55 Fargo

On 9/27/2019 at 1:51 AM, 48Dodger said:

Build it, race it, if you don't win, rebuild it, race it until you win.

Then sort out the good numbers.

To much talking and not enough racing.

Good luck with your build Fargone, enjoying your documentation.

 

48D 

Thats a great idea Tim. In fact you could have your spring tailgate BBQ combined with 1/8 mile drags or circle track race. Even a tractor type pull event!

JohnT53 snd a few other modifieds can see what they can do.

If they dare to rev over 2500 rpm...lol

Francois,  la tete sur le moteur, would have been worth saving...

As mentioned should be an easy swap.

The IND "cam profile", may or may not be an issue, sometimes the cam profile for industrial use, is engineered to provide lower RPM grunt, and a lower redline on total max RPM.

On the head, unless it was cut down a whole lot, most likely not gonna be an issue.

Heck you could use a 218 CDN Long Block head for a big compression increase, the 218 has the smallest CC of the heads on long block engines..

Dodgeb4ya and dpollo offer great insight into these engines. Both have several years of experience under their belts.... 

3 hours ago, HotRodTractor said:

 

I didn't want to embarrass you... but I used to do better burnouts on smooth concrete like that.... with my pedal tractor when I was still wet behind the 

Deleted not relevant to topic

5 hours ago, Merle Coggins said:

Hmm... Those skid marks don’t seem to match the tread pattern on the truck... ? Tire that left the mark had 4 rows of tread blocks. Your Fargo has 

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14 hours ago, HotRodTractor said:

 

I've never mashed the pedal and seen how high she would spin, but jaunts about 4000 RPMs are pretty 

Deleted not relevant to topic

4 hours ago, HotRodTractor said:

Full disclosure - because I wanted to confirm before I posted - I also have an Edgy cam with 260 duration and 0.410" lift. I don't have any other information on it other than that.

Thats fairly tame at .410 lift with 260 duration and good for street driver use.

So you ever Red Line it? You should be good for 4500 to 4800 RPM.

My old tired 228 with stock cam at .375 lift can spin up to 4 grand...lol

Hit 4000 RPM in 3rd at 56 mph, speedo was reading 10 mph too low.

18 hours ago, HotRodTractor said:

 

3.78 First gear, 0.72 OD, 3.54 rear end (Also nearly identical gearing to my world class V6 Camaro box)

 

No trouble accelerating over 60mph in 5th gear.

 

1st to 2nd isn't terrible, if I was building a truck and was actually going to use it as a truck at all, I would actually want a lower first gear or different gears out back - even if that means I start in second most of the time.

 

You're probably close on weight for mine - and I depending on the model of 32 Chrysler - it might not be that much different.

 

 

Yes? Well your running .71 overdrive the same as an A833 truck trans with 3.54 no issues.

Your tire size a bit shorter than 28 inches.

The engine a modified 250 makes all the difference in the world.

Now with a 218 or sluggish tired engine a 3.73 or a 3.90 might be more appropriate and all depending on weight of vehicle etc.

My 108 wb Fargo weight approx 3300 lbs with modified but tired 228 and T98A 4spd with 3.23 gears and 28.5 inch tires.

It moves along well enough. But at 60mph in a vicious headwind it can be more of a dog other than that no real issues.

The T98A 4 spd has almost identical gear spread of the A833 1st to 3rd but in 2nd to 4th.

1st at 6.40 is near useless on this trans.

Chrysler Canada used the T98Acme in the Dodge and Fargo line up from 3/4 ton to Powerwagons. It has the removable cover for a transfer case. They were also used in Jeeps International and some Ford applications.

Looking back at older threads on this type of topic Reg Evans posted to me,  that his Old Yellar with rebuilt 251 4spd trans and 3.0 gears keeps up with traffic and does the hills in the sierras just fine 

These engines if healthy are bulls and can push well..

Fargone my shifter is a stock Hurst for a 79 or 80 D100 

Now its positioned high enough for the driver to comfortably shift and to allow a passenger to sit in the middle seat ( barely Im sure) 

Your option A looks good and should get you where you wanna be.

Look forward to your progress.

