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1946 Dodge fluid drive clutch replacement


brooklynbeer

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They  come out with the plate installed. Thrlower bushing is a .560" and the upper a .995" bushing (9/16" and 1.00")

If you don't have the correct tools and you don't ...hydraulic them out.

Carefully pack grease in the lower bushing cavity with the thickest grease you can get and use a 9/16" steel or hard wood dowel and force it out first.

Then pack the whole cavity with grease again with as few air pockets as possible and force the upper larger bushing out with a 1" dowel. 

There are blind bushing removal tools for deep reach if you can locate them and remove them that way too.

 

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Make it a accurate slight friction fit....makes em come out quicker easier and try not to trap air in the grease or yea... try bread.

 Maybe corn bread?

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Well, I got a problem.  I don't know if this a later model fluid drive unit or what but here is what I have found.  Had to get 5/8 dowel to turn down to 9/16 for the lower bushing. Well the lower bushing is not even close to being 9/16.  A 5/8 dowel will just fall right in and rattle around.  It seems closer to 7/8th.  Opened up the bag with the new one and the bushing I got from Bernbaum looks to be same size already installed. The tip of the input shaft on the tranny is 9/16.  The top bushing might be wallowed out but it is more 1 and 1/16 or a tad bigger.  It looks to be held under by the nut on the friction plate so that will have to be removed.  What am I not seeing? 

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I just received the new upper bushing from motor city speed works and I had also bought another pilot bushing as a matched set. This pilot bushing slides on the input shaft nicely and is the correct 9/16. The center bronze colored. Yet in my fluid drive unit is the size larger pictured on left side of the picture. The far right bushing is the upper shaft bushing. Now I am really confused.  If there is a pilot bushing already installed and I remove it then the new one that fits the input tip will rattle around.  Also the new one that fits the tip doesn't feel like it can slide into what is already there. (They forgot to put one in ?) Like one was not installed previously.  This could go a ways to explaining why the bearing retainer broke.  Now before I go and turn down the new correct pilot bushing that has the proper inside dimensions a couple 100ths on the outside to slide into what already is installed in the fluid coupler, can anyone give me some type of logical answer as to why I have 2 different size pilot bushings and neither one will work though ordered for the same car ?

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Here's the factory 1946-48 Dodge parts book sizing on the front and rear FD coupling bushings...

Don't know what's up with the situation you have.

I've had a 42 DeSoto loose both bushings before and was quickly able to clean the hub out and press in both small and big bushings... that car squealed with the worn out loose bushings.

All FD coupling bushings front and rear  fit all MoPar cars from 1941-1954.

IMG_2971.JPG

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2 hours ago, brooklynbeer said:

Well, I got a problem.  I don't know if this a later model fluid drive unit or what but here is what I have found.  Had to get 5/8 dowel to turn down to 9/16 for the lower bushing. Well the lower bushing is not even close to being 9/16.  A 5/8 dowel will just fall right in and rattle around.  It seems closer to 7/8th.  Opened up the bag with the new one and the bushing I got from Bernbaum looks to be same size already installed. The tip of the input shaft on the tranny is 9/16.  The top bushing might be wallowed out but it is more 1 and 1/16 or a tad bigger.  It looks to be held under by the nut on the friction plate so that will have to be removed.  What am I not seeing? 

I forgot that the FD driven plate nut does need to come off.... sorry bout that.

You are going to have to maesure accurately the two FD hub bushing bores to see that they are not damaged (enlarged) Special tools to measure that deep .812" approx. diameter bushing hole.

If the new bushings don't just drop in and require a driver the FD coupling hub bore is most likely OK... but clean the hub up well to see down in there.

Removing that driven plate nut can be tough as it's kinda thin and a reular socket might want to skip over the nut.

Looks like you are in for a ride!

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Don't turn down any bushings.....

The middle bronze bushing and the one on the right in your last picture should properly fit over your trans input shaft. 

If so those have to be the ones regardlee of whats in your FD coupling.

I think someone might have installed the wrong inner bushing (way too big of ID)

Have you pulled that lower inner bushing out?

The bushing on the left in your picture kinda looks like a std 3 speed bushing with out the FD coupling

Commonly used on a Plymouth

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9 minutes ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

I forgot that the FD driven plate nut does need to come off.... sorry bout that.

You are going to have to maesure accurately the two FD hub bushing bores to see that they are not damaged (enlarged) Special tools to measure that deep .812" approx. diameter bushing hole.

If the new bushings don't just drop in and require a driver the FD coupling hub bore is most likely OK... but clean the hub up well to see down in there.

Removing that driven plate nut can be tough as it's kinda thin and a reular socket might want to skip over the nut.

Looks like you are in for a ride!

Yeah looks like it but at least with the oversize pilot bushing I know what to do with it.  No different then when I have to take down journals on rifle barrels to make a 1949 Russian press into a 1982 Romanian trunion. Do that all the time. If I screw it up I know where to get another bushing. But I will clean out the the FD hole good first. My mic has a dead battery and can't size up things right now.  I will design some tool to get that nut off.   Who was the guy that said old cars are so much more simple to work on ?

