Any luck rebuilding wheel cylinders?

[Los_Control]

I am curious if any have had luck rebuilding the existing wheel cylinders. I really question the quality of the new replacements available.

If I thought they were great, I would not even ask, just replace the ones I have.

 

Something is telling me to try and rebuild what I have.

They are crusty, not see'ing any real pitting in the bores. They still need to be honed out and will pickup a hone tool tomorrow.

They really are questionable after sitting 20  years.

 

Back in the day when I knew everything, was 16 years old and worked at a Texaco gas station. I would leave the wheel cylinders on the car, gut and clean them, then hone them and install new cups.

If they needed a lot of hone'ing to clean up, just installed the next larger sized cup.

Pretty sure this is what I will need to do with my wheel cylinders.

They do not have rust or pitting, just old fluid and gum .... I want to see if napa has the parts I need to rebuild them tomorrow, same time wondering if would just be better off ordering new chinese junk.

[John Rogers]

I rebuilt all four of my rear wheel cylinders and both of the fronts on my '49 and they work great. I have to say that there was absolutely no pitting in any of them and the pistons were in great condition as well so I have that going for me. I think a lot of my good fortune stems from that my truck as been driven and well maintained since it was new. When I rebuilt them all I did was clean them really good first, then I honed them and then cleaned them up real good to get rid of any abrasive debris left etc over from honing.  I bought the kits from DCM if I remember correctly. Also when I assembled them I lubricated the internal pieces with brake fluid. I rebuilt the rears about 4 yrs ago.  

                                             John  

Edited September 29, 2019 by John Rogers

[Dodgeb4ya]

Any pitting.. sleeve em or throw them.....out.?

[Los_Control]

I have a bucket of carburettor parts cleaner here. Thinking to let the cylinder and pistons soak over night ... anyone see a issue with that?

 

[tanda62]

I tried rebuilding the fronts but no luck even though I have rebuilt many in the past.  I thought I got the surface smooth and without pits but no matter what they leaked.  They had been sitting for about 15 years so maybe the lack of use did them in.  Finally broke down and bought new ones.   Moral of the story - try a rebuild and if you need fall back to new.

[Plymouthy Adams]

well, the killer is that you do not know how many times in the past these may have been built and if the cylinder are now a taper as you  have no clue who and what cleaned the bore....unless you have a good means to read the bores exactly...you are giving it the college try but could end up short lived rebuilt given they did not leak from the get go.....

[Los_Control]

3 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

well, the killer is that you do not know how many times in the past these may have been built and if the cylinder are now a taper as you  have no clue who and what cleaned the bore....unless you have a good means to read the bores exactly...you are giving it the college try but could end up short lived rebuilt given they did not leak from the get go.....

Yes sir you are correct ... The cups installed are 1.1/4" I have no clue if that was stock. Maybe somebody already  bored them out.

At the gas station, we had a cabinet on the wall that had all the different sized cups.

I think there was a limit on how big you were allowed to go for a oversized cup.

For example, if I have a 1.1/4" cup now, I would hone it and then install a 1.5/16" cup.

This should be a nice fitting cup and work well. I do not know if the 1.1/4 cup I am removing is original, or if some kid from the gas station already honed and replaced.

 

Guess I will go ahead and replace, but keep the originals in a box for future rebuild if needed. ... you know when I get bored.

[Eneto-55]

I always rebuilt them as well.  Master cylinders, too.  And I've heard the bad stories about the parts coming out of China, too, and figure I will sleeve mine the next time honing won't do the job.  (I used to work in a plating shop, and I wondered about plating back to specs, but you could still get the US made ones back then, so that's what I did, since the ones that came with my car were badly pitted.)

[Los_Control]

So far just gum and goo, I can scrape the goo off of the wheel cylinders with my finger nail.

Will only be after honing to see if they are rebuiduble.

The shoes are bonded, paper thin and need replaced. The drums have some wear on them,

 

Just scared to take the drums to be turned, if a guy could just take 1 pass and clean up a couple grooves, would not be bad.

This photo is the worst drum, the other is much better.

I just doubt I know anyone qualified to clean up the drum. It will work as is until I make a better decision.

 

 

 

[kencombs]

I've always had good luck rebuilding also.  But, that was before most replacement rubber/neoprene/etc soft parts came from the East somewhere.  If I had a choice I'd select USA made cups, Korea second (just because I've had good experiences with tires and tubes from there), Mexico next and anywhere else last.

