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timkingsbury

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  1. timkingsbury
    Sunday February 6 2022 -   Guess who turns 90 today ? 
     
    The answer to that question is -  George Asche Jr,  born  February 6th 1932!
     
    Here is an great article that  was published in the local paper earlier this week, celebration   "The Nifty at 90  -  George"
     

     
    If you want to call George and wish him a Happy Birthday,   his number is  814-354-2621 although around 4pm on his birthday  he likely wont
    be answering the phone until 7pm. I cant confirm or deny there maybe a Birthday Party, but I can confirm there will be cake!   If  he asks you who told you it was his Birthday and you want to get a chuckle,  tell him  - "It was your 3rd son",  which will  get a smile from him as that is often how he introduces me.
     
     
    For those wondering if George is still active these days, the answer is  -  "Heck yes" - he is still doing what he loves every single day.
     
    Here is a little video when I was down before Christmas.  I was down for a few days and he rebuild an overdrive,  finished off an engine rebuild doing the assembly of the engine, and rebuild 3 carbs.      In the video he was mounting 3 rebuilt carbs on one of our AoK triple intakes, and  making some modification to some linkages that came from a customers previous intake and what I wanted to document was how to setup and adjust up 3 carbs all operating on a common rail.  What it will show is not only how to do that, but also shows George still at it and going strong.  Oh and yes for those with a close eye,  that is a copy of  the poster that was on the back of the door at my Grandfathers office at the Chrysler Engine plant. The poster which was made in late 1951 was announcing the new Hemi for the Dodge Truck line and introduction of the factory dual carb and dual exhaust on the 265 ci motor.
     
     
    I will attach a copy of that poster at he bottom of this post.
     
     
     
     
     

     

  2. timkingsbury
    Howdy folks -
    Coming from another blog topic, which strayed down a back road, came the idea of  transmissions for Mopar Cars and Trucks that were post 1940 that came with  Column shift and the normally column shift transmission was modified or the linkage was to turn it into a 3 speed floor shift transmission.
    So this isn't about taking a vehicle that had column shift and putting a transmission for the 1930s or a modern floor shift transmission to make the vehicle floor shift. This is taking say a 1950s r10g1 overdrive and putting it into a 1930s car or a 1950s pickup and making it a floor shift.   It could also be taking a standard 3 speed column shift and making it into a floor shift in that same vehicle.
    Its not a new concept by any stretch.  My Dad put an r10g1 overdrive from a 1952 Plymouth into a 1951 Fargo pickup truck which had been a 3 speed column shift pickup. He had taken a Fenton floor shifter kit that was a kit to move column shifts and made a bunch of changes to get it to work.  The truck is long gone but we actually recovered the shifter which had been cut off at some point by the person who got the pickup.   I will take some pictures at some point for the fun of it.  We got it moving again but it would be too expensive to try and duplicate.  George has also built a very simplified for racing which is super simple, although I am not sure would work for regular street usage, and he also has one his Uncle Harry Hein's made but duplicating it, is a project that hasn't quite made it to the top of the pile.
    We also have several pictures of guys who have done them, although most are pretty heavily involved and some quite clunky looking.
    All that being said, the reason I started this was -  Paul aka   
    pflaming  had posted a picture of his project of making a traditional 3 speed floor shift Plymouth transmission, and turning it into a floor shift, which really was the impetus for this blog idea. 
    "The shifter I fabbed from a photo, not my design. It is uncomplicated and will serve my purposes very well. The tranny and OD are not on the engine yet."
     
     

  3. timkingsbury
    This was my Dad's  original 1938 Desoto -  Plymouth Approved Service Dealer Sign.
    My Grandfather  had a later Desoto-  Plymouth sign and a Chrysler -  Fargo Trucks sign hanging on the outside of his shop, which he built after he retired from Chrysler Corporation. It was a 42" sign and of course Dad always admired it.     When Grandfather passed away the signs were sold at auction and the pair sold for $18,500 and after their sale Dad almost immediately started looking for one.  Years later on his first trip to our friend George Asche's he smiled when he saw George had one hanging  on his garage.     I took a picture of the pair of them in front of the garage and it became one of Dad and George's favourite pictures.   The meeting of the Northern and Southern Flathead Mopar minds. 
    In any case, it would be about a decade later when Dad would  finally see one come up for auction and of course it wound up costing more than  did the one that sold at Grandfathers Auction.
    During the lead up to the auction it came to light that dealer sign was an original 1938 sign and as we checked out the sign measured it, and then compared it to the one that sold at Grandfathers sale, there was indeed a slight difference in size.  Grandfathers was 42" and this one was 45". Grandfathers, well it had made its way back to Chrysler and was on display at the Walter Chrysler Museum.
    Given its age, it was in remarkable conditions when found (see picture of the pre-restoration sign) but after speaking to George who wished he had restored the enamel instead of painting its spots missing enamel, and speaking to the Curator at the Walter Chrysler museum it was decided to have it restored  by the best we could find.  It underwent a world class restoration on the few areas that needed attention, by the leading enamel sign restoration company, Don Van Kannel  - Van Kannel Sign Restoration and it is in absolutely spectacular condition.
    Sadly its restoration would take a number of years, and Dad would pass away without ever seeing it finished.
    The family has wrestled with keeping it, or selling it.  It had been appraised at $15,000 prior to it being restored and with the restoration cost, the imminent sale of Mom and Dad's place it really didn't make sense to keep it. So we put it up for sale and also consigned it to a large automotive memorabilia auction.   We got a few  people express interest, and a couple of trade offers, but nothing serious, so off it went to the automotive memorabilia auction with no reserve but a guarantee for the auction company on the minimum sale price.
    As our luck has seem to have gone lately, the sign appeared to sell at the auction for well above the guarantee the auction company had provided us.  But a couple of days after the  auction we were told that the buyer had failed  complete the sale.   Grrrrrrr, what else can you say.
     
    So the Sign went up for sale on this week Ebay and locally.
     
    Here is the listing - and the current bid is $17,250 (a verified buyer with a 5780 rating)
     
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/252734854732?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649
     
    We have put it up for sale  at  less that we  (Dad) had in the sign, but it needs a new home and we would really like to see it go to a new home.   We might consider a trade for something, but it will need to be something one of the family wants, and then they will put the cash into the estate.
    If you have any questions feel free to drop me a note at fargopickupking@yahoo.com
    Thanks for your time
     
    Tim Kingsbury






  4. timkingsbury
    Overview:
     
    We keep being asked about Mopar Overdrives, so I thought I would do a blog on spotting overdrives.
     
    I know from the start this is not the definitive guide, thus I have titled it - "The Rough Field Spotters Guide for
    Overdrives" and this will start off being slanted towards Plymouths !
    This will definitely grow as I need to take some pictures of earlier (pre-1942) overdrives to put up.
     
    If you want to add replies with more information, super, more than welcome. If you want to send me pictures
    and add them in, again more than welcome. I will be putting a list of contributors on the bottom. I say that because my intention if to keep adding to this. As well I will put up a few pictures that I happen to have close at hand, but will adjust, add and change pictures as time goes on.
     
    I may also put in a tab with links to other sites, article etc on overdrives as I find them !
     
    Chapter 1:
     
    Chrysler started using Overdrive Transmissions in 1934 and Walter Chrysler described it something to the effect, that the use of true overdrive transmissions were made for high speed cruising and award-winning economy should drivers opt for moderate operation.
     
     
    "Walter P. Chrysler at White House (cropped)" by Harris & Ewing, photographer
     

     
    There were several generation of early overdrives used prior to Walter Chrysler's death on 1940, starting with the introduction in
    1934 and there use would extend to every part of the Mopar family before the retirement of the L-Head of Flathead Engine Line.
     
    We will concentrate here on the early overdrives, leading up to the "peak" of the Borg Warner Electric Overdrive coming out in the 1952 Plymouth Car line with the R10G1 Borg Warner overdrive attached to a 3 speed manual transmission. The R10G1 was used fro 1952 to 1956, when Plymouth then changed to the longer R10J1 Borg Warner overdrive transmission.
     
    Along the way in the 1952 Canadian Dodge and Fargo heavy trucks a 5 speed transmission was introduced with an option of having 5th gear as overdrive. Teamed up with a 2 speed rear axle, it provided quite a range for hauling heavy payloads, or rolling down the highway empty.
     
    Chapter 2: - The history of the overdrives (short version)
     
    On Monday April 13, 1931 when the United States Patent Office opened, Rex Keller was there to file application # 529,666, making 36 Claims for patent of a “Clutch”. This application would eventually be issued of May 16, 1939 as patent # 2,158,544 to Rex E Keller Los Angeles California.

     

     
     
    The application for patent was pitched to Walter P Chrysler, who would assign it to Carl Breer the head of Engineering to see if they could utilize the concept. In Carl Breers, book/autobiography entitled “The Birth of Chrysler Corporation and Its Engineering Legacy” there is an excellent explanation of what took place and here is an excerpt of that book.
     

     

     
     

     
     

     
     
    It would be during this process that the terms “Keller Clutch” and “Overdrive” would come forward. It should be noted that this “Keller Clutch” is not named after K.T Keller (Kaufman Thuma Keller) who was head of Chrysler Manufacturing at the time, and would upon Walter Chrysler retiring in 1935 become the “hand-appointed successor” as Chairman of the Board of Chrysler Corporation, but was Rex E Keller and inventor from Los Angeles California.
     
    Once Engineering had perfected the Overdrive Transmission Carl Breer discussed its manufacturing with K.T Keller, and both asked for a meeting with Walter Chrysler to discuss that matter. Breer and Keller made a presentation on both the “Keller Clutch”/Overdrive Transmission as well as its manufacture Their estimated cost to setup manufacturing was $25,000, to which Walter Chrysler is quoted in Breers book as saying “We can’t afford it; let Borg Warner make it.”
     
    What isn’t included in Breer’s book is how the $25,000 estimate was arrived at, or what the recommendation of Keller and Breer was. It is my belief that Keller, who was already stretched to bring the new Airflow to completion made sure the estimate was high enough that the joint recommendation of Keller and Breer would be approved by Walter Chrysler.
     
    My Grandfather’s opinion was that this was the most expensive error in Chrysler’s history and ironically mirrored that of Henry Ford with the Dodge Brothers. While it brought the Overdrive transmission to the Chrysler and Desoto lines well ahead of any other automotive manufacturer, it also opened up a Patent that was controlled by Chrysler to its competition through the manufacturing deal with Borg Warner. It would soon be referred to as “the Borg Warner Overdrive”.
     
    Well after my Grandfather’s death when Daimler agreed to sell the Chrysler unit to Cerberus Capital Management in May 2007 for US$6 billion, Borg Warner had a market cap value of almost twice the value of Chrysler.
     
    Unfortunately it seems Grandfather was indeed correct, and he often pointed out that it was not the 1st time where a smaller supplier was put into business and eventually dwarfed the larger manufacturer. Of course he was referring to the Dodge Brothers who prior to going on their own to manufacture their own Cars and Trucks, were major suppliers for Henry Ford. In 1903 the Dodge brothers had agreed to supply Henry Ford with 650 chassis (including engines, transmissions, and axles) for $250 each.
    In this case to avoid a further investment of $25,000 Chrysler put a much small manufacturer into a business, which later on would come back to bite Chrysler. To put it into relative terms Chrysler had purchased Dodge for approximately $170 million in 1928.
     
    On March 14, 1934 Rex Keller would file application # 715,513, with the United States Patent Office making 4 Claims for patent of an ”Automatic Transmission”. This application would eventually be issued of December 17, 1940 as patent # 2,225,174 to Rex E Keller Beverly Hills California. It would be in this application for patent that the first use of the terminology “Overdrive” would be used. Ironically this patent was not issued until after Walter P Chrysler’s death some 4 months earlier.
     

     

     
     

     
     
    So who was Borg Warner -
     
    In 1902 Thomas W. Warner formed the Warner Gear Company in Muncie Indiana to manufacture automobile parts, steering, and transmission gears. In 1909 the First manual transmission is manufactured by Warner Gear. The original Borg-Warner Corporation was formed in 1928 by the merger of Warner Gear, which itself was founded by Thomas Warner in 1901; Borg & Beck founded by Charles Borg and Marshall Beck in 1903 and Marvel Schelber Carburetor Co founded in 1905 by George Schebler and the Mechanics Universal Joint Company.
     
    Chapter 3: The patents
     
    - Work in progress. I now have them, just need to figure out how to get them in the blog entry
     
    Chapter 4: The overdrive generations
     
    This is a high level chart on the various Mopar Overdrives
     
    1934 overdrive 1st used by Chrysler (I believe in the Chrysler Custom Imperial Royal and the Airflow)
     
    This was a Warner Transmission and Warner Overdrive
     
    Patent Image - R E Keller Patent: 2,225,174 Filed: March 14 1934

     
    Walter P Chrysler showing of The 1934 chrysler airflow - equipped with overdrive

     
    1935 Chrysler - Tr14 warner transmission with a separate overdrive unit.
     
    It expanded in the models it was used, some standard equipment and some Optional
    The models this transmission and overdrive came in were:
     
    CHRYSLER AIRFLOW, MODEL Cl OPTL.
    CHRYSLER IMPERIAL, C2 (1935)
    CHRYSLER CUST. IMP. CW* ('35), C3 ('35),
    DE SOTO, MODEL SG (1935)--OPTL.
     
    An early advertisement showing "over drive"
     

     
    1936- This year is one on to its own it is a 1 piece - Borg Warner T86 1A overdrive transmission
     
     

     

     
     

     

     

     
     
     
     
    1937 - This is the first year of the Borg Warner R6 transmission
     
    The 1937 is the last year with the parking brake on the floor and the parking brake drum on
    the back of the transmission has the connection on the right side.    Its still a non electric overdrive.
     

     

    It is at this point that Chrysler really started to pump the overdrive in its marketing brochures.
    Not only was it featured in the Car Brochure but they produced a separate brochure just
    on the overdrive and its features.
     
    Here is an example of the car brochure
     



     

     


     

     
     
    Here is the rare 1937 Overdrive Brochure
     



     

     


     

     


     
    1938 – The Borg Warner R6 transmission - still a top loader, floor shift only
     
    With the 1938  the parking brake on the drum now moves over to the left side and this is the last year of a pure floor shift.
    It is still a non-electric overdrive,  which means for example if your going up a hill in 3rd overdrive, you will need to  shift
    down to 2nd.  You cant just get it out of overdrive without slowing down substantially.  You need to be going down
    to between 25-35 mph to get it out of overdrive.
     

     

     
     

     
    Here is a 1938 Chrysler Custom Imperial Brochure - extracts
     
     

     

     
     

     
     

     
     

     
     

     
     
    Here is he 1938 Chrysler Royal Imperial Brochure - extracts

     

     
     

     
     

     
     


    Here are some pictures of a 1938 overdrive transmission, freshly restored  January 22 2015 by the master -George Asche Jr
     
     

     
     

     
     

     
     
    1939 – The Borg Warner R6 transmission - "Electric overdrive" & Optional two formats
     
    So for 1939 you could have the top load or floor shift and you could have column shift which was done with a cable.
    1939 also saw the first use of the solenoid so it would electrically kick it out of overdrive. Prior to that you have to get down to about
    25-35 mph to get it out of overdrive.
     

     
    Illustration showing the cable used in the Column shift

     

     

     
     

     
     
    Here are some pictures of a 1939 overdrive transmission.

