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Steering Box for 46 Plymouth Special Deluxe


shedhouselife

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If you can find a new steering box then go for it..............my 1st question is why did it suddenly go loose..........have you checked all the connections, ie, tie rods, steering arms, etc.........visually check that the steering box works, ie, there is no movement of the actual box that shouldn't be there when you turn the wheel.....have you tried adjusting the slack out of the box?................I've never heard of the worm breaking.........wearing yes, but not breaking............more info needed.............andyd 

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Do some investigation before getting a new steering box, that can be expensive.  As Andyd noted, something could simply have worked loose over the years.  You didn't mention where the slack is, and six inches is a lot at the steering box, but quite so much (but still not good) at either end of the steering, like the wheels or steering wheel.  If there is slack, but still engaging somewhere, could be tie rod end(s) loosened, the connection to the steering arm could have come loose, or the worm gear could have even loosened on the shaft (they're pressed on).  The adjustment screw could have worked all the way out (into the box), there should be a star shaped lock washer on it, if not there it would loosen up quite a bit over time.  The "suddenly"  and "slack" makes me think something is loose, as opposed to broken.  Make sure everything is still where it's supposed to be, and go through the adjustment procedures firs.  

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Thanks a lot guys. I recently bought the car and the steering and brakes worked well. Then I was driving it and suddenly the steering went loose. 5 to 6 inches on the steering wheel. Then a week later the front end started vibrating and it felt as though the front right brake piston was sticking. I changed the old front tires to new tires to start bottom up. I took it on the road yesterday. The car pulled back and forth at 25 mph like a speed wobble. 

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2 hours ago, Dan Hiebert said:

Do some investigation before getting a new steering box, that can be expensive.  As Andyd noted, something could simply have worked loose over the years.  You didn't mention where the slack is, and six inches is a lot at the steering box, but quite so much (but still not good) at either end of the steering, like the wheels or steering wheel.  If there is slack, but still engaging somewhere, could be tie rod end(s) loosened, the connection to the steering arm could have come loose, or the worm gear could have even loosened on the shaft (they're pressed on).  The adjustment screw could have worked all the way out (into the box), there should be a star shaped lock washer on it, if not there it would loosen up quite a bit over time.  The "suddenly"  and "slack" makes me think something is loose, as opposed to broken.  Make sure everything is still where it's supposed to be, and go through the adjustment procedures firs.  

I will check all steering connections and box as you suggested. Thanks very much.

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13 hours ago, Andydodge said:

If you can find a new steering box then go for it..............my 1st question is why did it suddenly go loose..........have you checked all the connections, ie, tie rods, steering arms, etc.........visually check that the steering box works, ie, there is no movement of the actual box that shouldn't be there when you turn the wheel.....have you tried adjusting the slack out of the box?................I've never heard of the worm breaking.........wearing yes, but not breaking............more info needed.............andyd 

Hi. Thanks for your tips. I did try adjusting the box and it is all the way tight. Where it would be to adjust for zero slack. What should I look for if I have someone turning steering wheel so I can watch under the hood?

Edited by shedhouselife
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I can't add much to the advice already given other than to ask if you replaced all four tires. Maybe you have a bad tire. A loose belt in a radial can cause squirrelly steering and if you only replaced the fronts and have a mix of radial and bias ply tires it's only going to be worse. Otherwise, support the front end on jack stands, and it wouldn't hurt to put something else somewhere under the frame to make sure it doesn't fall on you; then rock each wheel left to right and up and down to see if you can figure out where that slack came from. 

Nice looking car!!

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"What should I look for if I have someone turning steering wheel so I can watch under the hood? "

 

You will need to get on the ground as someone works the steering wheel. There is a pitman arm attached to the steering box that translates the steering wheel input into left and right movement. That arm is short and exits from the steering box, and is fairly easy to identify. It should move with no slack in synch with the steering wheel.

From the pitman arm, just follow the motion to the various linkages which finally attach to each front wheel.

Do this inspection with the wheels on the ground.

If it all looks ok from the pitman arm outwards, then you may indeed have something wrong in the box itself. Each movement of the steering wheel should transmit precisely to the pitman arm, with no slack if the box is ok.

 

I'll bet it becomes pretty obvious what is out of whack. This sounds pretty serious. Don't drive it until you find the problem.

