are still plenty of the 25" units so it is good to see them being used.

    Lol..   why do people this a small block chevy is the gold standard for anything ?   

    Actually but since your on the topic..   Just for marine..  not talking whatever else a SBC is used for, but just marine, I could find 17 different cam specs.    Im not picking on you but I did have to laugh.. 8.. There are at least 51 cam patterns just for the Canadian, USA, British, and Israel military just for the Canadian 25 1/2" engine.. Different hp, different octane, different fuel from gas to propane to some weird fuel requirements out on the field.   I have no idea how many more there were for the USA side.

    I do agree there are lots of 25 1/2" still around which is amazing given the last one rolled out of the engine plant in Windsor before I was born in 1960.    But the plant pretty much ran around the clock from 1952 to the switch over to the slant six in 1959. 

    • Like 2
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  23. On ‎19‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 1:19 PM, Alshere59 said:

    So the 1" phenolic washers were only for heat? Also why the balance tube on the stock set?  I have fenton dual carb intake and have seen it mentioned to run the same 1 inch spacers but I had thought it was for low speed torque. Now i need to find that discussion again.. 

    That is correct its principle reason is heat. Without them the fuel tends to percolate in the carbs.   It also does help raise the carbs. If we had been able to find 2`inch phenolic washers or spacers we would have used them.   The customer does not have the setup you see installed yet so we can not conclude that a further raising of the carbs might be required.   The balance tube was used for multiple reasons.  I provided a rise of the carbs above the actual intake which provided a) added torque  b.) separated the exhaust heat which is always connected to the intake   In your Fenton intake which  is the same design as an Offy and D&S the issue is the carbs are way to low. and the square nature of its design being completely different than the mopar stock which nets that that intake tends to loose a great deal of torque while increasing RPM.    I would suggest a block or spacer of at least 2`inches would be advisable if you were going to use that intake.    I can also tell you that the internal round design of the factory intake is far superior to the fenton, offy and d&s design.  Hope that helps answer your question.

    • Like 1
  24. On ‎03‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 0:09 PM, Kingsway said:

    Hello. New today in this forum. I have a question regarding my Dodge Kingsway 1951, made in Canada and shipped to Sweden in parts to be assembled here, back in those days. I wounder about my engine number, it's :

    DP23*241 321*

    Does anyone have ant information regarding these letters and numbers?

     

    Ive read that your engine is 23" so it is made in the USA.  There were never any 23" small blocks made in Canada, just as starting with the 1936 model year all 25" 6 cylinders were only made in Windsor Ontario Canada.   If your car was a convertible, the ones sold in Canada were actually assembled in Detroit and all have 25" engines. The engine serial numbers are actually applied  at the point its destination or purpose is determined.

    On the oil filler side down by the oil pan there will be a date code cast into the block.  It is unusual to see  DP or export cars/engines shown as manufactured in Canada with the USA engines. In fact almost a little suspicious, but I wonder if there was a export advantage to ship from Canada vs USA a that point.  Certainly my family has pictures of the barges across the river between Detroit (USA) and Windsor (Canada) and cars being moved back and forth.  The convertibles were the most frequent, but perhaps export cars were similar in nature. 

     

    Very cool

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    • Like 1
  25. 22 hours ago, Carmak said:

    I just started working on a 37 P3. The previous owner took the top off of the transmission and let it sit long enough that the gears seized (or he took it off because the trans seized). I am looking for direct bolt in options? What years and models will fit?

    I am not looking to convert to a T-5 or other modern transmission at this time.

    I know of a 35 or 36 Dodge transmission. Would it fit?

    Thanks.

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    The 1936, 37, 38 overdrive out of a Desoto or Chrysler will work. A straight 3 speed the Chrysler and Desoto will work, I am not 100% sure about the Dodge.  The early 1936 and 1935 you don't really want to use.

    • Like 2
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