     

     
     

     
     

     
     

     
     

    1940 – The Borg Warner R7 overdrive and Now Only column shift - 1 year only
     
    This is also the last year where the gear cluster and 2nd speed gear in the 3 speed transmission
    gave you a "fast 2nd speed". This was done with a cluster tooth count of - "14.19.25.32" and the 2nd speed
    gear was a 23 tooth count. After this the cluster was a tooth count of "14.19.23.32"
     
    Chrysler also beefed up the cluster gear so it is thicker than the 1939 and older transmissions.
     
    I have a good reference document describing the "WARNER OVERDRIVE "KICK-DOWN1 CONTROL" dated 1940, 
    I have uploaded it here called " 1940 Overdrive info
     
    1940 overdrive info.pdf
     
    1941 - The Borg Warner R7 overdrive ends as a new car offering
     
    It seems very few cars in 1941 had the R7 overdrive in them although I do know that there was a Chrysler Service
    bulletin that described putting this R7 overdrive transmission in later model cars and I know of at least 1 1942 Plymouth which had an overdrive from the factory in it. Keep in mind Canada entered the 2nd World War in 1939,
    so civilian cars after 1939 were tough to get until the 1946 model year. This maybe one of the very 1st Plymouths
    to have an overdrive in it, as everything I have described earlier are Chrysler and Desoto vehicles.
     
     
     
    1952 - 1956 - The Borg Warner R10G1 overdrive and the full introduction in the Plymouth line
     
    1952   became the 1st time since 1941 that Chrysler  had overdrives  in any vehicle.   The overdrive patent, known as the Keller Clutch
    had see the head of production outsource its build to Warner, which eventually became Borg Warner.   The agreement he signed
    with  Warner was that as long as Chrysler was using the overdrive Warner(Borg Warner) could not make overdrives for any other companies,
     
    Following Walter Chrysler stepping down as the President of Chrysler, and passing away in 1940 then former head of production, then the President
    of Chrysler  decided to drop the use of overdrives.  His feeling was there was ample  horsepower,  a great supply of gasoline all over the place an the overdrive 
    would no longer be required.  How wrong he was!
     
    With the  passing of 10 years, Borg Warner reached out to  both Ford and GM and  in 1951 overdrives were supplied to other than Chrysler.  The
    impact  was immediate. Customers bought competitors cars when Chrysler didnt have what others described as "The new overdrive concept".
    That forced Chrysler to go back to Borg Warner and for the 1952 model year Plymouth would have as an option an overdrive.
     
    Unlike the previous overdrives, this was a full electric overdrive,  allowing it to be  taken out of overdrive as any speed, and with the addition
    of a kickdown switch on the  carb,  one could  step hard on the gas pedal "kicking it out of overdrive" allowing you to pass.  The overdrive
    could be engaged in any gear, making it in effect a 6 speed transmission.
     
    Lots more details further in blog article,  but here are a couple of pictures of the r10g1 along with a wiring diagram which shows
    a modification allowing for not only the kick down switch on the carb, but also a switch that could be mounted in the cab allowing
    the operator to take it out of overdrive without "kicking it down".  That modification was something George Asche Jr made in the late 1950s.
     

    1st a marked up picture of an r10g1 pointing out features and length
     

     
    here is George Asche Jrs  wiring diagram
     

     
    This is an r10g1 overdrive that has been modified with a long shaft installed (and a long throw out bearing) which then allows
    an r10g1 to be used in a Dodge or Chrysler that had a fluid drive or or semi automatic transmission.
     

     
    1956 (late) more commonly 1957-1959 the Borg Warner R10J1 overdrive appeared
     
    I say late 1956 because I have known seen a Plymouth built on December 10th 1956 that has the R11 overdrive in it right from the Windsor Ontario Canada plant. I will add a bunch more to this R11 section over time.
     
    The r10J1 is essentially in many ways the same as the earlier r10G1  except  it is a much longer transmission.
    Total length of tranny from bell housing to back of brake band is 25".     Unfortunately it makes the transmission not an ideal candidate to put into cars prior to 1957
    although in the next two pictures the person did put an R10J1 into an earlier Plymouth which did not have the cross over support frame that was in the 1957-1959 cars
     
    As well in the reference section will be more pictures of the transmission.


    The other overdrives
     
    I know described in the article in the reference section below stated that it is 1954 that dodge trucks came out with overdrives
    and describes other models. Again keep in mind I think we all find new information that allows us to be more intelligent today
    than we were yesterday and that doesn't mean that at the time that article was written that was the best information
    available to its author.
     
    I do know that in 1952 both Dodge/Fargo trucks were offered with overdrives, as I have a 1952 Fargo 4 ton with a
    265 ci motor, factory dual intake and exhaust, a 5 speed transmission, with 5th being overdrive
     
    I am also told by a very respected expert/researcher of Chrysler Service bulletins which provided information and part
    number to retrofit overdrives into cars without original equipped overdrives, which included year prior to 1952.
     
    This section will definitely be a work in progress.
     
    Chapter 5: Repair, Mix and Match, or Retrofit primer
     
    In this chapter I am going to try and go over taking transmissions and overdrives from one year/generation and putting them in earlier or in some case later model cars. I will be looking for help here as I know while we have some great knowledge on the subject there
    is much more information out there.
     
    As well, we will shortly enter into the discussion of putting a more modern overdrive transmission into your old Plymouth and it
    will not be a T5 conversion. Mopar !!!!!
     
    Here is a great resource document that covers the Overhauling of the 1935-39 Overdrives, thanks to Bert Platz, who
    is one of those guys who Is one of the specialists for the 1935-38 overdrives.
     

     

     
     

     
     

     
     
    The Reference Section:
     
     
    R1) One of the great articles I would like to refer to is one that I have been given
    Permission from “the living legend” - Jim Benjaminson to use here.
     
    Of course if you are not a member of the Plymouth Owners Club here is the place to
    Do that and catch other cool stuff and articles
     
    http://www.plymouthbulletin.com/index.htm
     
    http://p15-d24.com/blog/17/entry-87-borg-warner-overdrive-transmission-by-don-frolich/
     
    R2) The Chrysler Master Tech Series - a section of the 1952 films put on you tube.
     
    Simply great stuff covering r10g1 overdrives and a few extras I will toss in.
     
    Here is the 1952 movie to explain the overdrive to the dealers.. no this is cool !
     
    MTSC - 1952, Volume 5-5 Automotive Overdrive - Operation
     
     
    MTSC - 1952, Volume 5-6 Automotive Overdrive Controls
     
     
    MTSC - 1952, Volume 5-7 Automotive Overdrive Maintenance
     
     
    MTSC - 1952, Volume 5-8 Universal Joints And Propeller Shafts
     
     
    MTSC - 1952, Volume 5-4 Servicing Tips
     
    R3) A few early pictures
     
    I will attach here a few early pictures, lol and by early I mean early in the development of this blog post. Not early in the
    overdrives coming from Chrysler. That will come later. Right now, since I have been asked to show a picture of an overdrive
    I thought I best take this from draft to publish and will just keep updating it.
     
    So consider this a work in progress:
     
    R4) Reference Pictures
    1952-56 Plymouth 3 speed standard with overdrive tranny (R10G1 Borg Warner)
    Total length of tranny from bell housing to back of brake band is 19 1/2"
     

     
    1952-56 Plymouth 3 speed standard with overdrive tranny (R10G1 Borg Warner) with input shaft for a fluid drive bell housing

     
    1952 - 1956 Borg Warner R10G1 overdrive attached to a 3 speed standard transmission looking from bottom - again with the input shaft for a fluid drive bell housing

     
    * You can adapt the R10G1 overdrive on to the 1953-54 Plymouth Hy-Drive transmission (has a different input shaft)
     
    1957 and newer Borg Warner R10J1 transmission attached to a 3 speed standard transmission
    Total length of tranny from bell housing to back of brake band is 25"

     

     
     

     
     

     
     
    M6 Gyromatic "semi auto" with r7 overdrive (* Note: I need to put up a better year and identification description for this one)

     
    Dodge Gyromatic - had "fluid drive" without overdrive (* Note: I need to put up a better year and identification description for this one but believe it was a 1949)

     
    * Note: a 1949 Dodge Gyromatic has a external brake band for the hand brake and a 1950 and newer has
    a brake drum with internal shoes for the hand brake
    Reference Links:
     
     
    https://www.allpar.com/mopar/transmissions/
  5. timkingsbury
    In creating this spotters guide for Flathead Plymouth, Dodge, Chrysler, Desoto, Fargo intakes
    my hope was to show related information, pictures of various intakes, and attach any technical information
    and perhaps vintage ads for them.
    I am starting it here in hopes of putting something together with the help of many members and then maybe move it to the technical archives.
    .
    Why do it here ? Only because I or someone can edit and compile.
     
    #2 Nicson Engineering
     
    Nicson Engineering was we believe the very 1st aftermarket maker of dual carb intakes for the Plymouth and Dodge 23 1/2" motors. The 1st generation with several markings including the "Volumetric", and "Plymouth Dodge Cars" as well as "Plymouth dual Dodge" was for the earlier smaller 2 bolt Carter ball and ball carbs. The one pictured below was never mounted on an engine and was the only one I have ever seen.
     

     
    Here is that Nicson intake, now cleaned up, mounted with 1938 Plymouth carbs, nice new stainless linkage all done by
    George Asche - AoK racing and heading out to be a new piece of jewelry for a 1938 p6 Plymouth !
     


     
    The 2nd generation intake Nicson made was for the Chrysler, Desoto and Dodge truck 25 1/2" block as well as and intake for the "Super Big Block" engines up to and including the 377 and 413 ci engine.
     
    The 3rd generation intake was for the for the Plymouth and Dodge 23 1/2" motors taking the bigger Carter ball and ball carbs.
     
    Next the picture of a Tattersfield and a Nicson dual carb Plymouth and Dodge (23 1/2" flathead)

     
    Here is the Tattersfield circa 1950
     

     
    I have also seen a Nicson triple made as a "Chrysler Special" for the 25 1/2" block engines, but never took a picture of it. That was back in the early 70's, well before the camera on every cell phone era and have not seen one since.
     
    Courtesy of http://p15-d24.com/user/7710-charleyd/ who scored a copy of the October 1952 Hop Up Magazine, where the article which gives a big thumbs up to the Nicson intake and I will put it up under that intake thread as well as here.
    Here is the October 1952 Hop Up Magazine on Hopping up the Plymouth with some really positive endorsement of Nicson
     




     
    #2 The Coolest Funky looking intake - Tattersfield Power Equipment
     
    This intake came only in small block form for the Plymouth and Dodge (23 1.2" flathead)
    It came in 2 different generations. The 1st pictured with the Nicson intake and the 2nd generation pictured
    with carbs on it. Notice the linkage tabs on the 2nd generation intake.
    Courtesy of : http://p15-d24.com/user/7408-hellyeah/
     
    A later Tattersfield intake / exhaust combo with linkage. Note the intake has linkage tabs like Edmunds did on his later dual intake manifolds. As well a picture of a Tatterfield Aluminum head - all for the Plymouth and Dodge (23 1/2" flathead) & a letter from Tattersfield on their performance equipment.
     


     
    then
    Courtesy of: http://p15-d24.com/user/5770-61farnham/
    The Tattersfield instruction page with linkage illustration and picture of the Tattersfield intake with carb on it
     



     

     
    Some earlier Tatterfield literature, followed by the later which referenced  Mopar in the later 1940s
     


     

    \


     
     
    Notice the reference to the Electric and Carburetor Engineering Company. 
     
     This is a picture of the inside of the Electric and Carburetor Engineering Company  from a  1951 (courtesy of a P15d24 Member 50Plymouth) .  Ive seen it referenced elsewhere as a Calendar shot from 1942 although a couple of items in that picture would date it much later

    In the display end of the counter is what I believe to be the  the 2nd generation Chrysler six cylinder intake (top intake)

     
  6. timkingsbury

    Floor Shift Concepts for Mopar Column Shift Transmission - Part 2

    By timkingsbury,


    Floor Shift Concepts for 3 speed Flathead mopars
    Hello folks -   
     
    Back in 2017  I started a thread on  floor shift concepts.  It kicked off with Paul Flaming   @pflaming  who had made a shifter
    for a straight 3 speed.   He was planning to work on a version for an overdrive and got a prototype which was a 2 shifter concept.
     
    The other one was Ron Allworth's who  had made one for a buddy.  He had gave consideration to try and make production versions but the demand wasnt there,  a lot of people were really hoping for something for the r10g1 Overdrive version and to be honest Ron is
    always swamped with CoolViewThermostat.com
     
    Your can always check out that original blog and comments through this link. 
     
     
    Recently the thread drew some revised interest and I decided to  circle back with Paul and Ron to see if they had done anything further.     While neither really have  Ron Allworth was so kind to forward his original hand drawing he made when he was making the shifter for his buddy.  He said - "I think this is pretty much all someone would need to reproduce what I did.  Feel free to post the drawings, but unfortunately  I just don't have time to help anyone if they decide to build one"...  "i know as previous comments, it's somewhat over engineered but you can be as hard on it as you want when you shift and it wont break."
     
    With that   -  here is Ron's  sketches   The shift pattern is standard, reverse is left and forward, 1st is left and back. 2nd is straight forward and 3rd is straight back.
     
    Oh and if you want to check our Ron's other cool stuff here is a link for that 
     
    Cool-View: Transparent Thermostat Housing (coolviewthermostat.com)
     
    Picture 1 of 7

     
    Page 2 of 7

     
    Page 3 of 7

     
    Page 4 of 7

     
    Page 5 of 7

     
    Page 6 of 7

     
    Page 7 of 7

     
    His final product

     

     
    Finally, if you make one based on Ron's design,  please post up some pictures on the thread below!
     
     
     
  7. timkingsbury

    Potential New Product - Offset Air Cleaners

    By timkingsbury,


    Air cleaners for Flathead Mopars
    *** note:   Hang in there and at the bottom  of this article, you will be asked if you have any interest in a potential new product.
     
    For now over 30 years we have been making AoK  Triple carb intakes  for the  25 1/2"  Canadian 
    flathead engine,   found in  Chryslers from 1937,  Desoto's from late 37/38,  and  Canadian built  Dodge /Fargo trucks,  Plymouth,  Dodge cars
    since 1936.  Prior to that George Asche has been making triples from factory intakes from both the American  23 1/2" platform, the  American 24 - 24 3/4" platform
    and the Canadian 25 1/2" platform from the early 1950s.  As well renowned  performance intake manufacturer made a Triple carb intake for the 25 1/2" motor
    starting in 1952  and of course when Chrysler came out with the optional factory dual carb, dual exhaust options on trucks for the 25 1/2" platform, almost immediately
    car enthusiasts were trying to put them on cars.  Of course the governors and balance tube made it tough to get under the hood but they made it happen on stock cars and I will attach a picture of the factory intake and then the  "modified version" that was used on a vintage stock car.
     
    For all of those   Air cleaners are always a big topic.     Air cleaners for both cosmetic purposes and  of course for functionally removing dirt from the air become the 
    reason, but in many cases the challenge is to get them to fit in the engine bay.
     
    Lets start with my 1949 Plymouth, which is a Canadian built car that came from the factory with the 25 1/2" motor, and when we put the Aok triple on it.
     
    The 1st two pictures was the very day that was done and joined the "what air cleaner can I use club"
     

     
    So I measured from the firewall to the middle of the carb.  You can see that picture here and the paper was because to cover the hole  where the
    cardboard air duct  had been.