 

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OK, so down there in the bottom is another bushing that the pilot bushing is supposed to slide into?  I have not removed that bushing if indeed there is another bushing down there. Initially I looked into the FD unit I really thought someone forgot to install a pilot bushing. When it was not 9/16th I backed off to find answers. What is that called?  And does it come out the same way.  The bushing on the left in my pic will not accept the pilot bushing I have that fits my input shaft. It looks to be the same size as is already installed in the FD unit.    Just going over my bushing with a rough measurement it is so close to .815 that I can't tell till new battery for the mic in the morning. The hole in my FD coupler is about .725.  That is just an easy 2 minute spun polishing of the pilot bushing

Edited by brooklynbeer
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No bushing fits into a bushing in the lower part of the coupling hub. If you see a bushing down there remove it and see what you got ....

I've replaced both of them on a couple different jobs.

The FD hub is all steel and accurately machined for the small and large bushings. One of each ...that's it.

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Then I got some super cleaning to do down there and see how the new pilot bushing reacts to that. I do suspect a pilot bushing was not installed many many years ago when the clutch was last done now . Wonder if lip of the hole was damaged in some way. I might be able to get a little dremel in there to polish it up good and see what happens. Maybe a little chamfer around the upper lip is needed. I did not feel a lip in anyway.  No gauling either. I doubt there is a bushing down there because if there was and I removed it, the pilot bushing would really not work..  At least I know the bigger outer bushing is there !  Just to get that freaking nut off.

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1 hour ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

Here's the factory 1946-48 Dodge parts book sizing on the front and rear FD coupling bushings...

Don't know what's up with the situation you have.

I've had a 42 DeSoto loose both bushings before and was quickly able to clean the hub out and press in both small and big bushings... that car squealed with the worn out loose bushings.

All FD coupling bushings front and rear  fit all MoPar cars from 1941-1954.

IMG_2971.JPG

Can I ask what manual this ?

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The FD Hub with bushings removed....

Fluid drive hub with bothn front and rear bushings already removed (4).JPG

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The parts book I have shown info out of is a factory 1946-48 Dodge car parts book.

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6 minutes ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

The FD Hub with bushings removed....

Fluid drive hub with bothn front and rear bushings already removed (4).JPG

Looking down into mine, I don't see that a pilot bushing was ever installed by the last guy who worked on this.  Do not see that step in the bottom like your picture shows at all. Tomorrow I will take down a piece of 1 inch dowel to .815 and see how much more under I have to go to get it to slide in after polishing and cleaning the bore. I don't think it is will be a lot.  How much under size roughly should the bore be from the diameter of the pilot bushing ?  I have to get the friction plate off to measure the depth 

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The lower bushing goes down into and below that lower step.

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One thing that I have not read any one mentioning in this thread is the subject of the rocking motion of the pressure plate when the input shaft is out.  I was told, very strongly, that before one removes or installs one of these units to place three wooden wedges under the pressure plate (between the bottom of the plate and the coupling housing) and run foot or so of bailing wire around the wedges and twist them tight with pliers.  A groove in the rear of the wedge helps.

 

What this does is to prevent the plate from rocking.  Apparently, you can crack the carbon seal in the unit if it rocks.  The issues is you will not know it until after it is all back together. Some times it cracks and takes a while until it starts leaking.

 

So, I always place the wedges in before I pull the trans out if I am going to be pulling the coupling. Then when the trans is back in you just cut the wire and rotate the unit around and pull out the wedges.  I use soft pine.

 

James.

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If possible I would like to see a picture of this.  So all that is needed is 3 shims say at the 430, 6, and 730 positions to ensure it doesn't do this?  I am replacing everything and looking to get the friction plate off today once I design something in the way of a wrench to remove the nut.  I am pretty sure there was never pilot bearing installed now.  I have to spind down a dowel and insert to get a proper close measurement

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Just mic'd my new pilot bushing @ .813 outside so that is factory correct spec.  Inside .563 so that is correct.  I am going to turn down a wood dowel to the .813 spec and see what it takes to get it to seat in the bottom of the FD unit. 

Edited by brooklynbeer
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Well I can say now without a doubt there is no pilot bushing down there.  I shaved a wooden dowel down till it fit and mic'd it. I pushed it in with effort and my mic is kinda old but this is close enough to spec to tell me.. Someone 20-30 years earlier had really half-assed this car together.  For the friction plate nut I mic's out about 1.87  or 1 and 7/8th.  Can anyone verify that through a chrysler book before I buy one.

20190113_132405.jpg

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I used the factory Miller tool to set both bushings at one time.  The proper sized seal/bushing driver could be used to install the bushings.    Start them straight of course.

As for the interference fit...???? never had to deal with checking that but I would maybe guess the FD hub bore .002-.003" smaller than the bushing. Just a guess.

They do pound down in with a fairly tight fit.

As for preventing rocking of the FD driven plate.... yes the copper bellows and carbon graphite seals can crack or leak if care is not taken to prevent excessive tilt of the driven plate with or W/O the clutch cover installed.

You have to remember the minute you pull the transmission out of the FD coupling there now is no support and loss of alignment the driven plate and clutch pressure plate

The whole driven plate assembly now sags some what..... Just be careful handling the FD coupling while working on it. I have never used wedges on all the FD work I have ever done.

Be careful as to how tight the wedges are if you go that route as you could pull the FD inner ball bearing to the rear compressing the graphite ring and bellows seal.

That front ball bearing is a semi tight fit and can loosen with time...but shouldn't. be careful and gentle with any FD coupling..

Bushings FD  Miller install tool (1).JPG

Bushings FD  Miller install tool (2).JPG

Fluid Drive Coupling Cut Away Inside View C39  (22).JPG

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I'll go measure one shortly..   

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