1951 Dodge front suspension upgrade

[Roger Toppenberg]

I want to upgrade the front suspension on a 1951 Dodge passenger car to include disc brakes and power steering. I am wanting to use a Dodge Dakota suspension if possible but others may be considered and am wondering if any others have accomplished this task in the past and can offer suggestions. I am also wanting to install a  1955 331 C.U. Chrysler engine and transmission in the car.

Thanks

 

[Adam H P15 D30]

Below are some shots from my 47 Plymouth build with an early HEMI and a Camaro clip. It should be very similar to a Dakota clip except I had to buy narrowed control arms and you probably won’t have to. I grafted it just below the firewall and had to mod the radiator support slightly for the steering box. Still uses a stock radiator. 

 

[Roger Toppenberg]

Thank you for the response. Nice workmanship is evident on both the clip installation and the recessed firewall. What year Camaro clip did you use and with the narrowed control arms will the tread width be close to the same as the stock 47's ?  I'm curious about that due to the tire/fender lip clearance when turning as I am wanting too lower the front of my car around three inches from the factory height. Do the Camaro rails fit inside of the Plymouths at the point you joined them or did you choose to mate them there for other reasons ( transmission mount, header installation, ride height, etc. ) which brings up the question of have you been able to determine what the stance of the car will be when it is completely assembled yet?  I'm guessing it would take a bunch of sandbags to duplicate the weight of that Hemi hanging out there on the nose.

Thanks

Roger

[Plymouthy Adams]

51 and 47 are different enough that if you want to use a Dakota I recommend an early donor...the 46 and up do better with the 97-04 frames.....I have done 51, a 52 and a 48  I can endorse the Dakota

[Adam H P15 D30]

I used 1971 Camaro clip because I had one but if I were to do it again, I would've used a Dakota for several reasons:

1. bolt pattern - MOPAR (not too much of an issue as most aftermarket wheels are drilled for both)

2. I wouldn't have to spend $$$$$ on narrowed control arms but they look cool...  front track width is good with 15x6 rims now. 

 

It is low, bottom of front bumper is about 4" off the ground.  I don't do air ride so I'll have to be careful.

I butt welded the Camaro rails to the Plymouth rails, they would not fit inside.  Plated 360 degrees around the splice with rosette welds and lap welds.

The plus side is the frame rails are wider on the Camaro subframe compared to the stock frame and Dakota frame.  With headers there was an inch gap between the exhaust and frame rail.  Since you are thinking early HEMI, measure carefully or Hot Heads sells good flowing iron manifolds if you run out of room.  

Front steering made it all possible, no steering box in the way. but a small mod for the radiator support.

Here is an old mock up picture showing the stance.  I removed the front springs and blocked the Camaro front end to ride height, set the Plymouth to my desired ride height and let the tape measure, plumb bob and sawzall do the rest.  This is BEFORE the narrowed control arms.

I had to cut the shelf off the inner fenders and make new lower pieces.

Completed 

The engine is offset to the right about 1.5 inches which lines it up with the offset Ford 8.8 rear axle perfectly.

I have driven the car and though MOPAR had good front suspension this was a major improvement in ride, braking, and handling compared to my 49 Dodge with stock suspension.   I will not do this to my 49 only because there is a "charm" driving an old car that gets lost with modern parts. 

The car is now back apart for finishing, upholstery, and paint.  I will road trip this vehicle so I want it finished. ~year or two...

Hope this helps, Subframing is no small task but much better choice than frame swapping and ending up with a car looking like it's sitting on the wrong frame....

 

Adam

[Roger Toppenberg]

Thanks Adam. I have always thought the late Camaro stubs were plenty wide and shied away from them versus using the earl style or a Nova however they are getting to be as hard to come by as finding teeth in a chicken around here. On the bright side ( excluding the radiator issues ) the front steer is much easier to work with in most cases. With the boxing I wasn't able to tell what was going on where the stub and the existing frame rails came together so thanks for the info concerning that also. Still in the planning stages of this one as it definitely would be a different cat to skin so I am grateful for all of the information and photos you have provided. A Hemi has a way of luring one into maybe more work and expense than most are willing or maybe should be dealing with when the engine compartments are as small and short as these cars have.  