1 hour ago, greg g said:

Source I looked at showed those ratios for 6cyl 4 speed maual with OD in 73.  Didñn't check another.  Don't know or care how big the ring gear is, it's not Germaine to my experience.  Granted I am not reading from the book of  - - - so I'm may be wrong... But I may be right , I might be crazy, I just maybe the lunitic you are looking for...

Okay okay sorry Billy...lol

Thought you lived in western New Yawk not Brooklyn....

10 minutes ago, greg g said:

Is the difference between .73 and. .70 really worth calculating? Just stating my experience with one particular car in one particular circumstance. It is purely anecdotal based on one observation.  It believe two gear ratios were available for 6 cylinder volares of the era 3.55 and 3.91.  my guess that the OD cars got the 3.91.  is it worth calculating the difference between 4.11 and 3.91?  Not getting wound up by a 50 to 70 rpm difference if it's even descernable without a tach. 

 

Just relating what was not a practable set up. I believe the flatheads may have more torque than the slant 6 in the similar cruise rpm range but don't know for sure.   As I said I hope the swap works for the conditions.

   

Well of course the difference is nothing, but Greg, the Volares and Aspens with 6 cyl engines and A833 used the 7 1/4 diff with 2.76, 2.94 and 3.23, no the did not have 3.55 or 3.91 unless a special order, trucks got those as well as bigger cars and vans.

The Volare weighing near 3400 lbs, and a 3.23 or even worse a 2.94, would be a real deficit for a .73 gear reduction in a low powered slant 6...

My Fargo, with 228, dual carbs and exhaust and tired, moves it along fine with 3.23 gears, if I shift from 3rd to 4th too soon on a hill of wicked headwind she is a dog until 50 mph or just over 2000 rpm, so yes an A833 would be a disaster, actually a T5 with 4.03 1st and .86 5th would work with a 3.23 gear set...

3 hours ago, HotRodTractor said:

 

Discussions of power, weight, and reliability of potential transmissions swap candidates are perfectly applicable to this board. All three qualities and more should be discussed when talking about a particular transmission swap as it lends itself to suitability of its potential new home.

Okay HRT lets talk about your current set-up, you bought Don Coatneys 48 Plymouth weight approximately 3100 lbs, rebuilt Desoto 251, with ASche dual carbs and exhaust, rest is stock build, and do not think the cam is anything over stock.

Now which T5 is it, the NWC with 3.76 1st gear and .72 overdrive reduction and a 3.54 rearend, as I seem to recall?

Now you have been posting, about highway trips cruising at 85 mph, you have any issues picking up speed in 5th gear over 60 mph?

The 251 and especially the 265, and especially a well built and tuned 265 will have a lot more grunt pushing up a hill than a little stock USA built 217.

The first gear in your trans is low, but not as bad as the earlier version, heck you must be shifting from 1st to 2nd really quick.

A local guy here has a 32 Chrysler with a 1952 251, 4.03 NWC T5 trans and 3.90 gears, and even with those super tall tires on his car, he takes off in 2nd gear most of the time, its way to low, especially with 3.90 gears. Those transmissions were designed for use with very light, low powered engines, now the later versions, and the Ford 5 litre Mustang and Camaros, used another type.

I really don't think Fargone is going to have any trouble with his tri carbed built 251 and 3.73 gears with a .73 gear reduction in overdrive, plus his foirst gear is 3.08 a heck of difference from 4.03 or 3.76

3 hours ago, John-T-53 said:

 

Thanks for documenting your build, I can't wait to see the results of the first A833 trans swap, at least one that's been documented on this forum.

 

As others have said in regards to the rear end ratios, I think you will want a lower ratio as well. Considering the power output of the flattie, you'll want an overall final drive ratio of  around 12 to 13:1, in first gear.

 

In my truck (equipped with an OD) I believe the final ratio in first is about 13.5:1. That gets me up to about 10 - 15 mph but a quick start off the line. It works perfectly and I love driving it.

 

Edit: On the other end of the gearing, I have 2.95 final drive ratio. Highway speeds I'm in the low 2k's for RPM. I can climb hills in OD as well. 230 w/ (2) 1bbl carbs.

 

"junk buckets" .... WTF, LOL!

John whats your final gear ratio? Which NWC trans do you have and how heavy is your truck?

Well you should be able to climb at 2300 rpm.

