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Transmission Refresh, R10 Overdrive, Need some info.


Bmartin

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I have an R10 overdrive that has shifting issues in 2nd.  It’s a fresh rebuild, but it grinds into 2nd gear.  I picked up the Overdrive book from fifthavegarage but its different than what I have.  I’m guessing its geared more towards a Ford/Chevy/Lincoln.  Anyway, I got the OD off the trans, but the main shaft came with it. 

 

I’m looking for a manual that will apply to this specific transmission, I’m guessing its going to be a mopar manual from a car that this trans came in from the factory.  If someone could point me to the correct manual, that would be much appreciated.  Along those same lines, I’d like to find some parts for it.  I need a new gasket kit, possibly a rear output seal if that has to come out, and the welch plugs.  I’d also like to replace the sychronizer shifting plates if possible as they are showing a little wear.  The syncrhos look brand new.  I need to know where to find parts. 

 

When disassembling, I thought the spacer between the trans and OD would stay with the OD, but its bolted to the OD.  So when reassembling, I’d like to get the main shaft out of the OD and installed in the trans first.  Then put the OD on.  Seems it would be easier to get the roller bearings on the main shaft.  I’ll need the correct manual to do that safely. 

 

Lastly, I have a question on what this part is.  Its some sort of spring, but I can’t see it in either the manuals I have.  It was on the 2nd gear synchro. 

1884133556_20190408_184252(800x600).jpg.682f566ea60814e59e4a18ef77ed157a.jpg

 

All help is greatly appreciated.

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I recognize that part and it was the only part I could not obtain. I need to check my files on where I bought all my parts....they were good and had everything....except that. I believe it is part of a synchro.

 

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For one thing I never found a Mopar manual (or other source/brand) that told of one thing about the four screws that hold the OD adapter plate to the rest of the OD parts.  As Mopar for some reason decided to add those four screws (for strength??)  that makes the removing main shaft of the main box a requirement to separate  the OD section from the main box without the main shaft. (too wordy I'm sure but hope you get what is up!

R-10's made for others brands all built by B.W. did not have the extra 4 bolts as I can tell and therefore the OD section could be removed without removal of the main shaft. TOO bad it sure would make life much easier to work on the Mopar version.

 

DJ

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That spring is called a spreader spring. I've seen this in a 1951 Plymouth transmission. I don't remember my '49 synchro as having it, although the stop rings were the same. The only picture I can find is in the 1946-1954 Plymouth service manual, and only in the overall parts breakdown picture. They don't mention the  spreader spring at all in the synchro section, or the main shaft assembly section. The OD section does show two adapter (mid-plate) screws. 

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DSC09625_2.jpg

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22 hours ago, Bmartin said:

I have an R10 overdrive that has shifting issues in 2nd.  It’s a fresh rebuild, but it grinds into 2nd gear.  I picked up the Overdrive book from fifthavegarage but its different than what I have.  I’m guessing its geared more towards a Ford/Chevy/Lincoln.  Anyway, I got the OD off the trans, but the main shaft came with it. 

 

I’m looking for a manual that will apply to this specific transmission, I’m guessing its going to be a mopar manual from a car that this trans came in from the factory.  If someone could point me to the correct manual, that would be much appreciated.  Along those same lines, I’d like to find some parts for it.  I need a new gasket kit, possibly a rear output seal if that has to come out, and the welch plugs.  I’d also like to replace the sychronizer shifting plates if possible as they are showing a little wear.  The syncrhos look brand new.  I need to know where to find parts. 

 

When disassembling, I thought the spacer between the trans and OD would stay with the OD, but its bolted to the OD.  So when reassembling, I’d like to get the main shaft out of the OD and installed in the trans first.  Then put the OD on.  Seems it would be easier to get the roller bearings on the main shaft.  I’ll need the correct manual to do that safely. 

 

Lastly, I have a question on what this part is.  Its some sort of spring, but I can’t see it in either the manuals I have.  It was on the 2ndgear synchro. 

1884133556_20190408_184252(800x600).jpg.682f566ea60814e59e4a18ef77ed157a.jpg

 

All help is greatly appreciated.

Ill drop you a note.  Your into the 3 speed transmission side,  grinding going into 2nd has nothing to do with the overdrive.     The connection from the overdrive to the 3spd is the main shaft. I appreciate you are having problems but this isnt a DYI project and just coming up with a manual isnt going to turn this into a quick fix.   If it was grinding going into 2nd

its either clutch and pressure plate side or its the syncro in the transmission. If its a fresh rebuild I would expect someone had a look at the syncro.  What you have is a syncro

spring and it looks like it was ground going into 2nd until it was ripped apart.   Ill drop you a note but time to circle back to the rebuilder here and or I will find you some help

but right now its looking like a basket case 

 

 

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Thanks for all the replys!  

 

laynrubber:  If you could point mein the direction of a good source for parts, that would go a long way to helping me out.  Much appreciated.

 

DJ194950:  Sounds like I took it apart the way it has to go, so thats reassuring.  Ill just have to muscle it back together when the time comes.  At least I don't have to deal with the OD internals.  Thanks.  

