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Acid trip gone bad.


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Last year I used some muriatic  acid to remove rust. I thought my process was going to be better then what I was told to do.

For some reason, My way worked on one fender, but on the other fender it did not work at all.

I treated the fenders last year, then stored them in my office, the one bad fender was first in and had all the rest of the front end parts hiding it.

 

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Just saying, this is correct and how I put the fenders away. ...The hood and other front end sheet metal was just fine with same treatment.

 

Then you look at this fender, I am fighting it and think I am winning, is a acid wash, then a vinegar rinse then repeat, then hose off and repeat again.

I do have the inside of the fender looking good, Now starting on the outside.

I just wanted to add, Muriatic  acid is good tool to have, be sure to neutralize it correctly.  I bet one more winter in my house and would have lost this fender, it was rusting so bad.

Now it is just a job twice as big as it was the first time, because I did not do it correct the first time  ?

 

 

 

 

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Edited by Los_Control
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Used to work in a plating shop.  Muriatic acid is fast for rust removal, but it also will rust right before your eyes when you take it out.  Phosphoric acid is a LOT slower, but it doesn't rust after taking it out.  In fact, I have a bare piece of steel that I never got painted after I took it out of my acid bath back in around 81 or so.  It still has not rusted.  (I didn't rinse it off, just let the acid dry.)

 

Edited by Eneto-55
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My understanding is that muriatic acid attacks anything and everything, but phosphoric acid is less aggressive on metals...I have used Rust-Cure for years, it seems more effective than Ospho as Ospho would need more than one application for complete rust removal...it worked well on sheet metal, structural steel and cast iron, used it on the Farmall 1206 restoration I completed in '04 and I credit it for keeping that tractor from getting rusty again as it is still being worked today, shredding pastures and hauling hay :cool:

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I simply do not have time to correct the issue today.

As much as I want to, I just cant. I have to head to the showers and get ready for a trip tomorrow.

I also do the shopping, the house cleaning,  the cooking, not complaining just tomorrow I have a 6 hour road trip ahead of me. Take my wife to a DR appointment, then later to Lubbock for a medical procedure.

So that fender needs to sit until I get back, and will be the day after tomorrow I get back to it.

 

Being disabled and retired leaves lots of time, we still do not get to choose how we will spend that time.

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I repainted my rusty LPG tank (mfg in '64) back in late 2011 using the foam roller method with Rustoleum, took my time, a few hours a day, over 3 weeks, and it's still just as shiny as it was after I was done...my neighbor painted his newish steel carport about the same time, went cheap on the paint, got in a hurry and knocked it out over 2 weekends, and it started getting rusty the following spring, looks crummy now...so take your time, do it right the 1st time, and you'll probably never need to paint it again :cool:

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13 minutes ago, JBNeal said:

using the foam roller method with Rustoleum, took my time, a few hours a day, over 3 weeks, and it's still just as shiny as it was after I was done..

The shiny scares me, I am going to stop at tractor supply tomorrow, see if I can exchange a gallon of gloss black, for a gallon of semi gloss black.

This rustoleum is just to shiny for my taste.

In the meantime, I do not mind putting gloss black on the frame and under the hood ... I just refuse to put it on my exterior.

 

Pimp me out black ... I want black, I just need something not so shiny.

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After you kill the rust you need to dry it out and then seal it with an Epoxy primer. 

Its high in resin and designed to keep moisture out. Its technically not sandable because of its tough exterior.

You are suppose to spray a sandable primer over the Epoxy primer.

A good Urethane primer for shaping, then an Epoxy as a sealer (thinned) over that . 

In the old days, you'd use an etching primer (acid based) but that's not used much anymore.

I only use etching primers in areas I can't sand very well (the inside trunks and doors etc)

Its acid based which is why most don't use it anymore for complete jobs.

Etching primers are thin, and didn't always hold the oxygen out like Epoxy's do now. 

