Rodney Bullock Posted December 3, 2006 Report Share Posted December 3, 2006 I recently had the old girl out for a spin, I noticed that if I use starter fluid to start it it cranks and starts right away, I know there is gas present in the bowl however if I don't use the starter fluid it takes a very long time to start the car. I now have some miles on my rebuild so I think something is wearing, the question is what? any thought's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Cipponeri Posted December 3, 2006 Report Share Posted December 3, 2006 My Plymouth is hard starting when it has been sitting for a while. Tony C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normspeed Posted December 3, 2006 Report Share Posted December 3, 2006 Before you crank it can you look down the carb and see a shot of gas from the accelerator pump when you move the carb linkage? Also you might recheck your point gap, they can get a little hard starting if that's off. Rodney, did you repaint your coupe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob_amos Posted December 3, 2006 Report Share Posted December 3, 2006 If the hard starting is after sitting for sometime you probably are experiencing a loss of fuel in the float bowl. This generally due to evaporation. If it is hard to start after sitting, perhaps a number of hours or over night the same lack of fuel MAY be the trouble due to an internal leak or even an external leakage of fuel from the float bowl. Have a look down the carb throat before starting. Actuate the accelerator pedal and look for fuel being discharged from the accelerator nozzle. If none is present you now want to get the old girl started and then stop the engine perform the same nozzle check. Now, if you do see fuel being discharged you now know that it is a lack of fuel. If there still is no fuel your accelerator system is malfunctioning. SO, one of 3 things may be your trouble. Lack of fuel due to evaporation, this being normal. Lack of fuel due to internal or external leakge, this is not normal or lack of fuel due to a malfunctioning accelerator pump and this is also not normal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodney Bullock Posted December 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2006 There is fuel present when I press the gas, I have looked down the bowl while trying to start the car after long stints of in activity. I think I better look at those points. Once I installed them I never touched them. Funny The studebaker starts all the time no matter what, could it be better technology or a coincidance:confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodney Bullock Posted December 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2006 Before you crank it can you look down the carb and see a shot of gas from the accelerator pump when you move the carb linkage? Also you might recheck your point gap, they can get a little hard starting if that's off. Rodney, did you repaint your coupe?No just thought I would throw in a pic you may not have seen, this was after the color sanding during the paint job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob westphal Posted December 4, 2006 Report Share Posted December 4, 2006 Are you using the choke? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodney Bullock Posted December 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2006 I am using the choke however I don't think the bottom flap is being utilized. I do see the top flap close, would this make a diffrence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou Earle Posted December 7, 2006 Report Share Posted December 7, 2006 "If your absolutely sure it is a fuel problem check your ignition!!!" Rarely does a fuel problem on starting occur after u have gotten it running well. Pull that dist and I bet you will find points worn ,little burr, or closed to about 17 or less. Lou Anyone want my method of setting points with a test light to be sure of dead on timing? never fails Lou Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lazarus Posted December 7, 2006 Report Share Posted December 7, 2006 Yes please I would like to hear your method as I have the same problem with my '38 (with a '54 engine) Even if left for 5 days, the damn car is grumpy and doesn't want to play. Fuel is present...that was the first thing I checked, choke is working, but I do suspect ignition (but I reset all that also) because a a bit of a puff of smoke on start up that to me seems more like excess petrol burning off rather than oil burning. She doesn't touch oil....I only ever put more in at oil change time which is about every 12 months or 5000 miles. So if there is an alternative points setting method I'll give it a try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodney Bullock Posted December 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2006 Hey David, when you are trying to start your car, pull a plug and take a look at it. MY plugs are black. I tryed a little test and what I did was let the car sit for two weeks and then put new plugs in it started on the second try, I think my somehow our plugs are getting fouled as we try and then it gets worst as we go, the starter fluid causes a quick burn situation, question is how do you fix this:( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lazarus Posted December 8, 2006 Report Share Posted December 8, 2006 Hmmmm, yes I think that is a good idea, it always starts so I have not poped a plug out to see how it looks... There is another thread going with a simple way to set points, they are also talking about dwell, which I have never checked and to be honest don't know a lot about, I always get my engines going with a feeler gauge and a timing light so dwell is left to chance...guess I may have to by a dwell meter someday soon!