 

rekbender:  That is extremely helpful!  Makes sense, since the other manual I have is for a 1940 Plymouth.  So its not there either.  Its definitely a part I'd like to swap to be safe.  It shows some wear, but I would be surprised if its the ulitmate reason for my issues.  

 

oldasdirt:  Looks like that spreader spring got introduce later on, so an older manual shown above is big help.  The OD worked great so no worries there, just wanted to make sure I was dissembling things correctly.  Its far from a basket case, I can get it back together in a couple hours with my buddies help. Just want to doublecheck if I can.  Thanks for the help.  

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   You will need a 3/4" rod or I used tubing to hold the bearings and thrust washer on the countershaft for installation. My tubes are 6 7/8" long and I have a 7 11/16". I put the countershaft in and push the short one through with the longer one. If all is well, I push the longer tube through with the shaft and key. I think I bought my bearing and gasket kit from Len Dawson at Deception Pass. Make sure all the bearings are in for the main shaft at the rear of the drive pinion. I use grease to hold them and then install snap ring.

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Although it has been to years since I rebuilt my 3 speed with overdrive the few things that were issues are as follows:

 

1. The second gear had too much clearance between it and the snap ring.  The main shaft where the second gear rides had worn as well.  I purchased an NOS second gear and there was still too much clearance. The main shaft wear.  I had to take the NOS second gear to an industrial chrome house and they built up the back side to take up the room.  Now the second gear was dead on lower end of the end play.  For 10 plus years now it has worked great and made no noise.

 

2. The spring you are looking for was used mainly on cars with fluid couplings as far as I can tell. But, I have seen it in some non-fluid coupling cars.  Its job is to slow down the shaft to allow the synchronizing to take place.  Apparently,  there is enough momentum that the main shaft is not slowing down fast enough. I got lucky and found two of them at a dealer that still had them in stock and I got them for $10!

 

3. On the overdrive. The sun gear and control plate. Mine were worn way beyond specification. The control plate works by friction. If, as in my case, the control plate has worn a groove into the sun gear it will not work correctly and you will have inconsistence OD engagement or no engagement. You either have to find a new set, very difficult, or have to get the sun gear welded, machined and then heat treated to fix it.

 

In my case I had purchased the unit as it was supposed to be as good as new.  I learned that one should just do it oneself and check all the specification and make sure everything is in spec.  I ended up doing that and the thing has run in City and Highway traffic for 10 years and 40K miles without fail since.

 

James.

 

PS.  I have lots of documentation that I can email directly to you if you shot me an address.

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This is just a thought. You mentioned in your original post that the spreader spring was on the second gear synchro. The service manual shows it behind the high gear stop ring and the clutch gear hub, not second.  i still have the '51 transmission in pieces, so I put the spreader ring behind the second gear stop ring and assembled the clutch gear to the main shaft. It could be assembled with the spring tabs either toward the clutch hub, or toward the stop ring. Either way, it does interfere the with the stop ring free movement, and would become deformed if the clutch gear snap ring was installed. Did  your transmission ever shift smoothly into second? First picture is spreader spring in the clutch hub hi gear side where it belongs. 2nd picture is the spring itself.

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DSC09631.jpg

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9 foot box:  thanks for the advice, I will look into that when I am ready to reassemble.  

 

James_Douglas:  Thanks for the background, I will PM you my email address.  I would love to have any and all info I can get.  The more literature I have as reference the better I can triple check everything.

 

rekbender:  I was incorrect, the spreader spring is in the clutch hub as you show.  Sorry for the confusion.  

 

Laynrubber:  Thanks, thats the second vote I've gotten for Northwest.  I'll be calling them tomorrow.

 

 

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I ran into an issue.  The Spreader Spring is not longer available from Northwest Transmission.  Does anyone have any other sources for this?  I'll try Ebay, but its unlikely I'll get that lucky.  

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The picture of that part you posted appears to be in great shape, better than what I have by a bit.

My R-10 trans works great with them so maybe they really do not need to be replaced. ??  ?

 

DJ

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On 4/8/2019 at 9:15 PM, Bmartin said:

I have an R10 overdrive that has shifting issues in 2nd.  It’s a fresh rebuild, but it grinds into 2nd gear.  I picked up the Overdrive book from fifthavegarage but its different than what I have.  I’m guessing its geared more towards a Ford/Chevy/Lincoln.  Anyway, I got the OD off the trans, but the main shaft came with it. 

 

I’m looking for a manual that will apply to this specific transmission, I’m guessing its going to be a mopar manual from a car that this trans came in from the factory.  If someone could point me to the correct manual, that would be much appreciated.  Along those same lines, I’d like to find some parts for it.  I need a new gasket kit, possibly a rear output seal if that has to come out, and the welch plugs.  I’d also like to replace the sychronizer shifting plates if possible as they are showing a little wear.  The syncrhos look brand new.  I need to know where to find parts. 

 

When disassembling, I thought the spacer between the trans and OD would stay with the OD, but its bolted to the OD.  So when reassembling, I’d like to get the main shaft out of the OD and installed in the trans first.  Then put the OD on.  Seems it would be easier to get the roller bearings on the main shaft.  I’ll need the correct manual to do that safely. 