Epoxy primers come in black......some guys stop right there and call it done, until it needs more black.

 

48D

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I just wanted to add to this thread, I think I have everything under control now. The fenders are now fine, am in the process of going over and re-doing the rest of the pieces while at it.

I tried to follow instructions, watched a few youtube vids and it seems pretty straight forward.

 

1, apply the muriatic  ... This can take several coats and need to use fresh water to rinse off the residue and then apply more acid until at clean bare metal.

2, apply a vinegar/water mix to neutralize the acid.

3, rinse with clean water to neutralize the vinegar and wipe dry with clean rags.

4, apply ospho for long term rust protection until painted.

 

In this photo, you can see the difference between the hood and the fenders.

I used the above instructions to clean the parts last year, and I think the hood looks like crap but the rust is dead and did not come back. The rest of the parts looked the same.

Except the one fender that continued to rust .... seems like it was hit and miss to get the job done. Really not satisfied with it but glad the rust was dead and not getting worse.

 

This time around, after experimenting a few different ways, I came up with my way.

 

1, apply the acid and rinse with water as needed til you are at clean metal.

2, apply the acid one last time, and before it dries on the clean metal, apply ospho and wipe dry with a clean rag.

Done!

 

Just any time I tried to neutralize the acid with water, it was a instant flash rust following. I could use water to rinse the metal clean, but had to follow up with acid after water.

Then ospho to finish the job.

 

 

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Acid ( vinegar) won’t neutralize acid(hydrochloric).   That is the mistake in the first process.  If you are set on using it try using a baking soda to wash. Then sophomore, ospho or my favorite PickellX 20. 

Edited by kencombs
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On October 15, 2019 at 6:25 PM, Los_Control said:

 

This rustoleum is just to shiny for my taste.

 

You can add corn starch to water or oil base paints to knock the sheen down. Mix some in, filter out the lumps and spray or roll it on. Will have to experiment with the correct amount to get the desired sheen and add a little water/thinner as it does make the paint thicker.

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10 hours ago, The Oil Soup said:

You can add corn starch to water or oil base paints

Thats interesting, I figured there would be something I could add, I did not figure it to be corn starch  :)

 

As a old carpenter, I have played with plaster, adding coffee grounds to it gives it a nice dark streaky finish. Adjusting the amount adjust the color.

 

Either way I have 2 gallons of gloss black to use up, looks like 1.5 is going on the under side. Then will need to buy fresh paint for the body anyways..

 

Ultimate paint for me would be some areas where red primer is showing through the black. From years of use.

I want new paint, but want it to look like it was a old original paint job. I may experiment some with this idea, if I cant make it look natural then will just settle for new.

Pretty sure I would not be able to pull this off with a high gloss paint.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Los_Control said:

Thats interesting, I figured there would be something I could add, I did not figure it to be corn starch  :)

 

As a old carpenter, I have played with plaster, adding coffee grounds to it gives it a nice dark streaky finish. Adjusting the amount adjust the color.

 

Either way I have 2 gallons of gloss black to use up, looks like 1.5 is going on the under side. Then will need to buy fresh paint for the body anyways..

Ultimate paint for me would be some areas where red primer is showing through the black. From years of use.

I want new paint, but want it to look like it was a old original paint job. I may experiment some with this idea, if I cant make it look natural then will just settle for new.

Pretty sure I would not be able to pull this off with a high gloss paint.

 

 

If you have a parts store that mixes paint, they will have a flattening agent in the mix bank.  And, can provide info on how much to add to arrive at certain glossiness.  Flat, matte etc.

My local guys will sell this and other tints/additives off the mixing bank without providing the paint. 

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16 minutes ago, Los_Control said:

Thats interesting, I figured there would be something I could add, I did not figure it to be corn starch  :)

 

As a old carpenter, I have played with plaster, adding coffee grounds to it gives it a nice dark streaky finish. Adjusting the amount adjust the color.