     
    Like lots I looked at  various 3 1/4 - 3 1/2"  air cleaners and the one that was marked 4"  actually wouldnt fit as it 
    was actually 4 9/16"      So he hunt was on, and  I found 3 vintage Edmunds air cleaners which after some searching
    found that the 4" air cleaner cartridges for a VW fit perfectly.      On they went
     
     

     
     
    Side view of the AoK triple on my 1949 Plymouth
     
     

     
     
    Almost immediately I was asked where  I had gotten them and could they get a set.  Of course finding the original  Edmunds was next
    to impossible. Over the next year I lent my intakes to someone who then copied them and  they are in fact available today.
     
     
    Here is the  Eddy  Edmunds  1952  - "Edmunds Racing" triple carb intake for the 25 1/2"  motor.
     

     
    Where we put the triple of our dragster,  we didn't have the firewall restrictions so we were able to move up to 6" air cleaners.
    when your do the calculations there is a huge difference between a 4" and 6" air cleaner and  we could see on the dyno, but
    of course I had access to  air filter engineering test equipment and it was  unbelievable the difference between the 2, never mind 
    when we tested some of the so called 4" air cleaners which were really 3 1/4" and 3 1/2" air cleaners.
     

     
    Here is a closer look at that air cleaner which is actually 6 1/2" air cleaner.
     

     
    Here is the factory dual carb intake I referenced and then the modified version to get it under the hood of a car.
     

     

     
    This being the factory air cleaner for the dual carb setup but they maybe the rarest of the rare for mopar air cleaners
     

     
    This being a reproduction of a 1930s Mopar aair cleaner which was later used by the 1951 GMC  pickups
    and  in the late 1940s and early 1950 Fords,   We had the star tops made and chromed or powder coated.
    This allowed to use a modern air cleaner element.
     

     
    Here is one of the original 1930s air cleaner.

     
    Of course the air cleaner as much as I would love to have it on my 1949 Plymouth, or my buddy George Asche Jr would love 
    to have it on his prized 1929 Desoto, they just wont work without a major firewall modification.  George as you will see
    here has run the Edmunds Racing intake since 1954 and it was instrumental to his going undefeated in 1954
    on Daytona Beech on the famed flying mile drag race course.    Hitting 142 mph over the course George stunned
    those running everything from the hot v8s of the day, Hemi's, a hot rod Lincoln dragster to a v12 Jaguar.  Of course
    George knew if you remove the air cleaners, as much as that put the engine at great risk, the increase in performance was obvious.
     

     
     
    Over the years I  have often toyed with the idea of offsetting the larger 6" or 6 1/2" air cleaners to get the major increase in  air surface and in some cases 
    even with  dual carb intakes the offset is needed to avoid conflicts under the hood.  A few years ago a customer we were doing an engine for, took
    a sketch I made,  our stop air cleaner creations and created 6 offset air cleaners. Here are those prototypes
     

     
     

     
    Which if you look closely you will notice they will sit nicely on the flare top carter ball and ball carbs.
     

     
    Which allow you to use the factory air cleaner clamps for a super snug fit

     

     
    Here is the prototype sitting on my 1949 Plymouth

     
    This is just a mock up but you will notice the 6 1/2" air cleaner fit perfectly and is no closer
    to the firewall that the original Edmunds Air Cleaners.
     
     

     
     
    Now the creator of the  original prototype  found out just how big of an undertaking the offset base was to make and 
    really had no interest in making any more and believe me I tried.  In fact I chose not to mention him here, not
    in an effort to avoid giving him credit, but because naming him could wind up unleashing the masses trying to 
    pester him to make "just one more set" for them.
     
    At this point  I could  just leave it be,   have the 3 air cleaners finished and  given to George Asche Jr for his 90th birthday and the other 3 finished up
    and place on our 1936 Fargo which although rock stock internally, sports an AoK triple and a set of George's  headers made from factory exhaust manifolds
    like my 1949 Plymouth.      BUT... and it is a Big but,  that really isnt the AoK style to  make something that no one can ever have.
     
    To that (and congratulations if you have read through this book to this point.... lol) another AoK customer and  Flathead Mopar super fan has 
    decided to join forces and see if he can get the offset air cleaner bottoms made.    In this case, he is well versed with the manufacturing world
    both in the United States,  Canada,  off shore in the orient and  down under in Australia.
     
    i know  there is massive amount of interest, but  and again its a big but, at what price is that interest ?
    I know if they were $10 we could sell, oh about a million of them,  and if they were  $1500  for one we would sell  pretty close to 0.   I say pretty close
    because I know a couple of guys who have already offered me a ridiculous amount of money to scoop 3 of the ones I  just had powder coated.
     
    I also know how pricy it is to create the star tops and those air cleaners without the offset are in the $150 range.    It is possible that the offset
    bottoms could be sold just as a bottom where a customer could do their own air cleaner element and top or as a complete air cleaner.   I can tell you
    if we can make these  cheap, as in low cost and high quality we will, but at the end of the day demand will determine if the project gets off the ground.
     
    If your interested,  drop me a PM here or a note to me at fargopickupking@yahoo.com.  Of course is your interested at the $$  below what the current off shore bottoms
    with hose clamp connection, replaceable elements & star top air cleaners, sorry but at this point I don't think there is a need to get in touch with  us, because unless
    something unforeseen happens I don't see  that  happening.
     
    Thanks -
     
    AoK boys
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     




  8. timkingsbury

    Merry Christmas & Happy New Years from the AoK boys

    By timkingsbury,


    AoK Racing Christmas Greetings
    Well folks as 2021 starts to wind down we reflect on the 2nd year challenging year us a row under a global pandemic.   With now over 5,412,000 dead world wide,  over 837,000 dead in the USA, over 30,000 dead in Canada,   2% of everyone who gets it dies and   just over 24 million active cases in the world right now, of which just over 11 million of those are in the USA it’s a very challenging and stressful time.
     
    While its easy to get caught up in the effects on our lives from unable to get things that are stuck in transit somewhere,  or getting things accomplished as  things that used to take a couple of weeks or a month, now take months and months it pales in comparison when it’s a friend of loved one that  gets Covid19 and dies, or even when they have long term health issues.
     
    Sadly this year we saw friends and loved ones  get sick from Covid19 and  we buried far to many, not to mention many remain with long term health issues.  The pandemic has worn down so many of us ,who have tried to stay safe, or there were too many who bought into some conspiracy crap floating around on social media which collectively has seen the current variants of Delta and Omicron to run rampant.   While Canada is now at 90% vaccinated, the USA remains around 70% and while there is not over 8.9 billion doses of Covi19 Vaccines administered around the world, collectively the world is at jut 57.3% vaccinated which has left a great breeding ground for new varriants.
     
     
    On a positive note, this year, at least around us  in both Rural Pennsylvania  and Rural Ontario (Canada) there has been some return to normal things, like Santa Claus parades,  Cities and Towns lit up every night with fabulous Christmas light displays. While School kids and churches are not putting on Christmas plays and pageants to as they once did, it is great to see that thanks to vaccines there can be something close to a normal Christmas for the kids.
     
    Santa Claus and the elves at he Magical North Poll as now resting, and everyone enjoying their Christmas day. For the hockey fans counting down the outs until the IIHF U20 World Junior Hockey Championship tournament begins tomorrow….   Lol sorry had to throw in some Canadian Hockey influence here.. and visions of getting your vintage Mopar out next spring are dancing in the heads of many enthusiasts.
     
    I am sure every Mopar fan made a list of parts they hoped to find under their tree this Christmas and our apologies, if you got an AoK IOU  under your tree this morning for something. Like so many, we continue to be waiting in some cases 9-12 months for things that pre-pandemic took weeks or a month or two.   I do know in 2021 the AoK boys did ship a record amount of stuff to the North Pole this year, subcontracted by Santa for some of those harder to find Mopar items that Santa’s elves have a difficult time to make! Lol
     
    On behalf of the  Asche family; George Jr (who turns 90 in February 2022), his sons George III & Rob, the Kingsbury family; Tim and his son Dan  collectively known as the AoK boys we wish one and all a Very Merry Christmas and a Happy, Prosperous & Healthy New Years!
     
     













  9. timkingsbury
    1st we should start about heating intakes, and to make it easy this is primarily about Chrysler/Dodge/Fargo/Desoto/Plymouth intakes on Flathead (L-Head) engines from the 1930s-1950s and I would also refer you to read my article on multiple carbs.
     
    Chrysler Corporation was building cars and trucks to run 12 months a year and under conditions that range wildly in terms of how hot, how cold the climate was as well as different levels above sea level.    This is going
    To be at a more high-level basis, because clearly a difference between Alaska or the Yukon in January which has been as low as minus 80Ff/62.2C and the average temperature in Florida in January, or even the coldest which was minus 2 degrees Fahrenheit. It was recorded at a Tallahassee station on Feb. 13, 1899      And of course summer time temperatures at either, or out in the desert.
     
    Had Chrysler built engines to operate on nice spring, summer and fall days between 60F/15.5C and 80F/26.5C they would not have created intakes and exhaust setups that they did.  That is just a fact.  That is important because for most vehicle owners reading this, they have a nice car or truck that they primarily use it for 3 seasons and when it’s snowing out or over 100 degrees F it’s not the normal temperature, they are operating in.
     
     
    What Chrysler did come up with for their 4 seasons, all weather engine setup was to bring the exhaust up close to the intake although actually put an asbestos based washer to place in between to provide slight separation of the two.  When the engine is cold or cool there is a flap in the exhaust cavity connected to the intake that is in an open position, allowing a heat to rise up under the intake where the carb is. That allows the intake to quickly warm up and help the engine at start up and with the engine “warms up”.  I could go into the scientific pieces behind that, but lets just leave it at that.
     
    When the exhaust reaches a certain temperature there is a coil spring which the heat effects the spring and the flap moves from the open, to the closed position, thus lowering the amount of heat going directly to the intake. This actually happens relatively quickly under the temperature ranges I described earlier and even in temperatures well below that down to freezing, it still closes relatively quick and most certainly well before the engine’s water/antifreeze temperature reaches the point where a thermostat would open. This fact become important later on in this discussion.
     
    It is very effective although 60-90 years after they came from the factory, they are often found with the coil spring gone or ceased up leaving that flap in some position between wide open and closed.  If it’s closed that actually is far better than wide open.
     
    The reason being if it remains wide open after the engine is warmed up, gets into the 165-180f range continuing to toss a lot of heat at the intake will
    Actually, change the fuel/air mixture and not for the better and when you turn off the vehicle and then restart it after just a few minutes you may encounter what is often referred to as “fuel percolating”
     
    In winter condition and certainly in the far north in the winter, you may know or have heard of people putting cardboard or shutters in front of radiators and the reason they do that is to reduce the amount of air going through a rad and therefore slow down the cooling efficiency of the system. Even with this in place to try and bring the engine temperature up quicker and of course get it so the heater in the cab of the vehicle is working, that flap helping to warm up the intake shuts of fairly quickly.  That too will be important later on.
     
    To add a little wrinkle into this discussion Chrysler actually created a factory dual intake and dual exhaust for big trucks, which often times were designed as winter plow trucks and they never had any such flaps that turn and off the exhaust heat under the intake.  What they did was use a different metal allow which had aluminum as the base element in an equalizer tube and intake which both drew heat during start up.
     
    A side note here that many may not realize, the alloy the intakes were made of by Chrysler for single carb intakes changed with the metallurgy over, with things changing a great deal from preww2 and post WW2. One of the reasons was at higher elevations in the heat of the summer cast iron intakes can actually freeze up or frost up with a “refrigeration effect”.   That is something Chrysler lead the industry in, while GM/Chevrolet   had intakes decades later with this “freeze up” or frosting effect.    It is why in my opinion the leading reason why one of the big pushers of water heating intakes comes from the GM world and their experience is limited if any with Flathead Mopar intakes and operation.
     
    Now let’s shift to the aftermarket arena and almost from the start, running multiple carbs to better balance fuel distribution and of course dual exhaust to better equalize back pressure.
     
    A could time to suggest reading my piece on multiple carbs.   You will also see that - no, multiple carbs are not just for racing or super high performance.  You can increase fuel economy and make an engine for more efficient with multiple carbs/
     
     
    www.p15-d24.com/blogs/entry/118-single-carb-intake-dual-carb-intake-triple-carb-intake-why-not-more
     
     
    So now that you hopefully have read about multiple carbs and realize while yes if you were building a race engine you would want multiple carbs but if you can afford the additional carbs just the pure increase in fuel efficiency makes the modification worthwhile.
     
    Now let’s talk about the Elephant in the room, you have decided to run an aftermarket multiple carb intake.       Some in the past seemed to have water heating on the outside of the intakes, while other didn’t.    Edmunds had water heating and then dropped it in their late manifold for Mopar’s how come?
     
    Then the later created manifolds (post 2000) don’t seem to have water heating, like the AoK intakes. Was that because they are just for racing?
     
    The answer to that question is absolutely not, but clearly there is more to that that just No!
     
    I will explain why shortly and no, it wasn’t because we forgot about heating the intake or because it would cost more.   If it had been the better thing to do, we would have done it in a New York minute!  In fact, we designed both our AoK intakes for both heating of the intake and utilizing some very high-tech metallurgy that actually helps with the both overheating and with things like the frosting or freezing situation that Chevys ran/run into.
     
    Let’s start with the “really cold” outside and below 0F which of course water freezes are 32 F or 0C.  Now this isn’t in the range I described earlier but let’s start here.
     
    You start up your car, likely need to use a choke to get the car to start and you have an aftermarket intake that doesn’t have a connection to the exhaust. What happens. Depending on how close the intake is to that exhaust, and what the intake is made from, there will be heat coming off the exhaust that will rise and provide heat on to the intake.  Interestingly with the exhaust running under all of the intake will provide an even distribution of heat where on the original single carb setup you get more heat hitting the middle but of course that is where the 1 carb sits.   On your multiple carb
    Setup tossing the heat just to the middle of the intake isn’t as effective.
     
    In the case of most of the aftermarket aluminum intakes, even the early ones they actually will warm up fairly quick.  Certainly, faster than cast iron.  The later intakes like the later generation Edmunds actually changed their aluminum mixture so that over the longer term the intake didn’t deteriorate and they actually found that mixture helped conduct heat from the exhaust quicker.
     
    But back to its “really cold” and well wouldn’t having water/antifreeze going beside the intake help warm it up?
     
    The temperature of the water/antifreeze (lets call liquid) is actually below freeze and only because off the magic of antifreeze or “colligative properties in action” that the water/antifreeze isn’t frozen.  We start up the engine and while we are getting heat coming from the exhaust warming up the intake, guess what, liquid being so cold actually draws heat from the intake.   Here is where the elephant has basically **** in the middle of the room.  Faster than your exhaust he can heat up the intake, the liquid is drawing heat away from the intake and worse when this liquid is just running along the outside, it becomes a “heat sync” changing the temperature on the outside of the intake compared to the inside of the intake.   Run that water on the underside and it becomes and even more efficient heat sync drawing more heat from the intake.
     
    In fact, by the time the engines liquid temperature has reached a point where it might actually help warm the intake, the engine would already be warmed up and running well.    
     
