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questions about paint


Los_Control

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I wanted to pick your brains on a paint question, for a off topic dodge dakota.

My goal here is to practice painting. Use this old beater with a heater to learn on. Then when I paint my pilothouse, it wont be my very first paint experience.

I also wanted to use the same single stage enamel/paint colors as I want on my pilothouse.

Is the Dakota worth painting? Absolutely not. I plan to use it to go to the dump, a cheap economical beater to run around town with, looks fine as is.

 

As a learning tool, to get use to mixing / thinning / spraying /masking etc ... is worth it to me.

Also to see how the colors work together, if I want to two tone my pilothouse or not.

 

And my question is, 1994 Dodges of this era had bad primer and the paint peeled on them.

The truck is red with a wide silver stripe down the side, The silver is peeling and bare primer spots showing, red is fine but clear coat peeling from age and weather.

I plan to convert the two stage silver stripe, to single stage black enamel.

Since the paint failed from the factory and primer was to blame, anyone know what steps are required to paint over the primer?

 

Would sanding the clear coat, remove all loose base color and sand exposed primer be enough?

I know I am over simplifying the steps, but would scuffing/sanding the original primer be enough for new paint to stick?

 

Sorry for long winded post over simple question on primer, I thought a explanation to the insanity of painting it in the first place might help.

 

IMG_20190315_093527418_HDR.jpg.6cbed41beffa444f671eba874fa4dc86.jpg

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I would think that scuffing/sanding the existing primer and clear would be enough for single stage to stick and cover.  In my past painting experiences (all done in the garage at house) I've used the single stage over rattle can primer that had been sanded with 220.  Of course I wasn't looking for a trailer queen.  I built em for driving and enjoying.

My 2 cents.

Eric

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17 minutes ago, CO54 said:

I built em for driving and enjoying.

Thanks for the vote of confidence .... I would think if a guy properly prepared the surface it would work.

But I do not know why the paint really failed in the first place, other then there was a recall on them because of the primer.

Here is a better photo, you can see that I can not hurt it if I do a bad job.

I paid $300 for the truck with lost title, cost me $100 to get title.

It has 142k miles on it, runs really well, but needs major maintenance, belts, hoses,fluid changes, tires, tuneup.

And since I really dont care about it, is a perfect victim to practice my painting skills  :P

IMG_20190315_104744960.jpg

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Give it a shot....If nothing else a good learning experience.

Wish my run around beater was a truck, but for $600 and a clean title, the little PT Cruiser "$hit Shaker" gets the job done for me as a commuter.  Wifey took over my Jeep..... funny how that works.

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Since you are only looking to learn how to paint, not do a job to last for the ages,I certainly would go ahead and do the job as you plan. I used to use Acrylic Enamel when I painted cars about 30 years ago and achieved fairly good success.

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Looking at your pictures and not knowing firsthand of the details of the paint recall you mention, I suggest the the problem was not with the primer, but the adhesion of the color base coat to the primer.  If the primer failed I'd expect to see bare, rusty steel, and I think I just see primer.  I would recommend you sand and feather the loose and peeling areas to factory primer, wipe it down  with Prep sol, and scuff the whole truck and wipe it down again.  Then start with the primer you intend to use on your pilot house.  My point is, learning how to spray paint is less than half the experience you need - paint hides nothing;  you need to practice prep work, too, if you care about how your "good" truck turns out.  I've been hobby painting for more than 50 years and I am still  (un)pleasantly surprised by what ham-handed prep work shows through the color.

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14 minutes ago, RNR1957NYer said:

I've been hobby painting for more than 50 years and I am still  (un)pleasantly surprised by what ham-handed prep work shows through the color.

Yes thank you, exactly what I am thinking.

I created a few careers in my lifetime and know what experience means. We can read, watch, listen .... without getting your hands dirty you wont get it.

 

My father inlaw use to buy new mopars, he had several, brother inlaw still has the 1976 duster his dad bought new. Was a 1995 dodge he bought new and the paint failed, he was not covered by the recall, and he drives jap cars today because of it .... sad story.

Being ignorant, I was told years ago it was the primer that was the issue.

As you say it is the base coat that peeled off of the primer.

Either way, the issue is 25 years old, and was wondering if others had suggestions before I painted it. Any special steps to do.

 

I am going with proper prep and paint as normal.

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I think that's wise.  If the Dak was going to be a 'forever' paint job, the answer to the paint failure problem would be to take it down to bare metal and start over.  Since it's your practice "canvas", your concession is not wasting the time taking all the paint off - maybe it peels some more under your new paint later on, maybe it doesn't.  But you will have honed some skills, and be stylin' on the way to the dump in the meantime!

 

I actually have more patience for body work than mechanical work.  I also have the rustiest '97 Dakota in metro Boston.

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I think the paint failures where not really the primer.  the top coat did not contain enough sunblocking ingredient, whatever they use for that.  the sunlight penetrated the top coat and damaged the primer.  Sort of like a skin of oxidation like  you often see on paint, but under the clear and topcoat between the undamaged primer and the clear/top.  The topcoat couldn't adhere to that oxidation so peeled off.  At least that's what I've read in several normally good sources.