 

In vest in a set of telescoping gauges to with your mikes,  get 1" to 4" and you can measure most anything on your truck.  I think they cost less that 10bucks if you can wait for the slow boat.  I have a set of those from China.  Work just as well as any.  As long as they provide a repeatable setting, that's all anyone needs, the real measurement is with the mics anyway.  That way you can be sure if they are tapered or oversize too much.

[kencombs]

1 minute ago, Los_Control said:

So far just gum and goo, I can scrape the goo off of the wheel cylinders with my finger nail.

Will only be after honing to see if they are rebuiduble.

The shoes are bonded, paper thin and need replaced. The drums have some wear on them,

 

Just scared to take the drums to be turned, if a guy could just take 1 pass and clean up a couple grooves, would not be bad.

This photo is the worst drum, the other is much better.

I just doubt I know anyone qualified to clean up the drum. It will work as is until I make a better decision.

 

 

 

Can't really tell the condition by the grooves, 'cause we don't know if or how much they have been cut in the past.  My only local source for that (Orielly's) will only cut to the max size indicated on the drum (or manual).  I've asked, and they won't exceed that, even .005".  But, they will measure them free.

[Los_Control]

My goal is rebuilt or new hydraulics, new shoes, then run the existing drums.

Then if needed to upgrade to disk brakes ... I really do not think I need disk brakes.

 

Same time, I already bought and own the rustyhope kit ... just going to try and squeeze a lil more out of the drums first.

 

[Plymouthy Adams]

I follow you completely with the 'don't fix what works' and also have the Rustyhope kit for my car sitting on hand...actually the brackets are stored in the suitcase in the trunk of the car.  I do not intend to just put these on just to put these on but I assure you I will not go back with drums in the front if I have to visit the brakes in the future.

[Los_Control]

Looks like I will need to replace everything, not surprising.

I told myself, if it comes to this point, just go ahead and do the disk brake conversion.

 

I dunno, I just cant do it. Sometimes I think of this old truck as therapy, the basics and simplicity of it. Today I was able to get all the original brake lines off and can use them as a pattern to make new ones. We are talking easy peasy complete  brake replacement.

Just straight and basic mechanics to do the brakes on these old trucks. And relaxing.

No hair pulling trying to fab a master cylinder bracket, or figure out proportioning valve , get the rod length correct,  buying new wheels to fit the rotors.

 

 Basically this was a bridge I needed to cross. I am at the bridge,  I just refuse to cross and do the disk brakes on this truck.

 

So I am looking at different suppliers for parts for our old trucks. Would like any input.

One example, Rockauto sells the brake shoes to fit this truck for $35, The photo they show does not fit the look of the actual product.

Another example, cost a bit more, but are they selling better quality?

Just curious where others are happy to deal with.

[JBNeal]

I bought my shoes + hoses + hardware from Roberts Motor Parts, put over 10k on them before engine problems and an unforgiving schedule sidelined that truck.  I also had White Post Restorations sleeve the master + wheel cylinders with good results.

 

A modern rear brake drum solution has been found, but the front drum is a different story.  I have a few replacement candidates that I wanted to investigate but haven't had the time.  But worn front drums also brings the disk brake conversion into play if there is no front drum replacement available.  I've heard about other members good results and this conversion is on my tentative plans for a frankenstein project sitting by the house, but that is way on down the road for now

[Los_Control]

Thanks for the tip on Roberts, will check them also. Going to order parts Today or Tomorrow.

13 hours ago, JBNeal said:

the front drum is a different story.

This does bother me. I have them cleaned up this morning. And pretty happy with them. They have a lot of meat on them, I think would be no issue getting them turned. Also the bearings and races are in good condition.

Because they are made of unobtainium, I don't want to touch them.

The photo above is the worse one, it is smooth all except for the one ridge in the rear. Funny because it really shows up in the photo, shadows?

I can barely feel it with my finger nail . If I had access to a brake lathe, I would try to shoot for 2 or 3 thousandths just for that ridge.

I do have the 48-50 dodge utility trailer I bought, Hoping I may have spare rear drums there if needed.

 

I soaked the master cylinder and just cleaned and honed it, put the old rubber cup back in. Only goal was to keep it together and throw it on a shelf.

Now it actually works. If I was 20 years old, I would be jumping up and down yelling  "I FIXED IT" I just have no faith in it lasting, even with a new kit.

Then the wheel cylinders are step bore ... I never heard of that before, what they are selling is straight bore. I have to replace one ... not going to mix and match step bore and straight bore, so just replace both.

 

 

[ggdad1951]

I though tI read someplace someone was repopping  drums for the 1/2 ton?