    Now let’s move to where the thermostat opens because the engine is 160F – 185F and you are still running the liquid to the outside of the intake and guess what, you are actually introducing more heat to the intake when it doesn’t need it. As well you still
    have the added issue of your changing the part of the intake that has the “liquid” flowing by its vs the rest of the intake.  That has a negative impact on the air/fuel mixture so unless you have a way of shutting off the flowing of the liquid you have a problem when the engine is hot, a problem that is even worse when the outside temperature is summer time hot.
     
    Even if you can figure out a way to shut of the flow of liquid going by the intake when it’s too cold or too hot which will be a big challenge, by the time the liquid is the temperature you were looking for to help heat the intake, the engine is already running well.
     
    Now in the past, provided that information, the “unnamed GM engineering guy” eventually came back with – “the other reason you want hot water running by your intake is to stuff it from icing up in the summer”.
     
    Well, if you’re running a GM with the cast iron intake, I’m not sure.  nor to be honest
    do I care although the heating the intake with antifreeze/water in the cold concept, goes down the drain really quick because running cold liquid by, even a cast iron intake still has the heat sync issue?
     
    For a factory intake or any of the aftermarket intakes I have seen the metallurgy is such and the proximity of the exhaust to the intake is such that there is no freeze up or frosting of the intake that we have ever seen.     Even at higher elevations where its more of a potential to be an issue I know of several guys running late generation Edmunds intakes and not having an issue.
     
    On our AoK intakes we used modern metallurgy magic and introduced a lot of elements that were not used in the 30s, 40s, 50s, or even the 60s and 70s.  One of those is silicon. This modern alloy mixture actually helps both better utilize heat coming from the exhaust at start up, but actually repels heat when the intake reaches a certain temperature range and when it encounters conditions that will definitely see the GM ice up in the summer, the AoK intakes metallurgy makeup actually utilizes the constant exhaust heat and not only does frost up like a Chevy. lol. but actually, helps the fuel/air mix better because we have casted in end caps which promote swirl and the heat hitting the intake provides a stable environment for that to happen.   They are not flathead side valve engines with 3 ports feeding 6 intake ports but even modern intakes feeding overhead valve and overhead cam 4cylinder to v8 to v10 engines are not running water/antifreeze beside or through the intake, oh and even GM has changed the mixture of metals from the cast iron mixture they used long ago.
     
      
    Now if you happen to have an old intake on your Mopar with a single carb on it, and you can’t turn the shaft that turns the flap or the spring steel is long gone and we have no idea whether the flap is open or closed, taking off the exhaust and closing off the gap would be a really good idea.    You can buy a phenolic washer to go between the intake and carb to help stop the “percolating effect” although blocking it off or welding it shut would be a better
     
    Side topic – antifreeze and running it in an engine.
     
    REAL WORLD APPLICATION
     Antifreeze is the perfect example of colligative properties in action.  Antifreeze is a mixture of water and ethylene glycol.  The ethylene glycol is the solute.  Cars typically have water in their engines to keep them cool, but if the weather outside gets below freezing, the water would freeze, expand, and crack the engine.  By using antifreeze, the freezing point is lowered and the cars are able to withstand a lower outside temperature before the engines are ruined. 
     
     

    The purpose of antifreeze is to prevent a rigid enclosure from bursting due to expansion when water freezes. Water usually freezes at about 0˚C or 32˚F, but when antifreeze is added to it that changes to being able to freeze at about -50˚F. It actually takes a long time for the antifreeze to freeze.
     

    Herein, can you freeze antifreeze?
    The name “antifreeze” might trick you into thinking the coolant cannot freeze at all. But in actuality, pure antifreeze, which is ethylene glycol, will freeze between zero and minus five degrees Fahrenheit. Only by mixing antifreeze with water can you lower that freezing point.
    Additionally, does antifreeze expand when frozen? Water is a pretty effective coolant, but if it freezes, it can expand enough to burst the rigid enclosure of an engine or electronic. To avoid icy explosions every time the temperature dips below freezing, we use antifreeze to change the water into a different chemical solution with a lower freezing point.
    Additionally, what temp does coolant freeze?
    There comes a point, however, where even antifreeze can't protect from a freeze. At -36 degrees Fahrenheit (that's -38 degrees Celsius), antifreeze and coolant will start to solidify, making it very difficult for your engine to turn over.
  10. timkingsbury

    Tim's winner of the #1 performance item for the Mopar flathead engine - Pistons and Rods

    By timkingsbury,


    new product introduction - custom rods and pistons
    Folks - Im excited to be able to share Tony Smith  big announcement    A key member of the Montana Dodge Boys involved in multiple land speed records.   MONTANA DODGE BOYS VINTAGE LANDSPEED RACING - Home (fastfourspecial.com)   As many know my family and friends have been known to dabble in high performance Chryslers (Desoto, Dodge, Plymouth, Fargo) engines and while the Kingsbury side of AoK racing is more 25 1/2" motor based, the Asche side of AoK racing is heavily into the 23 1/2" USA platform motors as well as the 25 1/2" Canadian motors.   Im my opinion  in the last 30 year our AoK intakes start the top 3 Performance Items to come to the sport in the last 60+ years  and #3 best performance itens is the  best intakes you could buy.   Then Peter (Pedro)  Hendrickson  the Godfather of Dodge Fast Fours, took an aftermarket head and took it to a new level for both the 23 1/2" and 25 1/2" motors to be in my mind the #2 best performance item to improve the motors with his Edgy Aluminum heads.    Im excited to share what I think is the latest of the big three and the #1 best performance item available to improve the Chrysler Flathead Platform.   For now Tony Smith is coming to market with a 23 1/2" rod and piston platform. Having reviewed what he has spearheaded to bring to market, I am confident if Walter Chrysler and all his best and brightest were alive today, they would be giving a standing ovation for this development.   If your looking to take your 23 1/2" flathead Plymouth/Dodge engine to the next level in performance or even want to build a long term, durable and efficient motor this is something you want to look at closely.   One final comment from me before I introduce the star of this blog post -  It takes demand for a  quantity of customers wanting them now, to bring this type of product to market. Our AoK intakes or Peter's Edgy Aluminum heads sold out fast and currently are not available. Both of us get inquiries regularly from customers wishing they had bought them.   The lesson is, Tony is coming to market with the 23 1/2" rod and pistons packages and if, there is demand, Im sure he would do the same for the 25 1/2" platform.   But this is not something to "screen print" and save for future reference a few years from now. This is one of those things I would strongly suggest you jump on while you can.   And now...  as I stand and applaud yelling -   Well done  Tony well done   Let me introduce for those who dont know him,  Tony Smith !   Contact information:   tonymontana357@hotmail.com www.facebook.com/thefreewheelingtonysmith   **New Product Alert!**   After over 6 months working with CP/Carrillo I can now offer a wholly modern piston and rod combo for the 230 cubic inch Mopar flathead 6's! Custom forged extra long Carrillo rods mate to very short CP pistons built on their top of the line X-forging. Smaller diameter and much shorter tool steel pins and thin modern rings round out the package and contribute to the 3/4 of a pound (346 grams) weight savings per cylinder vs. factory rods and cast pistons! Loads on the bearings and crank will be substantially reduced with this combination while increasing reliability, power limit, and RPM potential.    Crowns are coated with a ceramic heat rejection coating which lowers piston temperature, helps prevent detonation, and increases combustion efficiency.   Skirts are coated with a moly dry film which reduces friction and protects the skirt in events of marginal lubrication such as dry starts or high temperature operation.   As the pistons are custom they can be ordered in many different oversizes, the only limitation is ring availability.   Cost is $4450. $1000 non-refundable deposit is required.   Remaining balance due at shipping.   Lead time varies but expect to wait several months for these custom parts to be made. A lead time estimate will be provided when the purchase is made.   I have received multiple inquires regarding making these for 25" engines, primarily the 265. I would be happy to offer a similar rod/piston combo for those engines. Expect the price to be within the same ballpark but with design time the first set will likely take 6+ months to deliver.     New CP piston built on their top-of-the-line X forging, modern thin low drag rings, and a very short smaller diameter pin compared to the old school forged piston and ring set.    The Crowns are coated with a ceramic heat rejection coating which lowers piston temperature, helps prevent detonation, and increases combustion efficiency. Skirts are coated with a moly dry film which reduces friction and protects the skirt in events of marginal lubrication such as dry starts or high temperature operation.     Custom extra long Carrillo rod allows the compression height to be dramatically shortened.       Factory rod (835 grams) compared to the extra long Carrillo rod (736 grams).     FEA combined with modern machining makes the extra long Carrillo rod 100 grams lighter yet stronger than the factory rod.     My new piston and rod combo weighs in at 1099 grams with pin, rings, and clips. That's 346 grams lighter than factory parts! Substantially lighter yet substantially stronger.    
  11. timkingsbury
    ·        
    ·       For Decades I have listened to people talk about Flathead Mopar 6 Cylinder Engines in terms of intakes, what is the best carb configuration for their particular situation.   
     
    Discussions on putting two carbs and those who claim to be sure that is too much carburation or that it will use to much fuel. Then every once in a while the discussion of 3 carbs comes up, and that almost always sparks the debate on how it would take a race motor to need it, or how the engine will bog, or run poorly.   In the last 20 years with a good friend of the AoK boys coming across a huge stash of 2 barrel carter weber carbs which were designed for slant six engines, the discussion on utilizing a 2 barrel instead of two singles comes up.
     
    I just smile, but then I know that when the stash of 2 barrel carter webers were found, its finder  put them on his website as a carb for a flathead mopar.  Its amazing how a market can be created and how quickly – “this is the way to go” spreads like rapid fire, without as much as any background check into something.
     
    But 1st, let me go back to the 1st time I heard the discussion on multiple carbs vs a single multi-barrel carb, or  put another way, comparing that “old technology carter ball and ball vs a modern 4 barrel carb”..
     
    It was about 45 Years ago, when I 1st  heard someone in a conversation with my Grandfather and my Dad, suggesting they knew a lot about Flathead Mopars and were  sporting a 4 barrel carb on a homemade intake.
    This gentleman had played with flathead Ford v8s and had came across a Dodge 2 door sedan from the mid-50s.  He was suggesting he had built the ultimate flathead Chrysler Engine and he was one of those guys that whatever he had at the moment was just the best and the only way to go. 
    Well after my Dad explained he had far from the ultimate flathead Chrysler, and that his wife’s daily driver (my Mom) was good enough to kick his ass, Dad pulled out my Mom's pickup.  It was sporting a bored out 265, with a cam, a factory dual intake and exhaust with a pair of carter ball and balls, and an a833 4 speed tranny.  After a little bit of fun that really wasn't much of a contest, licking his wounds sort of speak, Mr "Ultimate Flathead Chrysler" started down the road of excuses when Grandfather shook his head and cut him off at the pass.
     
     Grandfather like my Dad were automotive Engineers, and Grandfather literally knew more about Chrysler Flatheads than any person alive. Given he saw the very 1st flathead roll of the line in Windsor, Ontario Canada in 1935 and saw the last block cast in 1959, he had some pretty good credentials to give a lecture.
    What is explained in a few minutes was not only how the flathead engine worked, but why the engine this gentleman had came with only 1 carb failed to perform.
    Most think that 1 carb was put on the engine and that it has sufficient carburation for the engine, and if it needed more, Chrysler Engineers would have put more on.
     
    On a basic level that is true, but what engineering was building was an engine to a specific HP, torque  and fuel consumption target and not to get the most out of the engine, make it as efficient as possible or even have it run to anything close to 100% optimum performance. 
    By Optimum  performance I am not talking maximum  hp or maximum rpm or optimum fuel mileage on a vehicle.
     
    Grandfather then explained that in fact when Chrysler was faced with the need to meet a 5 ton truck specification for dump/plow trucks asked for by Canadian Municipalities during the winter of 1950, that the requirement  had  filtered to engineering in late 1950. They  developed the 265 ci motor which was 3 7/16" bore and 4 3/4" stroke and have dual carbs and dual exhaust on them, which was what was in Mom’s pickup.
     Few realize that that engine actually had more hp than any other engine on the market.  I will attach the picture of the poster that was on Grandfathers office at the time.  I gave it to George Asche Jr years ago.   In any case you can see the hot v8 mopar had in 1952 was 133 hp and the flathead 6 had more hp. As an aside Grandfather with the cam grind out of the 1952 Chrysler that engine exceeded 150 hp at the time, but given the time, energy and money that have been invested in the new Hemi v8 that was never going to see the light of day on any marketing information.
    That engine and the fact it had a factory intake, immediately became a stock car favorite in the 1952 season, when Mopar dominated stock car racing everywhere it landed.
    In any case Chrysler didn't just put on a second carb on it because they needed more carburation.  By then Chrysler already had Carter building Ball and Ball carbs from 85cfm -  425 cfm each and we now know they had a 625 cfm carter ball and ball single barrel carb if they needed it.
    The reason for two was the basic issue, some would call flaw, but Grandfather  would call basic restriction to taking the engine to the next level.  I say that folding back to the earlier point that Chrysler was building engine to a spec of "x" hp, "y" torque and "z" fuel consumption.
     
    The flathead 6 build by Chrysler has 3 Siamese intake ports,  each of which feed two cylinders.  Setting aside the exhaust for a second, and keeping in mind that an engine is really just a giant vacuum pump, putting 1 carb in the middle of the block, basically over the middle intake port feeding cylinders 3 and 4, means that if all cylinders are the same in compression ratio and ability to create vacuum and suck in a fuel mixture coming from the carb, then cylinder 3 and 4 are going to get more fuel than the intake ports feeding cylinders 1 and 2   or 5 and 6.   Yes Chrysler made intake modifications to help that, but they again were not trying to make the perfect engine, just have it meet specs required.
    As  a little aside if your look at intakes from the 1930s through to the 50s you will notice Chrysler Engineers raised the level of the carb. With the Dual Carb truck intake it also was raised further with governors placed under the carbs.   The height of the carb mounting above the intake posts can easily be seen to rise from the 1930s to the 1950s. 
    Its also why if your look at some of the aftermarket dual intakes made in the 30s and compare them to say the 3rd generation Edmunds in the 50s you will notice a huge difference in height. The raising of the carbs and providing a smoother run from carb to the intake ports saw huge benefits in performance. Of course maybe buried in the story is the fact that early intake was designed for a marine application where quick rev was far more the desired trait than was torque.   When the intake was moved to an automotive application you would find a quick rev with the clutch engaged, but disengaged there is a significant loss in torque and it will actually burn more fuel than a single carb.
     
    But back to my story, if we now add the exhaust component into your stock Mopar flathead (or L-head)  which depending on what year engine and what vehicle,  has the single exhaust exiting at one of a few  different locations. For this discussion lets  say it exits at the back as does the post ww2 cars.     What you find is as the cylinders push out exhaust there is almost no restriction or back pressure at cylinders 5 and 6,  but there is a great deal of back pressure at cylinders 1 and 2.   
     
    So here we have the most back pressure making it tough to push away the exhaust and actually the front intake port receiving the least amount of fuel. 
    While the engine meets specs with no problem, its clear that if you can balance the exhaust, by having 3 exhaust cylinders exit through 1 exhaust pipe and the other three through a 2nd pipe, you can better balance the exhaust back pressure.  We sort of glossed over the fact that while there are only 3 intake ports, each cylinder does have its own exhaust port.   Something that changed with the introduction of the slant 6, which had  6 equal intake runners each feeding a cylinder.
     