The problem with nkeiser is his little 218 is a bit weak.

This is especially true with the truck A833 .71 overdrive 

Yup owned a few old early Rangers and 1 S10 4cyl. Not the greatest mechanical marvels the 1980 Ford Courier was the worst.

Your running a basic stock build 230 with dual carbs. While a lot better than a 218 might not be up to the task of a well built 265.

2 hours ago, greg g said:

I considered the OD version of the a833 years ago when I was putting my 230 together.  Then I remembered a trip made in his wife's slant 6 Volare with OD.  We needed to go to Buffalo from Syracuse.  Jumped on I 90 Nys Thru way.  Mind you for most of that section the highway parrellels the NewYork Central RR famous Water Level Route that goes from NYC to Chicago.  Granted water runs down hill and Buffalo is marginally higher than Syracuse.  600 ft vs 425 to500, but come on man!  Against a slight head wind that car could not maintane 65mph in OD or even 55.  Needed to constantly be downshifted for even the slightest grades.  I don't know what the rear axle ratio was but it was not suited to the OD set up.  On the way back with a tail wind same story slight grade, downshift.

 

So I kept my 4.11 and added an r 10 last year.  Hope your set up suites your conditions.

Greg,

So heres my question to you?

Whats the gear reduction on your R10?

A Volare is .73 with the A833.

Now many of those had 3.23 gears not a good choice with a lower HP engine 

Now your R10 is a great trans and choice.

But I think you will find tge overdrive reduction similar.

Some issues with an A833 coukd be with, weak low powered engines with the wrong final drive gearing.

As well some complain about 2nd to 3rd gear spread not optimal with the wrong gearing.

While I think your R10 is a great trans its final gear reduction aint much different than the A833 car trans.

9 hours ago, Old CWO said:

 

Thanx for your critique.

On Ford Rangers and Toyotas who gives a hoot as this is a Classic Dodge truck board.

Your engine and gear, tire combo arent great now it wont be that great with a T5 and smaller tires in .86 5th gear.

So you will be shifting back to 4th and 3rd too on steep grades.

What engine are you running? A 218 will not compare to built 230 or 250/265.

Reg did not mention running in 3rd up hills and keeping travellers piled up behind.

Good luck on your T5..

4 hours ago, Old CWO said:

 

Keep the rear tire diameter to 28" or less and I am positive you will have an enjoyable driving truck with that combo.  Pretty much every four cylinder 5 speed small truck through the 80s and 90s had about a 13.5:1 first gear final ratio and cruised 65 MPH around 2500 RPM.  They were never hot rods but legions of Ranger/S-10 fans would probably agree it was more than serviceable for a daily driven light duty pickup truck. Our trucks are similar in the power to weight ratio as those so I don't see any reason why they would be much different with the right gearing.

 

Unfortunately I am currently sporting 30" tires and 3.55 gears in my 4 speed truck - no bueno... There is a rebuilt 4.03:1 first gear T5 at my house waiting for installation this winter.  Hopefully fixes me right up!  If it's still unsatisfactory the ring and pinion can easily be changed to something in the 4s.  Years of being a Jeep guy taught me that you shouldn't "fear the gear."  It's okay to go a little on the low side if you have an overdrive transmission.  One of my favorite 4x4s was a 4 banger Jeep with 33s, AX5 5 speed and 4.88s.  It was an absolute blast off road and around town.  The only time you really knew it was under-powered was above 65 MPH which is faster than you should be driving a lifted Jeep anyway.  

 

Have fun with your truck Ken!

The 4 cyl S10 and Ranger were gutless low torque engines.

Fargone should be fine with 3.73 gears a long block flattie with tri carbs and split exhaust.

These engines attain max torque way down in the power band too.

Although these old trucks are not that heavy especially in the 108 wb versions there boxy. The S10 and Ranger were light little junk buckets too.

The A833 and a flattie you could go right on up to 4.11s it would be great off the line and in .71 overdrive it would vlimb just fine.

3.55s would be dicey.

Smaller tires on these trucks dont look right in most cases.

on the NWC S10 T5 with 4.03 1st and .86 5th that can work with gearing like 3.23. Gent I know has 32 Chrysler with 1952 251 4.03 T5 and 3.90 gears. He has to take off in 2nd most of the time.