[Los_Control]

9 minutes ago, ggdad1951 said:

I though tI read someplace someone was repopping  drums for the 1/2 ton?

I have never seen that, not for the front. I have seen the fix for the rear that @JBNeal posted.

As far as I know, If my front drums were bad, that would force me to disk brakes at this time.

Since they are useable, I can continue with drums as long as they last. Or buy used drums if they come up in the future.

 

That brings up a good question, does any of the car front drums interchange with the 1/2 ton trucks?

Just thinking if I were to keep my eyes open for spare parts, what would fit?

[Young Ed]

15 minutes ago, Los_Control said:

I have never seen that, not for the front. I have seen the fix for the rear that @JBNeal posted.

As far as I know, If my front drums were bad, that would force me to disk brakes at this time.

Since they are useable, I can continue with drums as long as they last. Or buy used drums if they come up in the future.

 

That brings up a good question, does any of the car front drums interchange with the 1/2 ton trucks?

Just thinking if I were to keep my eyes open for spare parts, what would fit?

Yes at least for W series trucks I have car drums on my front. I believe that continued into the B series. Also another thought isn't the actual drum the same front and rear with the hub being the difference? 

[Los_Control]

9 minutes ago, Young Ed said:

Yes at least for W series trucks I have car drums on my front. I believe that continued into the B series. Also another thought isn't the actual drum the same front and rear with the hub being the difference? 

Thats interesting, I had no idea and I do not know. That does open a whole new window for spares.

Just a quick visual inspection, with the rear wheels mounted. The front wheels have the grease cup that keeps the dirt out of the bearings.

The rear just has a cotter key and nut showing, that keeps the hub on.

 

I suspect this one difference would be a show stopper, maybe could be modified to work, but not a bolt on.

[Eneto-55]

3 hours ago, Los_Control said:

Thats interesting, I had no idea and I do not know. That does open a whole new window for spares.

Just a quick visual inspection, with the rear wheels mounted. The front wheels have the grease cup that keeps the dirt out of the bearings.

The rear just has a cotter key and nut showing, that keeps the hub on.

 

I suspect this one difference would be a show stopper, maybe could be modified to work, but not a bolt on.

I think that Ed is talking about cutting the rivets that secure the drum to the hub, then just depend on the lugs to hold the drum in place, like many modern vehicles.

[kencombs]

3 minutes ago, Eneto-55 said:

I think that Ed is talking about cutting the rivets that secure the drum to the hub, then just depend on the lugs to hold the drum in place, like many modern vehicles.

I think that's what he meant also.  Take it a step further and remove the rivets on the rear also.  Use some of the little spring nuts to retain the drum, or drill and tap for a recessed head/flathead screw or two.  Now you can do brake work without a hub puller!

[Brent B3B]

On ‎10‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 9:28 AM, ggdad1951 said:

I though tI read someplace someone was repopping  drums for the 1/2 ton?

wonder if you were thinking of VPW?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxzO_Oy1EMLIQ3ZTd1FtbWR1TjA/view

[Los_Control]

15 minutes ago, Brent B3B said:

wonder if you were thinking of VPW?

would be nice if they had them for our little trucks, I only saw the bigger drums 

On the other hand, if someone is geared up to re-pop the power wagons, might not be that big of a step to add the others if there was a market.

[Jeff Balazs]

There are so many ways to look at this situation. I suppose a lot depends on how you intend to use the truck and the tools and resources you have available to you. When I started my build I did so with the idea of keeping it 100% original. I even bought all new brake parts and 90% assembled the braking system. Then reality (at least mine) set in. From the very beginning I wanted this truck to be a daily driver. That meant it had to keep up with relatively high speed traffic and it had to stop pretty much like all the modern vehicles around me. If not it simply would not make any sense to continue building it. I just could not see putting something like this together that I would not be totally comfortable driving all the time in any sort of traffic.

 

As I re-evaluated my build ideas It became apparent that I would need to do something about the gearing.

Pretty quickly it was obvious that swapping in an axle out of a late model Cherokee with a better ratio for todays traffic was going to be the easiest fix for the gearing. As I started looking into this I found a 2002 Grand Cherokee axle with 3.55 gearing....and 12" discs. Little more digging and the rusty hope disc kit combined with a Cherokee M/C and two major items were taken care of. And a huge side benefit to doing this is I am not going to need any "unobtainium" in the future to keep this truck on the road. Had the wheels off at around 20.000 miles and the pads and discs show very little sign of wear. So after 4 years on the road zero maintenance or adjustments....and stops like a modern vehicle. Another way to look at all this....fwiw.

 

Jeff