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normspeed Posted December 8, 2006 Report Share Posted December 8, 2006 Rodney, if the plugs are black and dry (sooty) it's probably either got a weak spark or it's running too rich. Also, a lot of short trip driving or driving with the choke pulled out will do this. I think you are running AutoLite 306 plugs. Try a plug gap of .028. Some books say .035 but that is only for resistor plugs like the Champion R series. Points, .020 inch. Dwell is just another way to set points, using a meter to measure how many degrees of cam rotation the points stay or "dwell" in the closed position. A .020" feeler guage works fine though. Another thing on weak spark, if you've changed coils, be sure the wire to the distributor is connected to the + terminal on the coil. If connected the other way it will run but the spark will be weaker. I have a boat with a Chevy V6 motor and I only run it maybe once every 60-90 days. Unless I use a shot of starting fluid it's hard starting. Once it's been run, it fires up fine without any help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodney Bullock Posted December 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2006 back in the summer the guy at the paint shop left my switch on until my battery was died. Do you think that the condenser could be angry I did not change that, how do I stop the carb from running rich? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted December 8, 2006 Report Share Posted December 8, 2006 back in the summer the guy at the paint shop left my switch on until my battery was died. Do you think that the condenser could be angry I did not change that, how do I stop the carb from running rich? Rodney; If the key were left on chances you fried the points or coil or both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis Hemingway Posted December 8, 2006 Report Share Posted December 8, 2006 That happened to me, last weekend the body shop could not get the 48 to start, they had left the key on and fried the points. Changed the points and she fired right up. Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodney Bullock Posted December 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2006 Oh boy, This thing is haunting me still, This guy at my paint shop, and to think he said he did not want to paint anymore of my old cars, I gave him total instructions on how to start the car. The place has body men and the other side is for paint. The fell on the coupe as you all remember, the body guys moved the car in and out there space a week everything fine as soon as the paint manager got the car he wasen't using the choke to start it, then he turned the key like it was a modern era car, turned the key and broke the switch. I replaced the switch and charged the battery (whick later had a dead cell) It's only natural that the points are burned as well. This guy thinks he did nothinghe really hurt my little car. He will never touch it again, I would like to squeeze his neck until it looks like this:eek: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg g Posted December 8, 2006 Report Share Posted December 8, 2006 Let's talk carburetors. A carburetor is an analoge mixing device. Our carburetors Carters and Solexes are only adjustable in the idle mode. the idle mixture adjustment screw is an air bleed orifice and controls the air entering the idle circuit, which if I am not mistaken has a fixed size jet. The air passing through the circuit pulls fuel trhought he jet and atomizes it. the more air the leaner the idle mixture, the less air the richer the circuit. Thats it. The main circuit, and the power circuit are also fixed jets, so they can only provide whatever fuel the air flow will pull unless they are blocked which would cause a lean condition. An improperly set float or a float needle and seat that don't shut off fuel can cause overfilling of the float bowl and this can lead to washing of extra fuel through the carb. this will richen things up in a hurry and dripping fuel coming out the throttle plate pivot holes is likely. Some carbs are more adjustable than ours, Holleys, webbers, SU's, and similarly designed Solex side drafts do have adjustable jets that can be mis adjusted or perhaps vibration affected. Ours simply can't go rich unless the choke buttefly isn't opening or sombody changed the jets. Restricted airflow may have some effect, but less air usually equals less fuel bcause of the venturi principal. So if your choke is operating correctly, your air filter is not clogged, and your float is set correctly, and the needle and seat are working properly, the situation proves the old saw the most carburetor problems are electrical.So look for a weak spark, from. bad coil, bad wires, old spark plugs, wires not seated correctly in the dizzy cap, incorrect timing, etc. My 2 cents about carburetors at least Carter 1bbls. These carbs are not much more complicated than the one on your Briggs and stratton mower motor, when was the last time you had a rich running condition on that????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin h P15 Posted December 9, 2006 Report Share Posted December 9, 2006 My '47 has a tough time starting in the morning, especially after sitting a few days. Will start quickly every other time during the day. I need to check the plugs, but poor starting may be related to my reluctance to use much choke. Any reasons why this would actually be electrical related? Dampness in the morning on coils or in points? