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Repairing pilothouse fenders


Los_Control

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Getting ready to tackle mine soon, just kicking it around in my head, what is best way to approach.

 

My first thought is to cut out the rust and patch leave the rivets, thinking will still have trapped rust.

 

My second thought is to remove the rivets and the bracket (easier to derust bracket) but wonder if the second layer of metal will remove from the fender, or will still have trapped rust?

 

Curious what others have done to fix this area, If it is worth removing the fender bracket.

I assume it is a common issue as I have this rust on both fenders on 2 different 49 trucks.

 

IMG_20181121_102445396.jpg

IMG_20181120_162644593.jpg

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On FEF, the area was cut out and a new reinforcement plate added back in (yes that back plate is there on purpose).   Then some carriage bolts were turned down and used in place of the rivets.  Yes, you would have trapped rust hiding in there.  I think the rivets are part of the DODGE look and really need to be put back...but that's me...  :)

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Yup, that's a common rust spot on these trucks. Most I have seen, that have been "restored" won't have rivets in that spot anymore. When I did my truck I drilled out the rivets, repaired the rust spot on the fender, and added another plate in between like what was there originally, and welded it all together. I then drilled through the original rivet holes and put carriage bolts in there. After sanding the heads smooth of any markings it looks like the original rivets again.

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On 11/21/2018 at 8:45 AM, Merle Coggins said:

....I then drilled through the original rivet holes and put carriage bolts in there. After sanding the heads smooth of any markings it looks like the original rivets again.

 

I went to "fastenal" and bought the 7/8" head rivets .... for me, it looked closer size to the original..... 

 

 

 

but carriage bolts are cheap enough and readily available for very little size difference .... 

Edited by Brent B3B
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I did what the others did-drill, cut out, weld in repair panel and use turned down carriage bolt.   I then seam sealed the plate behind the fender, and around the bolt heads.   It'll last longer than the original setup and keeps the original look.

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On ‎11‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 10:33 PM, Brent B3B said:

 

I went to "fastenal" and bought the 7/8" head rivets .... for me, it looked closer size to the original..... 

 

but carriage bolts are cheap enough and readily available for very little size difference .... 

What did you use to set those rivets?

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1 hour ago, Dave72dt said:

What did you use to set those rivets?

Think it may be more about the look, then the function.

Once we get this deep, putting a rivet or a carriage bolt is more of a option to keep the original Dodge look.

I think a rivet could be tack welded just to hold it in place, for the look.

Going to take a big tool to set the 7/8" rivets  :D

 

Yesterday I finally got all the rust stripped from the doghouse pieces, and stored in my office. Now I can take out one piece at a time, work it over and prep each piece for paint.

This will be the first fender I tackle, need to brush up on my welding and figure I cant hurt this one much more then it already is  :P

 

 

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if you have a shrinking disc...it will work some magic on that fender.....beautiful part is that with it off the vehicle, you can work each side alternately.....will make a believer out of you...I did a wrinkled corner of a P15 rear fender and was able to block it in with just primer after running the disc....

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That sounds like a vote of confidence PA  :)

I have been doing some hammer dolly work on the hood, also the SS grill, pretty happy with outcome.

My big fear right now is burn through with the welder. I am skeered I would take a minor patch repair on the front fender, turn it into something else.

 

I have a dozen different patches I need to put in this truck, figure the rear fender would be a good place to start. (since DCM sells new)

I think I have my biggest welding issue down to, wire feed fluxcore & dirty metal. So will make a better effort to get it clean.

I also bought a led light that I want to mount on to my welding hood.

And still learning where to adjust the settings on my helmet, first had shade to dark, then to light .... my garage I have only 2, 60 watt bulbs for light. I need to add florescent light. But probably if I move to the back yard in direct sunlight, may work better.

Still figuring things out.

 

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On 11/24/2018 at 10:42 AM, Dave72dt said:

What did you use to set those rivets?

I wish I had the means to "set" them..... I did what Merle did, and welded it all together. I just threaded the rivet

 

got it warm

 

 cleaned it up

 

used like the carriage bolt. just a 7/8" head instead of a 5/8" (the stem of the rivets is 3/8")

 

just like LC said more for looks....

did the same for the door rivets also :)

Edited by Brent B3B
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19 hours ago, Los_Control said:

That sounds like a vote of confidence PA  :)

I have been doing some hammer dolly work on the hood, also the SS grill, pretty happy with outcome.

My big fear right now is burn through with the welder. I am skeered I would take a minor patch repair on the front fender, turn it into something else.

 

I have a dozen different patches I need to put in this truck, figure the rear fender would be a good place to start. (since DCM sells new)

I think I have my biggest welding issue down to, wire feed fluxcore & dirty metal. So will make a better effort to get it clean.

I also bought a led light that I want to mount on to my welding hood.