Edited by jeffsunzeri
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Apart from the steering box with the worm and roller assembly that does wear but it would be unusual to have a singular failure resulting in 6" slack.......... there are tapered roller bearings above and below the worm/roller assembly then a dog boned shape pitman arm with a pair of tierod ends and another tierod end on end end of the tie rod, a total of 4 tierod ends, they tend to wear progressively although I suppose if they get to the point of extreme wear they would exhibit a large amount of slack tho' its hard to see how it could become evident overnight or suddenly, unless they came apart then you'd have no steering.............I'd be checking the steering box adjustment carefully also a good look at the tierod ends and replacing them if needed...............another thing thats rarely mentioned is the rubber steering box Isolators that fit between the steering box and chassis and on the outside of the chassis as well..........they tend to slowly disintergrate over time due to oil etc softening them and allow the steering box to move when they are worn......replacing them does go some way to getting rid of a "wandering" feeling in the steering but they again are not something that just "breaks" so I'd be doubtful if they were the culprit................we are all curious..............regards from Oz..........andyd  

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On 2/5/2019 at 2:28 PM, Andydodge said:

Apart from the steering box with the worm and roller assembly that does wear but it would be unusual to have a singular failure resulting in 6" slack.......... there are tapered roller bearings above and below the worm/roller assembly then a dog boned shape pitman arm with a pair of tierod ends and another tierod end on end end of the tie rod, a total of 4 tierod ends, they tend to wear progressively although I suppose if they get to the point of extreme wear they would exhibit a large amount of slack tho' its hard to see how it could become evident overnight or suddenly, unless they came apart then you'd have no steering.............I'd be checking the steering box adjustment carefully also a good look at the tierod ends and replacing them if needed...............another thing thats rarely mentioned is the rubber steering box Isolators that fit between the steering box and chassis and on the outside of the chassis as well..........they tend to slowly disintergrate over time due to oil etc softening them and allow the steering box to move when they are worn......replacing them does go some way to getting rid of a "wandering" feeling in the steering but they again are not something that just "breaks" so I'd be doubtful if they were the culprit................we are all curious..............regards from Oz..........andyd  

Thanks so much! You guys are awesome. I had a friend turn the steering wheel while I was under the car. As soon as my friend got through 3 inches of slack turning right all of the steering arms were tight. Only the joints rolled slightly with no play. Same thing to the left. I have two new tires up front and will have two new on rear Saturday -- all matching tires btw. I checked the steering box adjuster and it was tightened all the way to the right. But I haven't jacked the car up yet. I will do that Saturday and pull on the wheels a bit. Thanks again to all for helping me isolate this problem.  I was also thinking of a front brakes upgrade while I am working on front end. Do you think that's wise?

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54 minutes ago, shedhouselife said:

Thanks so much! You guys are awesome. I had a friend turn the steering wheel while I was under the car. As soon as my friend got through 3 inches of slack turning right all of the steering arms were tight. Only the joints rolled slightly with no play. Same thing to the left. I have two new tires up front and will have two new on rear Saturday -- all matching tires btw. I checked the steering box adjuster and it was tightened all the way to the right. But I haven't jacked the car up yet. I will do that Saturday and pull on the wheels a bit. Thanks again to all for helping me isolate this problem.  I was also thinking of a front brakes upgrade while I am working on front end. Do you think that's wise?

 

Did the pitman arm move during that 3" of steering wheel play?

"Only the joints rolled slightly with no play."

That statement leads me to think you have loose tie rod ends, or drag link ends.

Edited by Merle Coggins
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2 hours ago, Merle Coggins said:

 

Did the pitman arm move during that 3" of steering wheel play?

"Only the joints rolled slightly with no play."

That statement leads me to think you have loose tie rod ends, or drag link ends.

No movement on the pitman arm while moving through 3 in of slack.

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These old Mopars do not have a coupler in the steering shaft.  It is a solid steel rod from the steering wheel into the steering box.  If you have 6" of play at the steering wheel and the pitman arm is not moving then the slack is in the steering box.

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"I was also thinking of a front brakes upgrade while I am working on front end. Do you think that's wise?"

 

No.

If it were a Chevy or Ford, yes. Their brakes are sub-standard.