    Back to the flathead,  if we can better distribute fuel to balance the opportunity for each of the 3 Siamese ports to get fuel, then the engine will run more efficiently.   
    So if you were to take a big block 25 1/2" engine, and anyone of them, not just the 265 and put the factory dual carb and dual exhaust setup on it and then put on the appropriate carter ball and ball carb on it, it will gain hp, torque and improved fuel mileage.  The reason is it runs more efficient.  The same takes place with the 23 1/2" USA small block which has the same intake and exhaust configuration, although slightly smaller ports.
     
    If you take it one step further,  putting 1 carb on top of each intake port,  you can provide the optimum amount of fuel efficiency for the engine.
    Back to our 4 barrel friend,  putting on a large carb  just  provides a further opportunity to over fuel the center siamese intake port.  When he hammered the throttle it was actually not able to burn all of the fuel in the middle two cylinders and was “bogging” ,until it could gain enough RPM to use some of the fuel.   
    When he was running against Mom’s pickup which had more balanced back pressure, and a better distribution of fuel he had no chance even if the engines were internally the same. Of course they weren't but that is another story. 
    Years later when we created the AoK triple intake, we placed the first intake on  an almost rock stock 201 ci motor.  It had been rebuilt stock, although required to be bored out 10 thou to clean up cylinders. Beyond that it was a stock cam, intakes etc.  With 3 of the smallest CFM carter ball and ball carbs on board and headers made from a stock exhaust systems, the car ran smoother, had better acceleration and  got 6 miles per gallon better highway mileage over the single carb and single exhaust.    In the end, it is just a myth that you need some bored out, cammed up engine for 2 carbs and a full race motor for 3 carbs.
    The reason why Chrysler didn't run 3 carbs was simple. 1) The cost of 3 carbs was no inconsequential  2) They could meet the HP, Torque and Fuel useage targets with 1 carb.  The exception was when there was a time window where the dual carb, dual exhaust 265 ci motor was released, but with overhead valve v8s and Hemi's coming shortly after the multiple carb flathead life-cycle was short lived.
     
    There is a bit more it than that. I have glossed over a bunch of the engineering parts of why you don't just put a carb directly to each intake port with no equalization tube, but I am sure you get the drift.
    Unlike a v8 where you might try and make carbs progressive because your feeding a intake plenum that equally or close to equally feeding all 8 cylinders, the flathead engine has 3 intake ports each feeding 2 cylinders so progressive carbs just are not effective.  On the flathead Mopar, with either 2 or 3 carbs you want them to produce the exact same fuel to feed each of the Siamese ports exactly the same. Its not progressive in terms of additional barrels or carbs, its progressive by pushing on the gas peddle.
     
     The key is making sure both or all three carbs are identical and that you have linkage that operates all of them exactly the same. 
     
    Its a common misconception that they must be hard to keep synced. We have engines with tens of thousands of miles on them with multiple carbs and are never adjusted.  George Asche's 1929 Desoto that he has owned since 1950 likely has an unbelievable amount of miles on it and likely the  carbs were only touched when George has redone the engine.  I own vehicles with 100,000 + miles on them and the linkage for the dual carbs has never touched. That has a lot to do with just how good Carter Ball and Ball carbs are.. 
    We also get asked  quite often about modifying the block to provide 6 intake ports, or using webers or other carbs, or running fuel injection.   Dad and Grandfather with too much time on their hands, as my Mother would say,  did modify a couple of engines to provide 6 intake ports. There were several  intakes made including one with an 18" runner set on it, one with 6 side draft webers and one with modified hilborn fuel injection.
    At the end of the day, with various levels of success, nothing seems to outperform an Edmunds triple carb intake with riser blocks and 3 matched 1952-56 Truck carbs on them and maybe with some jetting changes.   Of course, since then we have developed a couple of new cam profiles and of course the AoK  triple which utilizes better and modern casting technology, as well as better flow bench testing and computer modelling that neither Chrysler or Eddy Edmunds had.    Have we thought about digging out the 6 intake port block that is still in Dad's shop, well yah we have, but that is another project and a blog entry for another time.
     
     


  12. timkingsbury
    Hi guys -
     
    As covered on the earlier blog entry, we have an adapter kit that allows you to bolt up a modern A833 floor shift overdrive on to your
    stock bell housing. Please read this blog as it covers a lot more details.
     
     
    We recently got a new supplier, and have kept the aircraft grade aluminum. The have drilled and bevelled holes for the flush mount
    and come with the appropriate bevelled bolts, and have threaded holes were required. The truth is we could have done these at a fraction of the
    price if we had done them in steel, but from weight to corrosion, we decided just to do these like the originals we made a number of years ago.
     
    As George Asche says, if we cant make Grade A stuff, I don't want our name (AoK) associated with it! Lol..
     

     

     
    They are in stock right now and they are $140 USD each (adapter plate and bolts) shipped anywhere in the Continental United States.
    A 2nd, 3rd or 4th adapter plate would be $125 USD each and all go in the same box, so you save the shipping on the additional plates by a combined shipment.
     
    And watch folks.. there are different length snots on the a833. and different shifter positions.   We have heard the 1979-80 car is long and shifter near at the back on the
    tranny. That is going to be like the t5, really too far back for a lot of applications.  So measure from your bell housing to your stock floor shift (if you are floor shift)
     
    We got them in this week and have already started shipping adapter plate to those who were on a waiting list. Thanks to those who have been patiently waiting.
     
    ** We have recently been asked if the adapter plate will work on trucks. The 1st response being what truck and what transmission is in it now. We know of conversions that have been made, but they were all in late 50s pickups that had light 3 speeds with car style bell housings.
     
    *** Nov 21 - In addition to the car bell housing there are several bell housing in trucks. We will take 4wd and heavier trucks with 5 speeds out of the mix here. We believe that believes us with 3 bell housing patterns from the late 30s to the late 50s. The one with the car style bell housing , 3 speed column shift our current adapter plate should work.
     
    For the heavier 3 speed or light 4 speed both floor shift, the bell housing is the one at the top of the attached picture, which has 2 holes equally spaced on the right and left of the bell housing.
     
    For this one we are going to develop adapter plates for.
     
    The other bell housing pattern is the ones at the bottom of the attached picture. It has the 2 bolt holes on the right closer together
    than on the left side. This is for the heavier 4 speeds in heavier trucks. While it looks like you can use our existing adapter plate, by drilling 4 holes, tap them and use our adapter plate, we have not actually tried it. At this point unless there turned out to be a demand for them, we don't intend to make new adapter plates for this bell housing / the heavier trucks at this point.
     

     
    The reason being, we really need to make a minimum of 10 pieces, and to make the price reasonable 25, so unless there
    is a demand we don't anticipate it doesn't make much sense to make them for the heavier trucks.
     
    * Update: The adapter plate is completed for the trucks now.
    Pricing is for the car version,  in the continental United States the adapter kit (plate and bolts) are $140 shipped and truck adapter kits are $150 shipped. Outside of that area cars are $125 + shipping and trucks are $135 + shipping.  If you want 2-4 plates they can be shipped in the same box so you save the shipping on those additional plates.
     
    As usual happy to accept emails or give you a call to discuss.. Let us know if you are interested in either truck version.
     
    Tim
    fargopickupking@yahoo.com
     
    .

  13. timkingsbury

    Happy 89th Birthday to the Chairman of the Board - AoK Racing - George Asche Jr (Born Saturday February 6th 1932)

    By timkingsbury,


    Happy 89th Birthday to the Chairman of the Board - AoK Racing - George Asche Jr (Born Saturday February 6th 1932)
    I thought for  George's 89th Birthday I would let you folks in on a small sliver of his past.   A story I am sure many of you have heard and one I have heard from both George and his Uncle Harry Hein's, the Legendary Stock car driver of Car #90.  Interesting,  my Dad, Eddy Kingsbury who was born less than a handful of days from George's birthday, had long before ever meeting George, heard about an old Desoto Roadster with a Chrysler 6  beating a Hemi Powered  Drag Car at the Flying Mile.   Yes, it is often a very small world!
     
    In any case, lets start... Once Upon a Time, It was  Saturday February 6 1932 and the Toronto Maple Leafs would beat the New York Rangers that night.  It would be preview of the Stanley Cup final where the Leafs would beat the Rangers to win the Stanley Cup.   Also on that day, Walter Chrysler's personal 1932 Chrysler was finished, yes on Saturday and it would be delivered to him on Monday February 8th 1932.
     
    The other important story of the day, came from Pittsburgh Pennsylvania where  George Asche's son and future Flathead Chrysler Legend was born. That of course became his name sake, and known to us today as  George Asche Jr.   Yes a lot of really cool things happened on February 6th 1932!
     
    George Jr would grow up working on Mopar's from an early age and when he was 18 he purchased his 1929 Desoto Roadster which he still owns today. Like George  the Roadster has had an incredible life.  George would build a full race Chrysler 265, bored out 125 thou, the wildest cam of the day, and a 3 carb intake which had just been released by Eddy Edmunds. For the fun of it I will attach a picture of one of those intakes.    It would be 1954 that George and his Uncle, who was even then a Nascar Stock Car racing legend when to Florida for stock car racing.  When they were down there then when over to Daytona Beach, home of the Legendary Flying Mile Drag Race course.  
     
    They were hanging out watching the drag races  and arrived early where there was some testing and tuning taking place which included several guys  wanting "canon fader"  in the other lane as they were testing and tuning their cars for the evenings race.  George's uncle Harry Hein's was egging George on to try and get his race out there and before George knew it, Harry had arranged a race against one of the track stars who was driving a full blown drag car with a Chrysler 331 Hemi. While the dual 4 barrel wouldn't be seen until the 1955 Chrysler 300 the owner of the car clearly had connections as they were running two 4 barrel carbs.   
     
    George pulled the Desoto down on the beach and got in line beside paired beside the hemi. When their turn came, they rolled on to the track and started towards the starter.  The flying mile being on the beach, both cars drive up side by side and if the starter feels they are both close to even, he drops the flag and the race is on.  George got a little ahead of the hemi,, when he shifted into 2nd, but the hemi caught right up to him and when they got to the starter, he dropped the flag and the race was on.
     
    George  didn't have the horsepower the Hemi did, but he did have lots of torque and a secret weapon which was a 1940 2nd gear and cluster, known as a "fast second"  along with his tranny being a Plymouth r10g1 3 speed with overdrive.   That combination gave George the edge right after the starter gave them the go,  George nailed the throttle and got a car length jump immediately. George took  the engine up to 5 grand and speed shifted it into 3rd.  The hemi was still a car length behind with the finish line coming up, but the Hemi was coming on  hard.  As the crossed the line the crowd was on their feet trying to see whose car cross the line 1st as it looked from the starting line to Harry that it was just too close to call.
     
    That didn't last long, as the winner was declared as the 29 Desoto Roadster.   Then all of a sudden, everyone wanted to race George.  He had just knocked off the reining "King of the Hill"  and when he got back being a Gentleman he told the crowd that they started off fair and square, the Desoto got the jump on him and he just couldn't rein him in by the finish line.
     
    That would be the 1st race of a very memorable evening of racing.  Racing where George would take on everything from Lincoln v10s to a Jaguar with a v12. From dragsters to  hot rod engines on  chassis with almost no body on the car.  Strictly Flying Mile race cars.       Harry told me the toughest race George had  was against the British Jaguar.  George got the jump at the starters flag by about a 1/2 a car. and the two cars looked like they were welded together has they went down the track. George said he saw the Jaguars lights lift several times and he could hear the engine screaming but neither he or the Jag gained an inch on each other.
     
    At the end of the evening George remained undefeated with a top speed of 142 mph across the mile course.   George would be just 22 years old as the Champion "King of the Hill" for the Friday night Drag Races.
     
    That would be the start of George being known for building  performance engines,   performance transmissions, and performance cars.   George would soon become his uncle Harry's engine builder and  with Harry's driving skills and George's engine building  Harry would go on to a Nascar Hall of Fame career.      
     
    Now 67 years since George and his 1929 Desoto became part of the  history of the Legendary Flying Mile Drag Racing on Daytona Beach, George was just this week building another high performance Chrysler Flathead Engine.  He has also been busy rebuilding carb and creating linkage for  our last round of 
     
    Of course the Covid10 Pandemic  has put a damper on what normally would be a big birthday celebration.  Of course we certainly have February 6 2022 marked on the calendar, where God wiling,  we will be celebrating George's 90th Birthday.
     
    Oh and if you have a moment, and a decent Long Distance plan,    George's number is  814-354-2621  and Im sure he would get a smile if you called him and said - Happy Birthday George!
     
     







  14. timkingsbury

    The Worlds Greatest Intakes - AoK

    By timkingsbury,


    World's Greatest Intake - AoK Last run Last Call
    Hi folks - 
     
    The good news folks, is that the AoK Boys will be making another run of our AoK Intakes;
     
    The bad news is this will likely the last run we do...
     
    More at the end of this note, but as requested by many, a look back at how the intakes came to be...
     
     
    It was over 20 years ago that  George Asche Jr and Eddy Kingsbury (both Feb 1932 babies)  we hanging out at Chrysler Carlisle, or The All Chrysler Nationals.   Along with George's son Rob and
    Ed's Son Tim,  there was a few trips down memory lane from  George's 142 mph run in 1954 on Daytona Beach in the Flying Mile to Eddy building a Legendary Top Fuel Engine that would Rock
    the World setting the 1st of many World Record runs, to  Tim's 1971 Challenger that he and his Two Grandfathers would  build, for Tim to Campaign in what would be the Pro Stock division and leaving behind all time Track Records at more than 1 strip.  Of course having a Legendary Chrysler Engineer as a Grandfather whose best friends ranged from Eddy Edmunds to Al Sharp never hurts  a build either.
     
    It would be during the "Bull Session"  that idea of building a 1/4 mile dragster was hatched.  During the next few hours every body style was discussed and of course what type of power plant would
    it have was a key topic.  Sure Eddy could  go into the shop and go crazy on some Top Fuel Hemi monster, but that just seemed to be a case of "same old same old".  
     
    Of course  it didnt take long before the conversation swung to - "I wonder how much power we could make in a Chrysler Flathead....    and....  what are the things we would need that we really dont have access to  or potentially have never been made.
     
    The big 3 items became -   1) A wild cam with lots of torque, lots of rev and lots of power.
                                                     2)  Light weight top fuel grade pistons with modern rings
                                                     3)  A few delivery system....   lol   An Intake
     
    The 1st one, well that  became a case of digging into the Chrysler experimental archives, pulling out the Asche archives ,   put everything in a blender, pour it over ice, do a bit of tweaking and well
    a Big Ass Wild Cam was born.  #2, well that is call - 1-800 ask Shirley Muldowney for a set of .125 over bore Venola Top Fuel grade coated pistons and Plasma Moly Rings.
     
    The 3rd, well that would take a bit of work.  1st we looked at, flowed and tested  a huge variety of intakes. From  triple carb intakes from the Legend Eddy Edmunds, to other after market intakes, to over a dozen custom intakes, to fuel injection, hell we pulled out turbo and blower intakes that were squirrelled away in the AoK archives  and over 2000 man hours later we had an encyclopedia of 
    fuel delivery systems.   A few times we circled back to Eddy Edmunds - "Edmunds Racing"   Triple intake and a one off intake that was made at the Chrysler Engine Plant in Windsor in the early 1950s.
    Next a good friend of Tim's that he went to School with who would be known of the best modern intake designers  alive today, was talked into,  or conned into helping so that we could play the game of -"What would Eddy Edmunds and/or Tim's Grandfather have created if they had modern design, testing, simulation and casting technology".
     