 

Either way I have 2 gallons of gloss black to use up, looks like 1.5 is going on the under side. Then will need to buy fresh paint for the body anyways..

 

Ultimate paint for me would be some areas where red primer is showing through the black. From years of use.

I want new paint, but want it to look like it was a old original paint job. I may experiment some with this idea, if I cant make it look natural then will just settle for new.

Pretty sure I would not be able to pull this off with a high gloss paint.

 

 

How in the name of sam are you going to use 1.5 gallon of paint on a frame?     Reducing 1.5 gallon Rustoleum even without adding a catalyst..will be approximately 2.250 gallons of paint....given you are spraying....I shot my most recent frame with just 20 ounces or raw paint....which yields 52.25 ounces mixe with catalyst.  I think you could paint the undercarriage of a locomotive with that much raw paint.  That was 2 full wet coats applied...

Edited by Plymouthy Adams
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On 10/25/2019 at 3:43 PM, kencombs said:

Acid ( vinegar) won’t neutralize acid(hydrochloric).   That is the mistake in the first process.

All I can say, I found that on the internet, so I was sure it was true   :D

There is a guy on youtube that talks like a idiot, but he has a successful body shop for over 30 years. I followed the instructions just like he showed .... his looked fine when finished.

Mine also looked fine, but it was the next morning several hours later where I had the problem. He did not show his the next day.

Right now, there is just a light film on them from the ospho, is easily hand sanded off.

 

If you have a parts store that mixes paint, they will have a flattening agent in the mix bank.  And, can provide info on how much to add to arrive at certain glossiness.  Flat, matte etc.

I think napa may help me with that, they are pretty helpful at times.

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3 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

How in the name of sam are you going to use 1.5 gallon of paint on a frame?

I am not spraying the frame, if it was completely disassembled I would. As is, I need to brush it on to avoid painting things that should not be painted.

Brushing it on, there is no need for reducer and I am going over it a couple times after it dries. So far from the cowl forward I have used 1/3 of a gallon.

That includes all the splash pans, radiator support, axle, springs etc ....

currently under the cab, there is quite a bit to paint also,  cab floor, battery box, cross member ... the new gas tank I will spray before installing.

You get past the cab, and there is quite a bit there to paint.

 

Brushing it on, you do use a lot more paint,and then I am doing 2 coats. I also mix the paint well in the can, then I pour what I am using into a different container. I do not want to be sticking a dirty brush in the gallon can, and there is some waste from this process. I am not going to pour the 1 or 2" of paint left over back into the gallon can.

As long as I get the surface good and clean, I am comfortable with a thick layer of paint,  I do have a couple runs, but very few. Most can fix as you create them ... then there is brush marks. I am ok with that on the frame. This is no show truck or trailer queen. I will be hauling concrete and lumber, tools you name it. I am going to use it.

And it is cheap enough, why not paint it twice once it is dry enough to do so.

I really will be surprised if I do not open the second gallon before the under carriage is finished.

 

But all the sheet metal, fenders cab bed will be sprayed and will be at least 2 coats primer, 3 coats paint, but it wont take much paint. And will be more picky on appearance.

 

 

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still a lot of paint.. stick with it...brushing is a long process for sure...but I understand the cutting of lines with items mounted in place....I did this with a brush to the tune of about 8 ounces...middle pic..thinned and brushed as a wash coat for imperfections and crevices but got full pan coverage....followed with another 12 ounces sprayed...this undercoating is only 16 ounces.....of course as seen in the top pic....I put three coats of body color on also...once tack coat, two wet coats...this cab had no connection of the left A-post to cowl, rocker inner fender or floor, metal was gone...as a precaution I did the same repair to the right cowl.  Hopefully the cab get set on the chassis tomorrow.  A wandering eye would spy the chassis in the background covered by a tarp...complete with poly bushing in the leaf eyes and the shocks upper and lower...got to get rid of that 4.55 rear axle though...lol

 

 

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Edited by Plymouthy Adams
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