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg g Posted December 9, 2006 Report Share Posted December 9, 2006 Hey you guys, yer just used to starting modern fule injected cars which keep residual pressure in the fule rail so the injecters fire right off. Didja ever read the owners manual for cold starting your Plymouth or Dodge?? Try this, pump the gas pedal once or twice, while it is on the floor set the choke, fully. Hold the pedal at 1/3 to 1/2 half travel, and then hit the starter. Keep in mind that your carburetor has what amounts to an open vent to the atmosphere, and modern gas is more volitile (volitility is the ease at which a fluid evaporates) than the gas when these cars were new. So if your car sits a few days or a couple weeks, much of the gas that may have been in the float bowl may be gone, but giving the accelerator pedal a pump or two should spray some gas in through the accelerator pump circuit. Flooring the pedal while pulling out the choke also sets the high idle cam which helps the engine deal with the choke enriched fuel mixture. When the engine starts push in the choke a bit to establish a smooth high speed idle. For those of you with automatic chokes, flooring the pedal also sets the choke to the closed position and the high idle cam to the high speed setting. As the engine warms, the linkage should pull the choke to open as the engine warms. And lower temps and moisture in the air will compromise and highlight problems in the ignition side of the equation. As noted in another post, for the cost of a new set of plugs....change them. And make sure the rest of the systemis up to spec. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodney Bullock Posted December 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2006 WoW Greg, Give me a second to put my head back on, you blew my mind!.......Now all my problems with the carb started when I got this new carb and traded in my old one. The carb I have was from a 1941 plymouth. It was set up for the choke cable and the throttle cable. This new carb is set up for the manifld choke level that is on my 1953 motor. That other carb was a frankenstein I made it from junk parts I had, that's why I agree with you when you said tese carbs are very simple, It's a wonder that it worked. This newer cardb that I bought makes the car run fast, very responsive however hard starting was never a problem with the old one, the float was not forgiving it had to be in a perfect setting before it worked well. This new one was great right out the box and in the summer the choke was not a factor. If I use starter fluid it starts on the second try, could the fluid because it ignites faster then gas and because the plugs are sooted be the culprit? I will be going down to the garge this week end and I will do the test change the plugs and just try to start the car normally 5 pumps of the gas and hit the button this will tell me alot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodney Bullock Posted December 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2006 I recently had the old girl out for a spin, I noticed that if I use starter fluid to start it it cranks and starts right away, I know there is gas present in the bowl however if I don't use the starter fluid it takes a very long time to start the car. I now have some miles on my rebuild so I think something is wearing, the question is what? any thought's http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/mr1940/Sep26-15.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg g Posted December 9, 2006 Report Share Posted December 9, 2006 Rodney, you have now thrown another variable in the mix. A carb transplanted from a later engine may be jetted differently than your original frankencarb. Remember your 41 has a 201 cube engine the later motors are 218 or 230 cubes. bigger displacement pulls more air and the jets sizes in the later carbs may be different. I do not have any specific knowledge on the sizes of the jets but a later model carb on the smaller engine may be over fueling the engine. this would be especially true at idle and low rpm operation, and might explain your feeling of being peppier than the other carb. If anybody has a carter book they might be able to see if the jets are different through the years for 201, 218, and 230's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Yergin Posted December 9, 2006 Report Share Posted December 9, 2006 Actually I think it is the other way around for Rodney. I believe he has a '53 motor in his '40 with a '41 carb on that '53 motor. In other words a carb for a 201 on a 218. Is that right Rodney? Jim Yergin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted December 9, 2006 Report Share Posted December 9, 2006 Actually I think it is the other way around for Rodney. I believe he has a '53 motor in his '40 with a '41 carb on that '53 motor. In other words a carb for a 201 on a 218.Is that right Rodney? Jim Yergin Jim; I believe you are correct. When Rodney gave me a chauffeured ride in his Plymouth the engine never once misfired. But Rodney drove like he had two dozen eggs under his wimpy right foot. I need to give Rodney my chauffeur treatment and he will think he is riding in a NASCAR racer (actually he will be riding in the BIG race winner) as I am not afraid to goose it to the hilt. Let um eat! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.