    Out of all of that and several alpha and beta versions, we created 10 -  AoK Racing triple carb intakes.
     
    Now to be very honest, there was never any intention for any of these to ever leave the Kingsbury or Asche Families.
     
    It would be while Eddy Kingsbury was playing with one on his "Olde School" flow bench that he speculated what the AoK racing triple would be like on the Family Relic.  That would be a 1936 Fargo pickup which would be one of the 1st 100 trucks to have a new 25 1/2" engines from the Windsor Engine Plant.   Two hundred and one, massive cubic inches or Chrysler flathead..  lol  Ok.. while that engine would sport a forged steel crank balanced to the gram, balanced rods, a pressurized oil system and bearing inserts coated with a new formulation that would eventually be known as Clevite 77 coating, it would lot make 100 hp.   For its day, in 1936 compared to Henry Ford or Chevrolet  it was quite something, but compared to a later 265 ci engine with factory dual carbs and headers, well it was pretty tame.
     
    The 201 ci motor was still rock stock, never bored, stock cam, really as stock as  it gets.  On went an AoK racing triple. Eddy and George had to figure out mounding a pivot point on the intake
    for the pickup, and a  matched set of 3 carbs and a set of headers made from a stock exhaust manifold.    What happened was incredible and honestly I wished both my Grandfathers had been alive to see the results.  The Rock Stock 201 gained 25% more HP to the rear wheels and taking it for a 60 mile trip the fuel economy improved by 7 miles to the gallon.
     
    That was the "Ah hah" moment when it became obvious that the intake was just the most fuel efficient delivery system ever made and what you stacked on top of the triple carb intake obviously
    depended on how many cubic inches of engine,  how many RPMs you were going to be spinning, with how much horsepower and how much torque your producing.
     
    From that point forward, I think 7 of those 10 intakes wound up and engines that were stock, to fairly modest performance engines.  Certainly nothing wild.  The response was through the roof
    positive.  More Power, Better Fuel Mileage,  More Torque and the complaint were simple -  "Why dont you make an AoK intake for the USA 23 1/2" Engine"..
     
    It would be over a decade later when we asked the  Mopar Hobbiest what they would like to see -  a  Triple for the Small Block or a Dual Carb intake. Overwhelmingly the response was
    to great a dual carb intake that took everything learned with the AoK Triple for the 25 1/2" engine and apply it to a dual carb intake for the 23 1/2" engine as well as make it so it can easily be used on car  pre and post WW2 cars as well as trucks.
     
    Tim would take it upon himself to name this AoK intake as the "AoK -  George Asche Jr Limited Edition"  intake.   It was actually not intended to show up until the production intakes
    were rolling out of the foundry, although some how the 1st Sample that arrived for George to look over, had his name on it. 
     
    Since then we made a few runs of the AoK dual carb intake for the 23 1/2" engine and to be honest I have lost count how many runs of the AoK Triple carb intake for the 25 1/2" motor that we
    have made.  I know between the two, they have been in over 50 countries.   In the last few year the foundry which we originally started with, has seen its owner retire and  his business passed 
    on to another. Cost increases from the foundry, need for mold and tooling changes, cost increases to heat treat, cost increases to machine castings, have  moved this from a labor of love project where would shoot to break even to a loss on every intake sold.
     
    We have looked at alternatives for every step along the way to produce intakes and while we have made some changes, both costs and minimum order numbers have increased.
     
    We will be emailing those on our waiting list as well as anyone from here to see if we are within striking distance of the minimum order quantities
     
    The cost of the AoK triple intakes (for the 25 1/2" big block made in Canada)  is going to be $620.00  usd plus shipping.
     
    On the AoK -  George Asche Jr limited edition dual carb intake for the 23 1/2" USA small block they too will be will be $605.00 usd plus shipping.  
     
    * We had hoped with North America being far from hot economies that we would be able to get pricing closer to what it has been in the past, but its just not there.
     
    Everything is up and these are 
      priced so close to cost no one would remotely consider this a business adventure.  It is strictly to give those who have been on a waiting list a long time, plus a few that have had AoK intakes  and want more for a current or future project(s).
     
    Linkage will range  depending upon what is required, but the standard 3 carb linkage with linkage that can be hooked up to linkage coming across the head will be $195.00 and the Dual Carb Linkage with be $175.00   That is stainless linkage hand made by George Asche for Carter Ball and Ball Carbs.
    If you need linkage for a truck or pre-ww2 car you will need to supply a pivot point which is on your original intake for those vehicles.  Carbs, are going to be a problem for us to supply rebuilt carbs.    If you have cores and need them rebuilt we may be able to help but we can not supply carbs for all of the intakes.
     
    * Note: realistically with several suppliers involved in the production of these, some effected by the Coronavirus, the realistic target for shipping should start by the end of March 2021.   For customers wanting linkage or their Carter ball and ball carbs rebuilt and everything mounted and setup it will depend on what linkage George needs to make and/or carbs he needs to rebuild. Obviously if we get them sooner they will be shipped sooner.
     
    If your interested in either and not already on our waiting list, drop us a note and we will  happy to discuss your project(s).
     
    Well can accept USA postal money orders, a check/cheque drawn in a USA or Canadian bank or PayPal (sent as friends and family cash transfer) 
     
     
    Thanks
    Tim Kingsbury and George Asche Jr
    fargopickupking@yahoo.com
     
     
    Attached is pictures of the AoK triple with inboard linkage (across the head)  and for the AoK dual intake for the 23 1/2"  motor, linkage  both on the outboard
     



     













  15. timkingsbury
    All of these intakes are still being manufactured or substantial amounts of new product still exists.
    Offenhauser - still made, available at many suppliers, even the big chains like Summit Racing, and they also
    sell "connection kits" with linkage. These dual carb intakes are for the 201, 217 and 230 USA small block engines.
    http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/ofy-2691/applications
    Fenton - still readily available although I did not see them on the big chains.
    These dual carb intakes are for the 201, 217 and 230 USA small block engines and a couple of new ones I saw for sale had linkage, and instruction sheets included.
    Courtesy of: http://p15-d24.com/u...5770-61farnham/
    A Fenton intake pictured with a home made dual exhaust manifold

    A Fenton Aluminum Head





    Fenton Head Details as well as Fenton Header Instruction Pages
    I will apologize right now as I had these along with a bunch of stuff sent to me
    and I have lost the note as to whom they came from. please drop me
    a note so I can edit in the credit for the find ! Tim





    * Fenton Patterns were sold in a Bankruptcy auction to Al Sharp, so see part 6 which is the Sharp Blog Piece
    Edgy Speed Shop
     
    Dual carb intake for Dodge/Plymouth 201,218 & 230 USA small block engines.
    His casting mounts two, 3 bolt carburetor's such as Stromberg 97's. He also makes Heads for the small
    and big block and I will attach a picture in passing.
    Adapter can be found on ebay to change the two barrel mounts to Carter Ball and Ball carbs as well.
    Earl makes his Cast Finned Aluminum cylinder head for both small blocks (Plymouth/Dodge 23 1/2") and big blocks - Canadian 25 1/2" engines
    * If you have the instruction sheets for anyone these let me know and I will be happy to post them.
     
    In 2018 Earl Eggerton's Edgy products were moved over to the Montana Doge Boys under the banner of Montana Vintage Speed.
     
    On facebook
     
    https://www.facebook.com/MontanaVintageSpeed/
     
    and their website 
     
    http://www.moparmontana.com/?fbclid=IwAR2E9dW5dTjxW0rtycG2A_6hvlAl11k8YVuqPL5UsvvAhCtrAAsMzKCJXf4
     
    They have taken things to the next level and beyond, with a 2nd Generation Head for both the 23 1/2" and the 25 1/2"  mopar flatheads
    Intake wise that has not been a focus to date but is certainly on the horizon as Pedro and the other Montana Dodge boys look to 
    take the Edgy intake to another level.
     
    Dont count out something in tandem with the AoK boys in the future!
     
     
     






  16. timkingsbury
    Originally Posted 29 November 2014 - 09:54 PM
    Howdy Folks -
    As discussed on the forum under various topics, my father Eddy Kingsbury, George Asche, his boys Rob and George III along with a buddy and myself developed a triple carb intake for the Canadian 25 1/2" big block flatheads.
    We used the 50's triple that Eddy Edmunds produced and dramatically improved the flow of the intake as well as made a number of changes to the design to dramatically improve the performance (torque and RPM) over other multiple carb intakes
    .
    We did not develop that intake for commercial purposes, but for use on our rear engine dragster and a couple of personal projects.
    I put the setup on my 1949 Plymouth business coupe (sporting a modified 265 ci motor) and am currently getting ready to put it on a 1956 Fargo pickup.
    If you want to see it in action on my car or the dragster I have uploaded a view video's on youtube.
    https://www.youtube....7YNWI2Rnnvn8rig
    I had mentioned in my post under the tatterfield intake thread that we have thought about doing a dual carb intake for the USA built 23 1/2" block engines.. aka all your P15/D24 cars.
    Well the feedback over the past week has been absolutely unexpected. Heck we have already had 2 guys wanting to send checks
    .
    Today we have decided to proceed with the project! So there will be an AoK Dual Carb intake for the USA 23 1/2" flathead 6 cylinder mopars !
    We basically already have all the research and the majority of testing done when we created our triple for the big block. We have had a number of car guys who are unhappy with the performance of the offy's (lots of rev but looses torque over stock) or other intakes and who are seeing huge prices for vintage Edmunds intakes, ask us to consider making a dual carb setup. We also know with lots of our triples out there to confirm our triple is outperforming the super rare Edmunds triple, that we are confident a dual carb setup would outperform any similar intake ever produced.
    Our big advantage is not only is there better flow and other testing instrumentation available to us today, but foam core casting just allows for a product that could not have been made in the 40's-60's, when all of the dual carb intakes were designed.
    We have spent several hours with our machinist / intake genius, who takes our designs and turns them into reality.
    He will start the core development Monday !
    Things we still have to finalized
    ------------------------------------------
    1) Whether we put a water tube integrated in the intake as Edmunds did with 2 of his versions.
    Note: we know it is not required, there is no measurable performance increase and the carbs don’t ice without it. But the customers are always right on what they want and a number of guys have asked for them. It required another core mold, and will require us or the customer to prep and tap both sides to it can be plumbed.
    2) Whether we put the tabs or a large tab on the outside of the tube so that it can be used for trucks and older mopars. The tabs are drilled and tapped to mount linkage. (I’ve attached a picture of a factory truck intake.)
    3) Whether we put the linkage tabs (like Eddy Edmunds did) on the inside (block side) of the intake or the outside of the carbs. Edmunds started off with none, then went to the inside and the last ones were all on the outside. None of the other intakes even have them.
    The easy answer would be do what all the ones being produced now do which is don’t do anything, but heck the Kingsbury and Asche's never do the easy angle if it is just to avoid work or time to produce a better product !
    4) Finally, what the name will be beside "AoK" lol... I know falls into the minor category.
    Right now it is looking like an AoK dual carb intake, machined, with the truck linkage tab(s)
    We will, as several suggested serialize each intake
    Thanks again for everyone who has sent notes, called us and provided input on the project
    Tim Kingsbury and George Asche
    AoK Racing and Asche Mechanical Distributors
  17. timkingsbury
    Well folks its back from the machine shop and for the last prototype before production it is awesome!
    Here are a couple of pictures.. The intake is designed to be able to accommodate a linkage bar on the inside or outside of
    the intake, as well as a casted section for truck usage, which will double as a spot for a serial number. We will try and early this
    week get an eta on getting the 1st batch, as well as George will make up a set of linkage and we will try and get a shipping
    price for anywhere in the USA. Shipping to other locations we will have to get the shipping estimate on a case by case basis.
     
    Its been a long time coming folks, but it is ever so close !
    Thanks for everyone's interest and patience!
    Tim


  18. timkingsbury
    Finally the AoK George Asche Jr Ltd Edition Intake for the all  23 1/2" USA flathead Mopar engines has been completed and is in production.
    The pictures below has prototype linkage for the 1933-1938 Cars and all trucks and power wagons.
    You may notice that the left carb linkage bar has been cut short, and is not hooked to the left carb. That is strictly for prototype purposes and the production versions have a longer bar  That allows for a linkage bar to come down from each carb to the common rail. It does shows how the serial number and linkage block provides the spot for stock linkage components to be mounted and then integrated with the new AoK linkages. That is critical for the earlier cars and trucks. You will notice for this version we are using the outside "wings"  for  linkage mounts.
    For newer cars where we want the linkage rail mounted on the inside, there are inside  "wings"  that are drilled and the rail is then on the inside wings. The outside block will then just be the serial number plate. Early cars and trucks are different in that they are on the outboard side of the intake, but they also have different connection points for the carbs to the common rail  as compared to later model cars..
    George has the linkage working perfectly for the several different applications.  If you are going to be using this on the truck or older car you would just use your stock brackets and the AoK linkage will just integrate with it, to give you the desired upgrade from the single to dual carbs. Oh yes, and hot debate on the name.. Our original intent was to have the writing read from the passenger side although you may notice it was reversed to be read from the other side.  In the production version, we have got the writing of "AoK George Asche Jr Ltd Ed" turned around and in a different font than the prototype.
    There were a couple of minor changes to the prototype, including making the outboard linkage mounting block slightly bigger, changing the name and a couple of internal items.   Today the 1st batch of production intakes are being poured. That process will continue for the balance of the week, they are heat treated and shipped to us.  We need to have the casted intakes machined, tapped and threaded which should see the 1st intakes ready to ship in the next 4-6 weeks.
    * Dec 3rd note: That casting turned out to be 1 being cast with the slight change talked about above. That one was heat treated and shipped to us. We called back and said why did you just ship us only 1.  The reply, they wanted to be really sure it was correct. They were given the go to cast a production run and more of our Big Block Triples which have been sold out for months. They have no been all cast and are off for heat treating on Monday.
     
    The intake has been a long time coming, even more so given the prototype was completed almost a year and a half ago.
    Now -   down to the brass tacks as my Grandfather would have said -   Cost !

    Feb 8 2017
    Were committed to the pricing for the 1st shipment as we feel customers have waited a long time patiently for the product and that was our original    We will be  repricing them upwards slightly as the development cost and the casting price has escalated well beyond where the estimates were when we started. Just the casting price is up 73%  which is an increase in the price of the aluminum.

    For linkage, if customers want us to make them linkage, it will start at $150 and really depends on what linkage is required.   By that I mean if a customer needs linkage for a 1933 Desoto, and if they don't have the linkage block tab, we can get that piece and will sell it at our cost, but it is a relatively expensive part.  If the customer has theirs and most do, then we will clean theirs up and paint it for them at no extra cost. If its linkage for a  1946-48 Plymouth, then it is very straight forward.

    Built carter ball and ball carbs are  $195.00 each and  the will be Siamese twins, meaning they will be exactly the same in their venture, throttle bore sizing and jetting, with all new kits in them and if a customer buys the entire package, George will mount the carbs, linkage, adjust everything and the customer wont have to pay anything extra for that or the carb gaskets.  * Note if you already ordered your intake with carbs, the price quoted you is still in effect, even though the cost of full rebuild kits just went up significantly.


    Shipping is extra and is at cost, or the customer can use their shipping preference  and if they have an account utilize that.  We don't charge for packing or handling.