And still learning where to adjust the settings on my helmet, first had shade to dark, then to light .... my garage I have only 2, 60 watt bulbs for light. I need to add florescent light. But probably if I move to the back yard in direct sunlight, may work better.

Still figuring things out.

 

Just my humble opinion:  but at my level of welding skill ( not great!), there is no way I'd use fluxcore on a fender. 

Can your welder have a gas kit added? 

And never weld on dirty thin steel.  little grinder with a flap wheel first.  I even have difficulty with .023 and gas with thinner metals as my eyes age.

!

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thin metal. no problem , O/A setup. 000 tip correct pressure, proper size copper coated steel (eliminates sparks)  and neutral flame.....you can easily weld a pretty bead on tin cans PLUS no brittle metal as a result.  Right tool, little practice and you are on top of the game.

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2 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

thin metal. no problem , O/A setup. 000 tip correct pressure, proper size copper coated steel (eliminates sparks)  and neutral flame.....you can easily weld a pretty bead on tin cans PLUS no brittle metal as a result.  Right tool, little practice and you are on top of the game.

Agree wholeheartedly.  I use my O/A setup on most body work.  But, I don't think the OP has that tool. 

It does take some (make that, a LOT) practice to control the warpage, but it does make a beautiful job when done.  My local welding supply doesn't stock any small rods.  I guess he thinks everyone welds 1/8" stock or thicker.

 

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ask for copper coated steel TIG rods, available in 1/16, 3/32 and 1/8 in my local weld shop.  IF you welding smaller stuff, I use a straightened length of copper coated MIG wire from a wire feed unit of the appropriate size....think you will find .030 copper coated and .023 also....there are heat sinking techniques that prevent warpage and even prevent burning paint for the most part from the panel touching the one you are welding.  O/A is very cost effective welding....you can actually derust, clean, surface prep and weld in a single pass with the torch while all the time be able to see ahead of time the actual thickness changes in metal and adjust on the fly with very few burnouts and if you burn out...it is a quick on the fly fix also....torch welding is my go to for sheet metal, I use TIG mainly if stainless or aluminum, arc on heavier metals and I think I have used MIG only once in the last 15 years...MIG is great for some production work where working the metal later is not an issue and the metal is all clean new and of the same gauge, (muffler shops come to mind) something that is not 100% controllable in older body repair.  I also do not recommend brazing with a bronze rod for body work though many English cars use this method and I do also repair a bit with silver soldering.   I recommend to everyone the use of the torch...it is a worthwhile investment in my book.  But I also know many are limited budget wise and cannot afford all style welders starting out.  It took a many years to get my shop outfitted like it is.  If you learn to TIG you can O/A weld and vice versa...the technique is that similar...

Edited by Plymouthy Adams
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7 minutes ago, kencombs said:

never weld on dirty thin steel

I cleaned some 16 gage metal and fabricated a coil bracket and worked great.

I have a 91 chubby pickup, they cut the floor of the bed out to replace the fuel pump. I did not clean the patch metal so good, and was a disaster.

I started a welding thread once, I thought my issue was I needed gas to be a better welder. I read through that thread and now blame dirty metal.

Have not yet got back to welding since then, been busy with other projects. Now getting them caught up.

12 minutes ago, kencombs said:

Can your welder have a gas kit added? 

I am a old remodel carpenter, made my living with my tools. I bought what I think is a great welder, Forney 190 multi process tig/mig/stick. Next year in a few months, I want to move to gas and also try tig.

First I want to learn fluxcore well, then move up. I simply spent too much money this year already. I spent $800 for a welder, then it sat for 3 months before I plugged it in.

I need to learn to use what I have, learn the limitations, then understand why I want to upgrade and what would expect to gain from the upgrade.

Yeah I want instant gratification, afraid I am going to have to get a little school of hard knocks under my belt first.

I would love to take a welding class at some local collage right now, simply nothing close by ....

Remember, when I show my mistakes, I am laughing also  :D

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27 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

thin metal. no problem , O/A setup. 000 tip correct pressure, proper size copper coated steel (eliminates sparks)  and neutral flame.....you can easily weld a pretty bead on tin cans PLUS no brittle metal as a result.  Right tool, little practice and you are on top of the game.

Was there A link missing PA?

 

3 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

on the heat sinking tips..these cannot be used with the mig as it cannot supply the needed heat and will be a total cold bead if you get a bead at all...

I feel I am missing something, I know you have excellent advice

As far as mig goes, think there is no bead, only spot welds on sheet metal, with lots of time in between spots.

For example, one spot weld this side, one spot weld that side .... 3 drinks of beer while cools, 2 more spot welds then 4 more drinks and so on  :D

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ah the beauty of proper sinking and welding with the torch...you can run any length of bead on a full perimeter weld.....there is no link missing in the above post by me....just a general on the setup was my intent to post..guess that is my problem on using MIG and spot weld approach (stitching)  I do not sip beer....this is my beverage of choice   I will have to say, you CANNOT always apply proper heat sinking for welding...in those cases, you do as you are doing with the mig...hit and miss....