 

All help is greatly appreciated.

I used to do a lot of standard trans work and can tell you that without exception, all the 3 spds,  Ford, Chev etc,  would not allow that red part.  The main shaft is assembled into the tail housing and then put in place .  Just take a look at the bushings, bearings etc behind the main case, in the rear housing.  Almost impossible to hold the mainshaft in place while installing those because the snap ring is in front of the bearing.

 

Usually the cluster with bearings and a dummy shaft is just laid in the bottom of the case.  Then the main drive gear and mainshaft are married along with the synchros and sliding gears.  The bearings in the back of the MDG are held in place with heavy grease.  The old fibrous wheel bearing grease works well there and in the cluster.

Edited by kencombs
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Nicely,  Ken, I ask you if you have ever worked on a rebuild for a Mopar R-10G transmission rebuild on a Mopar?

 

Even the Mopar R-10-G is slightly different than the the other brands R-10's. They were made by Borg-Warner for almost all American brands of autos of the era with small differences per Mfg.'s specs.

 

The Mopar units are one if not the most difficult to disassemble and reassemble due to the need to pull the main shaft from the main box to remove the OD section! Believe Me,  I learned how rebuilding 2 without any early trans rebuilding experience! But I do have many years of mechanical experience. Not the most fun job doing it alone in my garage!

 

Not to say anything in the way of your vast std. rebuild experience!

 

DJ

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1 hour ago, DJ194950 said:

Nicely,  Ken, I ask you if you have ever worked on a rebuild for a Mopar R-10G transmission rebuild on a Mopar?

 

Even the Mopar R-10-G is slightly different than the the other brands R-10's. They were made by Borg-Warner for almost all American brands of autos of the era with small differences per Mfg.'s specs.

 

The Mopar units are one if not the most difficult to disassemble and reassemble due to the need to pull the main shaft from the main box to remove the OD section! Believe Me,  I learned how rebuilding 2 without any early trans rebuilding experience! But I do have many years of mechanical experience. Not the most fun job doing it alone in my garage!

 

Not to say anything in the way of your vast std. rebuild experience!

 

DJ

Yep, I've worked on them, but it's been l o t s of years!

 

1 hour ago, DJ194950 said:

 

 

It's not really accurate to refer to them as 'Mopar R10G' transmissions.  They are just a Mopar transmission with a BW R-10 added. In later years they were R10-Js.    Ford, Studebaker, Chevy, et al all did that.  The only real differences in the transmission in all cases was the addition of a hole allowing the interlock shaft to block reverse and a special mainshaft to adapt the OD input to the trans output. All the work in the main case, MDG, cluster, 1/Rev sliding gear etc is identical.

The OD does make the alignment/guiding together issue worse due to the weight and bulk.  But the task at it's core is still mating a extension housing/shaft assembly to the main case.

I don't recall any OD units that could be removed intact from the transmission itself.  It can be disassembled while on the trans, but that is a terrible way to work on it.  Much easier to deal with two assemblies.

Here is a pic of a Ford unit that I grabbed of the net.  As you can see, even their mainshaft's rear portion was integral to the OD, and locked into the adapter plate with a bearing with a lock ring front and rear.

Edit to add:

I don't mean to trivialize the task.  I had the advantage of working with my Dad.  He repaired and rebuilt literally thousands of standard shifts from 60 through 90.  Broken low/rev sliders and clusters along with Chevies the wouldn't stay in high gear coasting made him a lot of money!  He knew every trick and shortcut in the book, and some that weren't.  So I got the benefit of his experience.  He could have removed all gears and replaced them while I was typing this book.

image.png.d360c1ad4600e41048b172e9e524dc42.png

 

 

Edited by kencombs
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Thanks for the input.  I realize now that I'll be muscling it all back together as a unit.  Perhaps that is the easiest route as it avoids any dissection of the OD itself.  If I can't find a spreader spring, then I'll clean this one up a bit and use it.  The back side has some wear marks in it that I can easily catch with my finger nail.  

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Do make sure that the second gear is well within the specification clearance wise. Like I said in my other post, the gear slides onto the main shaft and stops at the "flute" where the low reverse sliding gear rides.  It is held in by a snap ring. Even with an NOS gear and NOS largest size snap ring it had too much clearance. The back of the gear I had built up by hard chrome to get it into the low end of the clearance specification. The little thrust area on the main shaft wears and I could not find a NOS main shaft.

 

It now has about 40K hard miles on it now and is dead quiet.  I think that the second gear is more sensitive to clearance that is commonly thought.  This is however an opinion so take it for what it is worth. I also dump the oil and refill the trans every 2 or 3 years.

 

James.

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Hello,

Contact George Asche  1693 Fertigs Rd.  Venus, Pa 16364  814-354-2621 

He rebuilds Borg-Warner Overdrives, He is 86 yrs old and still does the rebuilds. He helped me with my 48 Plymouth with a 53 Plymouth Borg-Warner R-10. It works great!

 

Good Luck!

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