    Our address is   George Asche/Tim Kingsbury 1693 fertigs Road,  Fertigs, PA 16364     

    I can be reached directly at Fargopickupking@yahoo.com  and we will accept
    paypal if it is send via family and friends so were not paying the paypal fee as there
    is literally no margin on these 1st batch of intakes.  We will also accept a cheque,  money order or if your
    driving by,  cash!
     
    A few notes:
    1) We will also be receiving a small number of the AoK triple intakes for the Canadian 25 1/2" big blocks. They have been sold out for over a year now so if you were looking for one of those we  will be able to ship finished triples by year end.  .
    2)  Headers made from OEM exhaust manifolds are available for both the USA small blocks and the Canadian big blocks. The last picture is  from my 1949 Plymouth Business coupe which has a Canadian 265 ci motor in it and the AoK Triple. Its the same basic look for either the 23 1/2" small block or 25 1/2" big blocks.
    3)  We now have a source for reproduction GMC (not the Chevy versions with major air restrictions).  You can get replacement air filters for them and they are available in Chrome tops or  Black. The Black versions are $125.00 and Chrome ones are $138.00. You can  see them here in a video posted by Fred Buhay.
    4) The Big Note to be aware of:  We expect to be able to ship finished intakes early next week, but there is not some big pile of built carbs or linkage sets made up and ready to ship and George hand makes every piece of linkage and rebuilds every carb completely from top to bottom.   So if your looking for linkage or carbs or both, on top of an intake, get your order in early as I expect to see a big back log in short order.  To date we have note taken orders or money, but have put people on a waiting list.  Everyone on that waiting list were alerted 48 hours ago and right now 1/2 of the 1st production run has been spoken for.   There is no fear that we will be unable to get people intakes, but the question of when we can supply is potentially a question.
    Finally if you would like us to call you and answer questions about either intake, we are happy to. Just drop me an email to fargopickupking@yahoo.com  with your phone number and when is a good time to contact you and George or I will give you a call.
     
     
     
     
     
     
     

     






     
    below is the AoK triple on my 1949 Plymouth Business Coupe.

  19. timkingsbury
    Howdy Folks -  I thought I would do an update on a few topics.  1st the most important one being my buddy George Asche Jr.  George who was hospitalized a few months ago continues to  be regaining his health at a rate  I think everyone including he himself find remarkable.  I was down last week and helped him build another engine and a bunch of other thing.   He continues to work through a long list of promised work, from engines and over drives, to intake, carbs and linkage.
    The last AoK racing triple intake for the big blocks was finished and shipped out. It is going on a 1937 Chrysler 6 cylinder. A very close to stock engine, with standard pistons, cam and  new undersized bearings. I have enclose a picture of that as well as George finishing off a fresh engine built and  one of the AoK -  George Asche Jr tribute intakes for the USA Small blocks.
    We down to just 1 or 2 of those .
    Next topic, intake updates:  As I have talked earlier, with our good friend Tom ceasing operations we had to move the casting of both the Triples for the Canadian 25 1/2" big  block flathead and the USA 23 1/2" dual carb intakes. We also sadly lost the services of George long time friend Bob Stover who was responsible for the machining of the AoK triples from when we 1st started to make them over a decade ago until God gave him the checkered flag and he passed away. Moving to a new supplier also  saw cost increases.
    We have worked closely with both suppliers as well as looked at other options for having them cast and machined elsewhere.  In the end, we were able to reduce the overall costs, and get the minimum order quantity down to the point that we are going to consider another run of intakes.
     
    Sorry Folks - Both AoK intakes are now sold out.  If you would like to be on a waiting list you can email us at  fargopickupking@yahoo.com
     
    Thanks
    Tim Kingsbury and George Asche Jr
     
     
    Below pictures are the AoK dual and triple intake that are being set up for the pre-WW2 cars ad all trucks, pickups and powerwagons which have linkage going down the intake/exhaust side of the blocks
     
     






  20. timkingsbury
    As suggested by Captain Fred in his blog entry on his 1940 Plymouth build, he wanted something done on cams.
     
    Well, that can be quite a topic, and while you can find all kinds of article on the "inter-web" on how cams work in an engine, my
    goal is to put a Flathead Mopar slant on the topic.
     
    Of course as my Grandfather used to say, an engine is nothing more and a large vacuum pump. Your cam turns lifting up intake
    valves, as pistons are being turned by a crank and that creates a vacuum. The vacuum sucks in whatever is near by into the engine.
    The cam turns a little further, closing the intake valve, we "light a candle" to whatever is in then in the cylinder and after what we hope is a controlled explosion, the cam turns a little further lifting exhaust valves and those pistons coming up push out whatever is left out of the engine..
     
    In the V8 world a great deal of people used to think that making power, aside from the "no replacement for displacement" concept was putting in a wild cam. As time went by in the racing world, while the cam was important, we know it is the heads that are a much bigger factor to the V8 world. Sure superchargers or turbo chargers, trying to jam more stuff into the cylinder and the type of fuel you use for your controlled explosion also became a big factor, but in the world of cam vs heads it is the heads that lead that world.
     
    In the flathead Mopar world, fuel isn't entering via the heads, and so it is definitely a cam that leads this world over the heads.
     
    Next lets talk about stock lift and duration and even there, Chrysler Corporation made a huge number of cam profiles so the second I toss this out here, its easy for someone to say - "my stock cam is different" and yes I know that.
     
    But in high level terms, a cam has two major factors and a few lesser factors. Lift and most of the p15-d24s were a 375 lift
    and then duration. Lift is how high the cam lifts the valve from its closed position, and duration is the degrees of the 360 degree circle that it keeps those valves open. In other terms how high we lift the valves and for how long we keep them open, whether intake or exhaust valves.
     
    Again high level - you are limited by how high you can lift the valves in a flathead by the head. Lift the valve too high and it hits the head. On the duration side, there becomes a point where you have kept the valves open too long and it starts to effect the actual vacuum level in your engine. Remember again, a big vacuum pump. as we open and keep open valves we loose the seal on the vacuum. Of course we do that because we want to get and fuel and air mixture into the engine.
     
    The change in duration also does things to the torque curve on your engine, but that is a whole different level of the discussion and I am trying to keep this more on the basic side.
     
    Again in general if we keep the intake valves open longer and lift the intake valves higher, we get the opportunity to get more fuel/air into the engine. More fuel and air, and yes, clearly effected by the compression ratio, the more "bang" when we ignite the mixture with the spark plug firing.
     
    Now, in the cause and effect department, generally as we raise up the valves higher (aka the lift) and hold those valves open longer (increased duration) we tend to change the rpm idle and things become what most of us call "lumpy". In the good old mopar v8 days of the 1970s I am sure lots remember pulling up to the lights with a guy running a "cammed up" motor and it was idling rough, shaking, coughing an weezing and yes that was also how the timing was set, but it was the duration of the cam that was causing that. When the light turned green and they hammered it, assuming the timing was set correctly, the goal was for that high lift cam to allow for a lot more fuel to get into the engine dramatically raising the RPM and turning the lumpy idling engine into a smooth running race engine.
     
    Yes I am isolating and slanting this entire discussion towards cams, when timing can also be a huge factor. No better example being when Big Daddy Don Garlitz was forced to use a 426 hemi after they actually ran out of 392 hemis. He couldn't get the 426 to run as well, and out of frustration he advanced the timing way way beyond what anyone would have thought would work. In fact Don often tells the story that he intended to blow the "blanking" thing up. But as the engine rev'd up that advanced timing suddenly brought out the inner Monster of the 426 Hemi and all of a sudden the 392 Hemi was obsolete in Don's mind!
     
    Back to our cams and remembering that the generation of car cams we are talking about were 375 lift. There are two school of thoughts on creating high performance cams. 1st is to raise the lift gradually and some pretty famous high performance cams raise the lift to 380 an and then increase the duration to 242 degrees. The 2nd is to raise the lift up as extreme as we can and also increase the duration. in the 1950s a pretty famous performance cam used a 400 lift. and 250 degrees of duration.
     
    The other factor without diving into the details to much, is what I call the split. A great deal of cams have the intakes open and the exhaust close at exact same time, but some use a split. So for example an Esky 3/4 miles cam the intake opens intake valves at 20 degrees and closes them at 50 degrees and the exhaust opens at 57 degrees and closes at 13 degrees.
     
    The Schroller full race cam - again a stock car racing - Higher lift and increased duration the Intake - has the intake valves open at 18 degrees and closes at 54 degree. The exhaust opens at 54 degrees and closes at 18 degrees.
     
    If you are using a turbo or a blower, you often want a period of time (number of degrees) in which the intake is close and the exhaust hasn't yet opened, or visaversa.
     
    The age old question is of course - so how much lift can I have before the engine sounds like it is misfiring. Almost always visions
    of those 1970 v8 engines coughing and wheezing are the reason for thing that. In reality the flathead just doesn't really act like a great deal of those badly timed, over cammed engines.. lol The reality is in the flathead world it is more a case of the rpm rises at idle than it is about it sounding like the 1970;s v8.
     
    Of course most want a cam that sounds like it is rock stock, idles like the engine isn't running, but then they want a Top Fuel Monster to come alive when they hit the throttle. That becomes a delicate balance and is always a compromise.
     
    So lets talk extreme. Maybe there is a wilder cam out there, but if there is we have never seen it. Ill keep the origins of this cam a little bit of a mystery, but the cam we use in the Velociraptor is the most extreme cam we know of. I chuckle these days as this phrase that seems to be in vogue again, but decades ago my Grandfather used to refer to a car that had this cam as "The Hot Mess Express".
     
    Today we call if the AoK Velociraptor Grind . It is tough to get it to idle below 2000 rpm and we have with a ton of work have
    actually gotten our dragster to idle around 1800 rpm. It will wind up to North of 7200 rpm. You can run an engine on alcohol and will need 3 carbs and need to shift to 6 exhaust pipes for at least 42", to get it to run properly. Its lift is are you ready, 446 and its duration is 280 degrees. At this point we definitely have issues with vacuum and it would be extremely rough at idle, thus increasing the RPM just
    to get it to idle. For those that figure that isn't possible, by reply is gather up and bring all the cash you can find, because I am happy to say - "How much would you like to bet!".
     
    Here us a link to 3 videos of the Worlds Fastest Dinasour
     
     
     
    Now from the extreme, to lets say a mid-50s truck cam which topped out around 3600 rpm, becomes the topic where many recipe's for
    performance have been made. Some by Chrysler Corporation for everything from cars, to boats, to combines and even Massey Harris 101 Super tractors powered by Chrysler Flatheads. The later were built for high torque and low rpm, which is great for plowing a field, but achieving a high way speed, not so much!
     
    Today I think we have a catalogue of around 25 cam profiles. Of those we have cam patterns that we use , made for about 6 or 7 cams and of those, the number drops down to 3 or 4 for most engine builds. I think right now among the Kingsbury motorized items we have 14 different cams in use. In the Asche fleet of motorized items I am going to say they have 7 different cam profiles. The major difference, lol, yes I have more junk... I have a marine version, several truck versions, a combine, a water pump, a welder, a compressor which actually uses 4 cylinders to run the engine and 2 cylinders to make air, and an engine that used to be in a certain motorcycle.. lol.. Oh and I have an actual cam from a tank engine, but it isn't in an engine. I could make a pattern if someone ever needed one !
     

    For Fred's engine, we used what many call an Esky 3/4 race cam. The 3/4 stands for stock car racing on a 3/4 mile long track.
     
    This is what I today call, a fairly mild cam and we likely sell the most of these. I suspect part of that reason is as I talked about earlier, that people think back to those lumpy, poorly idling v8 engines with wild cams.. The .380 lift cam is going to give Fred 4500 rpm quickly. Its been around a long time and has a quicker rev over stock and was used historically for stock car racing. As you can likely figure out by reading this thread so far, we likely sell the most of these because most guys think they want power..... but..... they want to start it and not hear the engine running or running like a sewing machine. Tons of guys call this cam a race cam.. For me, its far from that. The tech side = 242 degrees of duration and .380 lift
     
    Finally I will end the cam conversation for now, with the cam I am using in my 1949 Plymouth. It is what I call a little lumpy but still very much streetable and no, it is nothing like a 1970s over cammed v8 with bad or good timing..
     
    lol but it is definitely aggressive, with a .435 lift and 258 degrees of duration. This cam was developed from tweeking a full race cam through the 1950s and 1960s and was what Harry Hein #90 (NASCAR hall of fame) used at the end of his career. Harry who is still alive would be the uncle of one George Asche Jr. The intake valves open at 20 degrees and close at 58 degrees, while the exhaust opens at 58 degrees and close at 20 degrees.
     
    Here it is in my 1949, when it was started for the very first time, so its not tuned and its running 47" straight pipes out of the headers. It is a bored our 265 ci  25 1/2" Canadian big block flathead 
     
     
    And here is the same cam in a 230 ci USA 23 1/2" small block 
     
     
    I hope that helps a little Fred, without confusing things too much!
     
    Now what is in that Engine of yours, I can not confirm or deny what was originally put in the engine is what is in it now.. Who knows what happens in the middle of the night in George's shop... Only the shadow, or in this case the 1929 Desoto knows for sure.. lol
  21. timkingsbury
    Ellis - Made intakes for Chrysler Corporation for the Dodge 331, 377 and 413 ci "super big" block truck engine.
    They also made aftermarket intakes for both the USA small block and the Canadian big block 6 cylinder engines.
    This intake is believed to be off a feb 1950 built 377 ci engine which was 4" bore and 5" stroke producing 154 hp at 3000rpm and 330 lbs of torque, 7 main bearing crank.



    Here is an Ellis intake courtesy of http://p15-d24.com/user/296-ralph-d25cpe/
    A nice example of the Canadian 25 1/2" big block - marked "Ellis Dual Power Manifolds" on the side and
    "Dodge" "2 ton" "1 1/2 ton" on the intake runners


     
     
    Here is another nice example of the Canadian 25 1/2" Big Block - " Dual-Power" intake with Carbs
    Photo's courtesy of http://p15-d24.com/user/4694-scotia-steve/
     
     


     
    Attached is a picture of an Ellis dual crab intake for a 23 1/2" USA small block
    Advertisement and Instruction sheets: also to follow. I think I have some filed somewhere.
     
    Thickson - I believe I have seen 3 different Thickson intakes over the years. This was the one I had a picture of. If you look close there are tabs for the linkage on the intake of this example.
    It looks like a Tattersfield influenced intake and I do not know who made which 1st although given it is the later
    Tattersfield that had the linkage tabs, I am thinking the Thickson came after the Tattersfield, but that is just a guess.
    So this one is a work in progress.
     
    McGurk - More known for Chev intakes, however they did make them for the USA small blocks I am told.
    So this one is a work in progress.
    * Note: this is the 5th installment on intakes and the 6th with be on Sharp. After that I can't help thinking there may be others I am not thinking of. So if you have any more examples instruction sheets, advertisement, let me know and I will continue the series.
    As mentioned in the 1st installment my hope is to gather up the information and instruction sheets, maybe any technical stuff that came with them, examples of linkage etc so that eventually it can be moved to the forums technical information section.



  22. timkingsbury
    Well The Monster Lives... again..
     
    As I hinted in past blog entries I knew and know where the legendary Plymouth Motorcycle is. I was in touch with its owner
    Louie Fisher a few years ago after he had acquired the motorcycle along with a buddy from the Dean Hensley estate back in 1992.
     