Thanks

Roger

[Roger Toppenberg]

Adam

   So with Dodge having I believe four generations of Dakota pickups ( including the Ram Dakota ) exactly which stub by year are you indicating I should be searching for that will work the best with the 1951 Dodge car?  Tread width, steering location, rail widths, frame ground height ( I also am a fan of down and dirty ) or what makes it the better choice than the others for the application? With your past experience doing the different cars and passing the information on to me is highly appreciated as I feel I only have one build at best left in me and am wanting it to be the best, cleanest and easiest. Best because what is more intimating than having a Hemi under the hood and easiest by starting off with using the correct components for the build however with the small engine bay the terms Hemi and easiest don't really belong in the same sentence do they ? We raced a 1967 Dodge Charger in the U.S.A.C stock car series in 1968 & 69. How I wish I still had one of the 426 Nicholes Engineering racing engines Chrysler had them build exclusively for the Dodge race teams we had back then. $5,000.00 a copy was a lot then but they ruled if you wanted to be competitive but that of course was only right up until something internally broke and then generally all you had left to use from that one for the next was the intake manifold and the carburetor. A new house only cost $20,000.00 during that time so quite obviously, we must have been considered as being retarded then and I don't exactly know what to blame having a Top Dragster for my son to compete in now on.  At seventy-five I do believe they have a couple of terms I don't much care for the sound of used for a condition like this but oh well.

[junkers72]

I believe 1987-1996 is considered 1st generation Dodge Dakota as Mr Adams was referring “early Dakota “ would work better with the ‘51 frame

[Adam H P15 D30]

Plymouthy refers to 97-04 Dakotas for the earlier P15's and and the prior Dakota generation for your 51? I would consider him an authority on this and I'm sure he will clarify if I'm wrong.  I made my choice because I had a Camaro parts car from another project.

Your tape measure will be your best friend when choosing; measure frame rail width, frame rail height at ride height, track width and steering box location.

If I were in your shoes now I would drop the assembled HEMI into the stock engine compartment, reassemble the front clip and start measuring how much (if) you need to cut the firewall, steering shaft placement and exhaust clearance.  You can see in one of my prior pictures how close the headers are to the frame and steering shaft.  This wasn't luck it was careful planning.  If the Hemi has frame clearance issues, you will know what to look for in an donor clip.  

When installing a clip I always remove the springs and use threaded rod or some other semi permanent fixture to simulate ride height for ALL measurements.  Make sure measurements are taken with the car at desired ride height front and back using jack stands on the frame behind the cut area, the car is then not to be moved until the new clip is attached.  Use a plumb bob to mark your garage floor with a sharpie.  Always remember, the ball joints are not the front axle (spindle) centerline.  Take this measurement from the spindle!  Seen lots of tires located incorrectly because it was assumed the ball joint is the centerline.  Before you disassemble the donor vehicle, measure the angle of the upper control arm front to back at ride height near the frame attaching point.  this angle is critical for proper handling and is the anti-dive part of modern suspensions and needs to be duplicated on install.  You will probably find the upper control arm front to back angle 7-10 degrees up in front.  You could also take this measurement at a frame rail location just mark that location and use the same spot over and over.  This is one of the major improvements a modern suspension has over the stock front suspension.  In a nutshell, the frame not only has to be level side to side but there is a critical front to back angle that must be maintained, kind of like pinion angle.

Never say this is your last project, my dad is in his 70's and just finished a body-off 35 Ford build... 

Edited June 27, 2019 by Adam H P15 D30

[Adam H P15 D30]

On 6/25/2019 at 11:51 AM, Roger Toppenberg said:

Thanks Adam. I have always thought the late Camaro stubs were plenty wide and shied away from them versus using the earl style or a Nova however they are getting to be as hard to come by as finding teeth in a chicken around here. On the bright side ( excluding the radiator issues ) the front steer is much easier to work with in most cases. With the boxing I wasn't able to tell what was going on where the stub and the existing frame rails came together so thanks for the info concerning that also. Still in the planning stages of this one as it definitely would be a different cat to skin so I am grateful for all of the information and photos you have provided. A Hemi has a way of luring one into maybe more work and expense than most are willing or maybe should be dealing with when the engine compartments are as small and short as these cars have.  

Thanks

Roger

Thank you for the compliment, the idea is to make the graft as invisible as possible.

Nova subframes are rear steer and present more issues than a minor radiator support mod.

Anything will fit in anything, just depends on how adventurous you are with the angle grinder and welder