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My big stick welder is a 1941 +/- a  year or so Forney, been in the family all this time.....I even have the original welding helmet that came with the unit from the factory.  I have used this welder quite a bit over the years and it has never failed to amaze me of its many heat taps as I can go high/lo ground on a single tap for double range.

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I do have a couple torch heads, I have watched some youtube vids on torch welding. I love the talent some people have. Makes me jump up and down  ... I want to learn to do that!

I still need hoses and tanks, not sure if these torches would be usable for body work.

 

Funny story time. "The welding web" is actually a very big welding forum, lots of knowledgeable people and information.

I asked for some pointers on using oxy/act to do bodywork .... I started such a crap storm, I was told to not touch anything, just take my metal to a qualified welder with a mig to fix it.

Long story short, I am banned from that forum   :P

 

I love the idea of using gas like the old pro's did.

Then I watched vids with people using a mig .... now I gotta get me one of those.

Then I saw a vid of a guy tig welding sheet metal ...OMG I gotta get one of these.

 

I think with the right skill set, any process will work. I can transfer the skill set to carpentry and which saw to use. The more skill you have, the less tool you need.

 

IMG_20181125_105744803.jpg

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Well some folks are very set in their ways....to a degree you can count me with them....but I am open to all forms of welding and own a number of welders with duplicates of some so not to have to drag from one end of the shop to the other or out to yet another building every use.   They each have their merits and application....you got to find what works best for you is about the best I can tell anyone.  As for them telling you to take it to a qualified shop shows this group a tight knit bunch of professionals who want your money.  (think closed shop) I found similar advice and pointers from other forums that are trade specific.  Just wipe the dirt from your feet and press on.  Read a few white papers, I suggest reading more than one so you can easily weed out some of the flakes.  After a few papers you get a good grasp on who is leading you on in your knowledge and those that are leading you astray.  Persistence pays off but I will be the first to say try the internet, I will also say not all things are on the internet.....and that you do find, as stated above, take with a grain of salt till you weed through numerous papers.  All accomplished task start with a learning curve...it is those that think they can read an article, jump right in and finesse the skill straight out...well, hats off I you do, but most things at this level require a bit of applied technique and skill only gained from practice.

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20 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

My big stick welder is a 1941 +/- a  year or so Forney, been in the family all this time.....I even have the original welding helmet that came with the unit from the factory.  I have used this welder quite a bit over the years and it has never failed to amaze me of its many heat taps as I can go high/lo ground on a single tap for double range.

 

I learned to weld on an early 40’s Forney - those things never die. Great advice on the O/A for body work. Unfortunately, it is quickly becoming extinct - being replaced with TIG (welding) and plasma (cutting). I supervise all of the Vocational shops at a school - we are getting ready to do a complete makeover of our Welding Program. Oxygen/Aceyteline has been completely eliminated from the program with the exception of a single setup for heating and bending. Up till now, students started with O/A to get a better understanding of the weld puddle - pushing or pulling it while adding filler material.

 

Personally, I didn’t see a need for MIG until just a few years ago. Now, that is my go to welder. Can’t remember the last time I pulled out the old stick welder. I pull out the O/A for occasional thin stuff, but primarily use it for cutting and bending. I don’t think my eyes are good enough for TIG - some day I might give that a try.

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15 minutes ago, Los_Control said:

I do have a couple torch heads, I have watched some youtube vids on torch welding. I love the talent some people have. Makes me jump up and down  ... I want to learn to do that!

I still need hoses and tanks, not sure if these torches would be usable for body work.

 

Funny story time. "The welding web" is actually a very big welding forum, lots of knowledgeable people and information.

I asked for some pointers on using oxy/act to do bodywork .... I started such a crap storm, I was told to not touch anything, just take my metal to a qualified welder with a mig to fix it.

Long story short, I am banned from that forum   :P

 

I love the idea of using gas like the old pro's did.

Then I watched vids with people using a mig .... now I gotta get me one of those.

Then I saw a vid of a guy tig welding sheet metal ...OMG I gotta get one of these.

 

I think with the right skill set, any process will work. I can transfer the skill set to carpentry and which saw to use. The more skill you have, the less tool you need.

 

IMG_20181125_105744803.jpg

 

the smaller torch on the top may be your better head.....you will need the correct tip sizes...I suggest 0, 00 and 000.  You can get a 1 but for sheet metal you going to be disappointed.  I rarely take the 00 off my torch.....

 

the Henrob 2000 (corbra) is also an good unit but I find it quite heavy and bulky (also costly to purchase)  for general bouncing around the corners, curves and angles of a car body...you need a few extensions and such to use this head....whereas the common smaller Victor Jr. is to me ideal

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