    They had actually taken it to a couple of antique motorcycle meets in the early 90s and eventually took the big plunge
    to restore it. Recently they have taken the project from a basket case with no viable drivetrain, to the point where I can
    say - "The Monster Lives Again!"
     
    I was excited to see the Legendary Plymouth Reporter - Jim Benjaminson with an updated article on AllPar and with it
    some pretty current pictures.
     
    Here is the link to the article: Enjoy!
     
    http://www.allpar.com/history/plymouth/motorcycle.html
     
     
    If you hadn't read my earlier blog entries on the Worlds Fastest Flathead Motorcycle, here is the link to the 1st parts of the series:
     

    Part 1:
     
    http://p15-d24.com/blog/17/entry-65-as-promised-the-story-of-the-worlds-fastest-flathead…-motorcycle-part-1/
     
    Part 2:
     
    http://p15-d24.com/blog/17/entry-66-as-promised-the-story-of-the-worlds-fastest-flathead…-motorcycle-part-2/
     
    Part 3:
     
    http://p15-d24.com/blog/17/entry-67-as-promised-the-story-of-the-worlds-fastest-flathead…-motorcycle-part-3/
  23. timkingsbury
    3rd part in the series, its for me the Grand Daddy of them all, straight from the Chrysler Engine Factory in Windsor Ontario Canada, factory Dual Carb intake, and factory Dual exhaust which were options on Dodge Trucks. Most believe they were only on 265 ci engines, however that is incorrect. They were available through a factory order on either the 250 or 265 ci motors, and at Dodge truck dealers, they would happily put them on any new truck you wished to put them on.
    There is a local farmer who had a 1953 Fargo 1 ton pickup truck with a 238 ci motor, the dual carb and intake on it and always said he bought it right from Wellington Motors in Guelph Ontario Canada. After his death, his family found the original bill of sale for the truck and there on the bill of sale from the dealership was listed the Dual Carb and Dual Exhaust option, although it was not given an itemized price.
    I believe the reason he did that was he had purchased a heavier Fargo truck with a 265 ci motor for hauling livestock the year prior and when he bought the pickup at the dealership he asked for the same setup as he had on his truck. That is a bit of speculation on my part, however I did have the chance to ask him on a couple of occasions why he had the dual carbs and he would just smile and not really give me an answer.
    For this intake and exhaust I can provide more details as required as the setup is clearly in several Chrysler Manuals that we have,
    Tim
    Here are 3 pictures of a Factory 1952 Dodge Truck Dual Carb Intake and Exhaust that came off of a 4 ton Truck with a 265 ci motor






    Here is the Factory "Chryco" Parts Manual and the page illustrating the explosion view of the Dual Carb Intake and Exhaust




    Below Some Vintage Speed Advertisement and Articles -
    1st up I belief is a page from the 1953 Bell Auto Parts catalog Show a Edmunds finned high compression head for Chrysler, DeSoto, DeSoto and Plymouth....$54
    Courtesy of "Old Mopar fan, Don" who can be found over on HAMB
    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/members/41-c28.10395/
    1953 Bell Auto Parts Catalog - Front Cover


    1953 Bell Auto Parts Catalog - Aftermarket Mopar page


    1953 Bell Auto Parts Catalog - Back Cover


    Courtesy of http://p15-d24.com/user/7710-charleyd/ who scored a copy of the October 1952 Hop Up Magazine, where the
    article which gives a big thumbs up to the Nicson intake and I will put it up under that intake thread as well as here.
    Here is the October 1952 Hop Up Magazine on Hopping up the Plymouth with some really positive endorsement of Nicson








  24. timkingsbury
    Howdy Folks -
    Well the good news is  the new AoK dual carb intakes for the 23 1/2" USA small block flathead Mopars  started going out the door last week.  As well  the AoK triples for the 25 1/2" Canadian Big block flathead Mopars that have been sold out for over a year are also available and  shipping.
     
    More details and what the look like on this blog entry.
    The good and bad news..     Good:    If your on the list for either a dual intake or a triple your covered.    Your intake and if you want linkage,  we will be able to supply them                      
     at the price point discussed.   Bad: well Maybe Bad: If you haven't ordered an AoK dual intake there are 7 left not spoken for and there are 2 AoK triples for the big blocks not spoken for.
    After that, there will be no more at this price point  that is for sure and whether we  have any more made with depend on customer demand.
     
    As well we are now out of Carter Ball and Ball cores to build,  so if you  need George to build you up carbs, as of right now you will need to supply cores.
     
    Final piece of news is that if you order intakes, when paid for they can be shipped in less than a week. If you need linkage as well its up to 3 weeks lead time right now to ship and if you need carbs and haven't already ordered intakes and specified carbs, even with cores the lead time right now is at least 3 months and may be longer..
     
    The super thing is George who just turned 85 is still doing them and is the best there is at doing them. The unfortunate part is George is slowing down and no one anticipated the new AoK intakes taking so long and the overwhelming demand for them and carbs when they were ready.
     
    Now that they are coming out of the machine shop all completed, the shear number is overwhelming so it will take some time ..
     
    George also has 4 Performance engine jobs promised and as of today will not be accepting any further engine rebuilds until further notice.     On r6, r7 r10 Mopar overdrives, we will have to see what George has time for, and what his Sons and I can help out with on that front to be able to give anyone a leadtime.
    As I and many call him, the Flathead Mopar Living Legend  is still going strong, but his ability to work on customer projects outside of the family, will now be very much slowed down.
    I am sure that is not a major surprise to anyone .
     
    Tim Kingsbury
    fargopickupking@yahoo,com
     
     
     
     
     
     
  25. timkingsbury
    I will start this Blog entry off with a cut and paste from an entry I recently posted on the forum.
     
    The preamble:
     
    I am not a fan of the non-mopar t5 transmission conversion. A great deal of those transmissions have gear splits that
    were meant for low horsepower, low torque engines and they just do not match up well to a flathead mopar. The are also in my opinion, a great deal of work to make the conversion. There are many models of the T5 transmission, with several having very little overdrive to them. As some have pointed out, when I posted a chart showing a great deal of the T5 transmissions, in at least one case a member who is a huge t5 supporter, editted his post as his transmission was not what he thought it was.
    That may should like a shot, it isn't meant to be, but what it is really is an illustration that a lot of guys have ventured into the t5 project without realizing what they are in for or what they even have. I do completely understand why so many having went though the conversion process, claim to be happy. They may indeed be, with all the work behind them and in some cases guys are not about to admit that they wished they have never went that route. At least one of those recently posted on the blog here, who was beyond frustrated with the project effort level and the results.
     
    Now having said that, there are some t5 with better splits and more overdrive than others, but given the work effort, the cost and the end product it still wouldn't be my first choice.
     
    The goal:
     
    I wont go into the ramble on why I still prefer the Mopar Overdrive solution, and why for me the 1952-56 R10G Borg Warner overdrive gives you in essence a 6 speed transmission, and concentrate on the pursuit of many. That being a easier to
    find Overdrive transmission that provides you with a decent level over overdrive, with a decent gear split and for many,
    the desire to have a floor shift in their car.
     
    There is also those with earlier (pre-1939) Mopar's that had a floor shift transmission and would like to keep that original cab look, but want an overdrive and cant find one of the floor shift overdrives from the 30's that came from Chrysler/Desoto.
     
    The Solution:
     
    A 1975 - 1987 Aluminum A833 4 Speed Transmission with overdrive.
     
    Yes, the A833 "bullet proof" transmission is the in essence the same transmission as the "cast iron" version of the 60's that went behind the 426 Hemi. Those transmissions tend to be very pricy and 4th is direct drive 1:1 so since were looking for Overdrive, the older cast iron A833 doesn't fit the bill. Although the 1975- 1987 Aluminum A833 certainly does!
     
    The details:
     
    Lets start with for the earlier Plymouth we have to deal with the "X" frame so the A833 becomes a great candidate for this application.
     
    I would use the Aluminum cased a833's 4 speed with overdrive which started part way into 1975 and went thru until mid 1987.
     
    Here is the gear splits:
     
    1st: 3.09:1, 2nd: 1.67:1 3rd: 1:1 4th: 0.73:1 (Trucks used a 0.71:1 fourth)
     
    The overdrive configuration with a 23-spline input appeared in these vehicles:
    o 1975 to 1979 Valiant, Duster, Dart, Scamp, Swinger, Volare, Aspen (3.09:1 ratio first gear)
    o 1975 to 1987 Dodge light-duty pickups and Dodge and Plymouth Vans (3.09:1 ratio first gear)
    o 1977 to 1979 Diplomat and LeBaron (3.09:1 ratio first gear)
     
    The "Coles note" version of what you will need to do and I will mix in the details concerning the "X-Frame" which only becomes relevant in the models from the 1930's. You will be using the original bell housing, not the one that came from the vehicle
    that had your donor A833 4 speed and yes ones like the bell housing in the pickups are large and might leave you
    the impression your on the wrong track.
    You will need and Adapter plate and screws to mount the transmission up to you stock bell housing. You do not
    need to make modifications to your bell housing
     
    * The Adapter plate kits (Plate and screws) are available from AoK. We do not have A833 transmissions for sale
    You will need to change your clutch to fine spline and you will need to make an adjustment to the connection of the A833 transmission to the drive shaft. You can change the yoke on your drive shaft so it will connect up to the new transmission or in many cases this may be the opportunity to put in a modern rear end which will allow you to use a modern driveshaft with the A833 and the new rear end. Will talk about that more in a second.
     
    ** Note: Sept 2015 we sold the last Adapter plate and our Supplier cranks up the price to the point that we are looking for another
    supplier. Will update this blog entry when we have more details.
    Nov 2105 - as covered below, we have got a new supplier and have the adapters and bolts (as a kit) for $125 USD plus
    shipping. That is the price for the next 25 at least and is priced really based on what the cost of the aluminum stock price is.
     


     
     
    You do not need to change your pilot bushing as it is the same as original.
     
    On 1937 – 39 Plymouth cars (with the X-Frame), you can cut bottom of x frame loop off - (half off) to get the transmission in place. Some think it is fine to leave it with the piece of X-Frame taken out, although it is easily to get it back in place so that would be my preference. The the last one I saw done, they made a bracket to put the x frame loop and then fasten the half of the X-Frame back in.
     
    Depending on which A833 transmission you get, you may have to make a minor modification of the bearing retainer. It is the round plate that has 4 bolts holding it on to the tranny.. A couple of the A833's have a longer housing and you need to unbolt it and cut some of the housing off. About an 1” 1/8”,
     
    For the 1937 we recently had a hand in, he used a 1966 dodge cornet rt clutch (10 ½”) and pressure plate that he bought from napa (called a clutch pack), however there are lots of great and inexpensive options there.
     
    You can change the yoke on the drive shaft to hook up to the A833 or change the rear end.
     
    For the 1937 Plymouth project I just mentioned, he put in a 1963-64 Chrysler New York rear end and it fit in perfect. It also had 3” x11” brakes and positraction and a 3:55 rear end ratio which with the a833 gives you 2.59 results as well gave you the emergency brake on the rear axle since you loose the emergency brake drum when you swap out your original transmission.
     
    Here is a handy chart on mopar rear ends that may come in handy depending on your application
     


     
    For the 1937 Plymouth which already had a floor shift, the shifter had to be modified slightly so it came up in the original position. Basically the shifter was modified to move it to the right (passenger side) and then up towards the firewall slightly ,to have it come up the original shifter position. Despite the two bends it shifts perfectly.
     
    If you are putting the A833 in an early pickup the shifter had to be modified to go towards the passanger 3/4" and then towards the firewall 1 1/2 and it shifts perfectly. In the pickup if your interested, when the snow leaves (about july.. lol) I have to go have a better look at the rear end. I cant remember if the drive shaft was modified to put the modern yoke or if the rear end was changed. I do know the A833 came right out of my Dad's 1982 Dodge pickup.
     
    The net in either gives you a floor shift transmission with decent overdrive ratio (0.73:1 or on the Trucks 0.71:1) and decent gear splits!
     
    For cars from the 1940s and 50's you don't have to deal with the "x-frame" so the project is even simpler. In terms of the shifter position coming through the floor, you will have a slightly better starting point than other modern floor shift transmissions, and keep in mind you can modify the shift to bend it towards the passenger if you like or towards the firewall.
     
    Personally in a 1948 Plymouth business coupe, we made no modification left (towards the passenger side) but bent it forward towards the firewall a bit just because for the driver (6 foot 2 inches) that is just where it felt the best. The point being you have a fair amount of flexibility in where you want the shifter to come up through the floor and then bend it to work best for you. For the 1946-48,Plymouth it seem the US cars may have a slightly different back mount with a cross over member being notched for the standard 3 speed. To then accommodate the lower a833 transmission, I am told you have to notch that cross over frame piece slightly to use the adapter and A833 transmission. For the 1948 Canadian Plymouth we did not have that issue.
     
    * Jan 2016 - We have been able to pull stock transmission out of 1946-48, 1949, and 1950 Plymouths made in USA and every
    one would require modification of the cross member as the A833 4 speed being deeper than the stock
    transmission is going to hit the cross member..
     
    Also remember that when you swap out your original transmission and move to any modern transmission, you have to consider what
    your doing for an emergency brake. As I covered above, the change of the rear end to a more modern rear end may solve that problem for you. There other options,
     
    1 such option would be something like - E-Stopp Electric Emergency Brake with Remote Push Button
     
    http://www.estopp.com/
     
    Here is the A833 illustration right from Dodge/Chrysler and then a view angles of a rebuilt tranny.
     










     
    ** Dec 22 2015 - Just to be clear, the A833 adapter plate is for Mopar 833 Aluminum 4 speeds for use in Mopar cars, and was not designed for use with the - 1981 -1986 Chevy/GM Truck Overdrive which I believe is a 833/RPO MY6. We were contacted in May by a customer and in the conversation it became apparent he was considering using a GM version of the transmission and he was told there appears to be a great deal of difference between it and the Mopar version of the A833. It appears he has been able to make modifications and get it to work and we will attempt to get a report from him, but up until now we have had zero experience trying to use
    A833 chevy truck transmissions with this adapter. That doesn't mean that this conversion cant be successful, but it does mean we don't have experience in doing this.
     
    There also appears to be interest in an adapter plate for the lighter truck bell housings, which as of now our adapter plate would be viable only for the 1955 and newer 1/2 tons using the column shift 3 speed and utilize the car style bell housing. The floor shift heavier 3 speed and lighter for speed (top bell housing below) and the heavier 4 speed in the 1 ton and lighter 2wd trucks with heavier 4 speeds that utilize the offset bell housing (bottom bell housing below) will not work with our current adapter plate and an a833 mopar 4 speed.
    Depending on demand we can make adapter plates for either. Let us know if you are interested.
     


     
    Feb 5 2016 -
     
    Well mission accomplished. We now have an adapter plate for the both heavy 3 speed floor shift and light 4 speed bell housings and heavier 4 speed bell housings. Bellow is the truck adapter which works for both, then a picture of it with the car and light 3 speed column shift for tucks, and then a picture of the two truck bell housings that the new adapter plate works with. Price is going to be $135 & shipping for the kit. The kit will be the adapter plate and 4 bolts required to mount the adapter plate to the truck bell housing.
     






     
     
    Bottom line: In the continental United States car adapter plates are $140 shipped and truck adapter platers are $150 shipped. Outside of that area cars are $125 + shipping and trucks are $135 + shipping.
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