Been in that car its up to 70 mph in no time flat.

Side note Reg Evans has a 52 Dodge with 251 truck 4 spd and Thunderbird diff with 3.0 gears. He cruises his area in the mountains of northern California going uphill with no issues.

There is a huge difference between a 218 and a 251 or 265 in power...

7 hours ago, Young Ed said:

It would make sense that they would change the front to a gm pattern. There wouldn't be a logical reason to change the tailshaft between the versions 

Mount reasons.

The A833 mounts in same location and type as A904 and 727 with corresponding splined output shafts.

20 minutes ago, Young Ed said:

We arent talking about the whole trans just the tail section. Do you know if that interchanges??

Any info ive researched appears not but who knows.

The innards are all the same.

And again the Mopar or GM overdrive  versions are not in the same league as the 4spd A833 behind a 440 or 426..

6 hours ago, cavisco1 said:

GM used this same transmission with GM’s own 10-spline input shaft, input bearing and retainer:
o 1981 to 1986 Chevrolet 2- and 4- wheel drive pickups and Suburban (3.09:1 ratio first gear)
o General Engines designated this transmission code MY6.

This may open up some options for tailshafts and shifters. I will leave further research to you.

4 hours ago, Young Ed said:

What someone putting GM parts in a Mopar???

Not likely U2, you need to check out your facts on the GM version.

11 hours ago, SmokeyC3 said:

Off topic vehicle ,but I did this one. The bracket has to be beefy enough or it will flex and eventually break. Shift linkages took some fiddling and they weren't all correct on the first try. The reverse link has some pretty hard bends that flexed when shifting so it got a gusset plate added. With a little patience it's doable.

Looks good.

What bell is that? What engine you running?

See the A833 is bolted on top 2 holes to bell, what about the bottom 2 holes?

On 8/31/2019 at 11:41 AM, Plymouthy Adams said:

your shift rod will need to be modified to the correct length as gauged in neutral position each tranny lever and with the shifter neutral and cross over also pinned..from there it is a simple cut to length and thread as needed...when you do this type of changes to a set up you must be prepared for these events and have the tools needed or at least available to you to complete the task...

Fargone, Heck im gonna look out for a different tailshaft for you.

Ever try running a Kijiji ad for it in Alberta?

3 hours ago, Fargone said:

When you raised your shifter did you have to alter your shifter rods or just make simple adjustments? And does it shift well after these changes?

 

This is totally factory 1979 D100

Here is the type that you need for an easier install.

Hey Fargone yes a fabricated bracket or some other means of attachment to move forward.

The linkages need to be addressed too with the correct length geometric shape too.

No doubt its from a Volare or aspen with console and bucket seats?

22 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

 

It is strange indeed....the Borg Warner company, maker of the T5's has been an independent maker of automotive drive train parts for nigh on a century  and is yet very successful.  They build to makers specs...and the only thing that makes one of their products 'oriented' and because of their excellent products and the fact that Chrysler was not in the market to build and man a special new wing to their already large holding, that when Chrysler engineers developed the over drive they asked Borg-Warner to do make the unit and allowed them to market it to the competitors.  I am sure it marketing strategy paid off for ole Walter in either reduces cost to him or kick backs...don't know that story.  GM closed down the Muncie operation years ago and put a town out of work basically. (now buys BW stuff)  In steps Chrysler again with the idea to open the machine works, machines in place, experienced workers in the locale.  So with the Chrysler design, GM owned buildings, the New Venture comes on line and both companies benefit and a town is back in the money so to speak...

Seroiusly Tim, nobody denies tgat B&W makes great transmissions.

In fact mine is a T98.

Why are you constantly taking threads into a different agenda?

While I see nothing wrong with your info above, it does not belong on this man's thread.

Fargone created this thread to document and illustrate his A833 swap, kudos to him.

Why not let him and others continue with this theme?

Geesh I do not see much or any threads dedicated to your builds.

In fact why dont you create a few build threads, they would no doubt be helpful to those who wish to do similar things.

GGdad I couldn't agree more enough of this nonsense on here. Could you please edit any of the posts not conducive to the theme and goodwill of Fargones thread, that includes any of my posts.