The brakes on the P15 are excellent, double-leading shoe brakes that perform very, very well especially when you have a modern radial tire on them.

Just make sure the brakes are in good working condition and adjust them every 10,000 miles or so and you'll be fine.

 

Discs are easier to maintain, but then so's a Toyota. You don't want a Toyota do you?

 

Also doing an "upgrade" has a number of downsides for very little benefit.

Some will say "MY discs saved my life!!! If it weren't for my groovy disc conversion, I'd be implanted in the back of a Peterbilt right now!!"

Baloney.

 

Your P15 brakes are excellent as they are.

 

 

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2 hours ago, rhelm1953 said:

These old Mopars do not have a coupler in the steering shaft.  It is a solid steel rod from the steering wheel into the steering box.  If you have 6" of play at the steering wheel and the pitman arm is not moving then the slack is in the steering box. 

Sorry all, I agree with rhelm 1953, Looks like straight shaft with no flexible coupler so it has to be a steering box issue if the pitman does not turn when the steering wheel does. The only exception would be at the steering wheel itself if it has a key or spline that is loose or worn.  

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Veemoney raises an interesting point re a loose steering wheel.......when I got the 41 Plymouth the steering wheel was loose to the extent that the wheel moved forward and back on the column about 3/8th inch...........I had bought the car without seeing it as it was 2000miles away tho I had pics that gave a good impression of its overall condition....anyway I took it off the transport truck and drove it straight into my garage........the 1st thing I checked was the steering wheel and found the nut held on to the shaft by 2 threads instead of there being 2 or 3 threads past the ends of the nut......apparently the PO was trying to get the horn working again and just forgot to tighten the nut..........lol.........anyway keep us in the loop re what you find..........andyd 

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Today, I took my 48 Plymouth's cross shaft out of the steering box to examine the cross shaft gear and the worm gear. If you have a lot of play in your steering, I would check one thing. The adjustment screw on top of the steering box may have backed out a bit, as it presses down on the cross shaft to take the play out of the steering. I really don't see how it could, but you never know. if the nut that locks the screw in place worked itself loose, that would allow the adjustment screw to back out. That would give you a bunch of play. Just something to check.

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Just tightened the slack in mine.

 It was at least 6inches.  Before . Took the cap off the btm. Timken.

  I think that was  a  mistake. Shims all 

Selfdestructed. Ended having to replace

  With my own gasket..

 

   With the adjuster on top steering tightened up to one inch .free play.  Should I go less ?

   there was zero slop in any of the linkage.  Will not be able to road test 

 for months.

   topped  up with GL . Was pretty thirsty

 

 

 

 

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Thanks for everything guys. Tomorrow weather willing i am going to check out a number of things. Is the horn ring assembly hard to get off? I would like to check to see if the wheel is loose. I have actually run into thus problem twice. On a Studebaker sitting on an S10 chassis the steering had an inch of play. I tightened the steering wheel nut and the result was zero slop. Btw how much play should the 46 Special Deluxe have at the wheel?

Edited by shedhouselife
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20 hours ago, rhelm1953 said:

These old Mopars do not have a coupler in the steering shaft.  It is a solid steel rod from the steering wheel into the steering box.  If you have 6" of play at the steering wheel and the pitman arm is not moving then the slack is in the steering box.

Ok. Do you recommend pulling the steering box out and rebuilding? 

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Another thought... Don't the cars have a rubber isolation on the steering box mount to the frame? On my truck it's mounted solid, but I recall some discussion about an isolation mount for the cars. Could this have failed suddenly allowing the whole steering box to move side to side. That could act similar to having a lot of play within the box. You said that the pitman arm doesn't move when taking up the play in the steering wheel, but was the steering gear box moving?

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3 hours ago, shedhouselife said:

Ok. Do you recommend pulling the steering box out and rebuilding? 

I think Cold Blue has the right idea with checking the pre load adjustment.  The symptoms you describe, the free paly in the steering wheel and the speed wobble remind me of an old Datsun 510 I had.  Same symptoms, a small adjustment on the preload screw and it all went away.  Check the service manual for the correct procedure, follow it and it that does not correct the problem then you are looking at a steering box rebuild.  When you check the preload also check the fluid level.  My bet is on th preload being wrong, the steering boxes are pretty tough.

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