 

As a matter of fact, I had a 87 1/2 Nissan PU with silver and blue paint.  All the silver peeled off but the blue was still in great shape.  Sort of supports the theory above.  Silver allowed sun penetration, dark blue did not.

 

I agree that good prep down to solid paint or primer should be fine.  But, I would follow that prep with an epoxy primer mixed as a sealer before 2k primer and final paint.

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52 minutes ago, RNR1957NYer said:

Looking at your pictures and not knowing firsthand of the details of the paint recall you mention, I suggest the the problem was not with the primer, but the adhesion of the color base coat to the primer.  If the primer failed I'd expect to see bare, rusty steel, and I think I just see primer.  I would recommend you sand and feather the loose and peeling areas to factory primer, wipe it down  with Prep sol, and scuff the whole truck and wipe it down again.  Then start with the primer you intend to use on your pilot house.  My point is, learning how to spray paint is less than half the experience you need - paint hides nothing;  you need to practice prep work, too, if you care about how your "good" truck turns out.  I've been hobby painting for more than 50 years and I am still  (un)pleasantly surprised by what ham-handed prep work shows through the color.

Agree with all of that, except the red.  It not only doesn't hide:  It magnifies every flaw!

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Old rodder's quote: "If it's perfect, paint it black" (my P12 is black, and ain't perfect).

 

In doing prep work, if there is one thing to remember it's this:  If you can feel it, you'll see it - in spades!

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3 minutes ago, RNR1957NYer said:

Old rodder's quote: "If it's perfect, paint it black" (my P12 is black, and ain't perfect).

 

My 49 pilothouse is black, I like to keep it original, same time in west texas black with no air conditioning will be hot and un-drive-able.

Hoping to change the cab color to red, keep fenders/running boards black, and maybe will be a few degrees cooler driving it in summer.

 

I really just want a practice run at spraying/prep work before painting my real truck.

Even my chevy truck needs the hood touched up on base color and then clear coat worked over ... I want practice first..

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the problem with the introduction of BC/CC and still why it fails today is in allowing one to flash before the other goes on.....you do not have time to shoot a base coat then clean the same gun and shoot with clear coat before you bust you window of adhesion...unfortunately many new cars suffered a bad name do to improper application of paint and not so much the paint itself.   Think back a bit if you will of a major development in paint before BC/CC, the Imron  line.   All problems associated with that product was end user not using/mixing properly.   As for the later cars and peeling paint, the makers tap danced around this as it would have cost them too much of their profits to address in a timely and fair manner back to the consumer.  This practice exist today....in any product of mass quantity with mass problems in any given scenario....just think air bag issues if you can't come up with an example on your own.  The buck always is at the consumer payout level.

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As noted a few times above, the proof is in the preparation.  If the primer hasn't come off already, it probably won't anytime soon.  I'd suggest you take this opportunity to practice with the most important part of a good paint job, and that's preparation - everything before the color coats.  With those flaws, that Dakota looks like a perfect canvas to practice a few things on, as you mentioned.  You can work from that factory color coat, from the factory primer, and even take a panel or two down to bare metal and start from there.  Don't do the whole truck at one time, but practice techniques on different parts of it, maybe even make a harlequin truck out of it.  The drudgery of painting cars is in the preparation, once you're ready to spray color it goes quick.  I've grown a tad fond of urethane primer, it's good for any type of paint, sands easily, and doesn't require a seal coat.  I've only ever used acrylic enamel for single stage color coats, always with good results.  I'm not opposed to two stage, just never used it (yet).

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.......You have up to 12-16 hours for a chemical bond between bc/cc. if you go longer, you need a mechanical bond (sanding).

Most failures are due to improper prep and this is even true of manufacturers.  The 90's saw very thin color and clear coats to save money and pollution numbers.

It led to early clear coat failures. In the case of the home job, not sanding primers properly leads to adhesion problems. Most people I know who paint at home really miss this part.

Color is high maintenance, it needs a well sanded surface to grab it right. Wet sanding 400-600 is tedious and a pain in the ass....but necessary.

 

IMO......

Zero in on the hood. Why? its flat.

 

PRIMER PREP

Sand it with 80, 120......shoot 2 coats of Epoxy primer (high in resin, not ideal for sanding)

This will seal it off from the next layer so it doesn't react with the new chemicals coming its way. 

 

PRIMER SHAPE

Shoot several coats of Urethane primer(sanding and shaping qualities),  let it dry over several hours.

Shoot a guide coat....a real can called "guide coat" ....a can of black paint defeats the purpose.

Guide coat is your friend...it doesn't lie...it will show you where you didn't sand, and it wont steal your beer.

Start with 220, finish with minimum of 400.

Blow it off, wax and grease it (since this is a practice piece you can use windex ) 

Shoot a thin coat of Epoxy coat as a sealer, let it gas off 30 mins

 

COLOR (base coat..bc)

Shoot the edges first, not going to thick.

Shoot color on the hood in an even manner not worrying about complete coverage...just blush it out and "drag" across the edges again.

Shoot a second coat 30 mins later, execute complete coverage.

Shoot a third coat 30 mins later, crossing up the first pattern slightly and watching for evenness, flow and coverage.

let is gas off for several hours and fix all the mistakes that snuck in because you don't have a spray booth.

Brush touch, fish eye, to thick, sags, bugs....fix'em all.

spray any small repair areas out and be careful not to over coat it. Just feather it back in.

 

CLEAR (clear coat..cc)

Spraying clear is like spraying single stage color.

You need to watch it flow, and grow together with each pass.

Learn to be direct and in control of the flow.

Don't try and spot it in, use big long flowing motions.

It will allow the clear to flow together much better and avoid dry areas that need lots of sanding.

Clear is usually 3 coats so its thick enough to cut and buff..... another crappy job.

If you flow your clear right, it will reduce the pain of doing that job.

 

Reasons I say a hood:  Its a flat surface to spray (doors are vertical etc), its big enough to practice sweeping the gun and a large enough surface to better judge your work.

 

Good luck!

 

48D

 

 

  

  

 

 

  

 

 

     

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Forgot to mention:  The Dakota is much easier to paint than the older truck.  It has mostly flat areas, bed sides, hood, fenders doors.  The older, better lookin' truck has lots of curves (and we all know curves look better), where flat panels meet up with angles and curves.  Much harder to maintain the smooth gun motion that helps with even paint distribution.

 

That's why I prefer to paint fenders off the truck if using non-metallic paint.  Metallics are hard to get right if not sprayed together. 

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38 minutes ago, kencombs said:

The Dakota is much easier to paint than the older truck.

I like easy, which is why I am going to paint the pilothouse with single stage enamel. Paint everything like the fenders and bed rails while the truck is disassembled.

I am not going to remove the cab from the frame, will be something will have to work around.

The truck will be painted in stages,  Right now am working on the front 1/2, dog house is off and prepping for paint, in process of detailing the frame, motor, firewall, core support.

When is put back together, will start it up and turn it around in the car port, and disassemble the bed and work on the rear 1/2 of the truck.

And in the end after all is painted and put back together, I expect to have to go back and fix issues, scratches from assembly bugs etc... and paint the truck one more time with it assembled.

I could never get away with this using a 2 stage BC/CC

Also the enamel has a old school look to it, the look I want for the pilothouse. It will work perfect on the old truck.

 

My pilothouse is black from the factory.

I want to paint the cab, doors, hood, bed sides red.

The front/rear fenders, grille, running boards black.

 

The enamel is my paint of choice to use on the Dakota. This is the paint I want to practice with, thinning, mixing, spraying, two tone etc...

We are talking ~$30 a gallon at Ace hardware or Tractor supply.

I want to see what the $30 paint looks like, does the red and black from tractor supply work together? Is it the paint I want,  before I spray it on.

 

Again, the pilothouse it will look like it is original and belongs there. The easiest paint to work with .... 

 

The Dakota is a new school truck with old school paint, is going to look like a pig wearing lipstick.

As is, it simply looks like a pig. Soooo?

 

Anyways we will see how it goes, I parked the pilothouse alongside the garage last night and parked the dakota in its place, to start working on it.

Still to cold to paint, warming up next week and even more following week. So can get some prep work done.

 

 

 

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Los_,

 

You are talking about using a acrylic enamel aren't you??

 

The Real old enamels were a real Bitch to spray without runs!

 

I Did have  some experience with those. Glad they are not in general use if at all anymore! ?

 

DJ

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JMO, but IME I think you will find a urethane enamel to be the best choice for home use.  It gets out of the tacky, anything will stick to it stage much faster.  Much easier to repair runs or other damage.  Sands and buffs really well .  Old school enamels never get really hard enough to cut and buff.  And have to age a lot longer to do any repair work.

And they are not really that more difficult to spray.

However, there is a price difference, especially in reds.  One of the better lower priced brands, IMO is Kirker.  their epoxy primer is very good, easy to mix as it 1:1 and sands fairly well after curing.  Some epoxies gum the paper really badly.  There are Kirker dealers on the net along with color charts.

 

One of the big shortcomings of the 30 buck enamels is fade.  I've seen some very nice red tractors last year, that are pink now!

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Do your practice painting on the Dakota with the same brand and type of paint you plan to use on your good truck.  All brands and types of paint within those brands spray differently.  Use your practice time to acclimate yourself to how the paint for your good truck prefers to be sprayed.  As far as prepping the Dakota,  wax and grease removal before you start the initial sanding so you don't grind that stuff into it and a good bath (do not use car wash soaps at this point- most contain waxes), use blocks for sanding, longer blocks for flatter areas, x patterns, long strokes.  I use a powdered guide coat for dry sanding and the spray guide coat for wet sanding.

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