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Electronic ignition again


Doug&Deb

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1 minute ago, Don Coatney said:

 

Does that differ from turning the ignition switch off and back on? 

Turning switch on sends "hot" to black lead of ignitor. White lead is connected to coil terminal.

Downshift relay grounds the same terminal where white lead goes to the electronic solid state ignitor. So it will be short circuited. 

See attached image

1.PNG

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I call Pertronix about the momentary grounding of the units with the R-10 OD setup- while the tech was not up on this trans operation, I explained how the solenoid was grounding out the ignition points in the stock setup with the OD for an instant for the OD solenoid to shift in.

His answer was that a over-rev limiter did the same thing and they worked fine with their electronic setups. So he saw No problems with this OD and the units.

 

Some have had problems when they wired the OD solenoid functions different from stock, while using a pertronix setup were they had the solenoid trying to engage but did not let off the gas pedal immediately after turning the OD on manually.

That will pop the fuse in a Very short time  or just overheat and burn out the Pertronix if the fuse does not go out first.

 

Again just my experiences for what it is worth.

 

DJ

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9 minutes ago, DJ194950 said:

I call Pertronix about the momentary grounding of the units with the R-10 OD setup- while the tech was not up on this trans operation, I explained how the solenoid was grounding out the ignition points in the stock setup with the OD for an instant for the OD solenoid to shift in.

His answer was that a over-rev limiter did the same thing and they worked fine with their electronic setups. So he saw No problems with this OD and the units.

 

Some have had problems when they wired the OD solenoid functions different from stock, while using a pertronix setup were they had the solenoid trying to engage but did not let off the gas pedal immediately after turning the OD on manually.

That will pop the fuse in a Very short time  or just overheat and burn out the Pertronix if the fuse does not go out first.

 

Again just my experiences for what it is worth.

 

DJ

Sorry but OD, do you mean Over Drive unit? Aren't they grounded through a regular switch?

Never heard about a rev limiter grounding. Usually they just disconnect coil when the limit is reached and on again when RPM drops.

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The grounding of the points happens within the Overdrive(OD) solenoid. There two sets of points inside of the OD solenoid. One is for the solenoid- in -activator and the other for the momentary grounding as the solenoid shifts in. That set of points is only for the split second as the solenoid moves outward on the plunger. to shift in the overdrive.

 

There used to be a post on repair of the solenoids for the R-10s in the downloads section here on  the forum page but now seems to be gone. It explained the operation and repair of the solenoid. It was from a Hudson forum member but these R-10's were used in almost all American made cars of the 50's and almost all used the same OD solenoids. Maybe a web search on- Borg-Warner R-10 solenoid repair will get you detailed info on the solenoid.  ??

 

DJ

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8 minutes ago, DJ194950 said:

The grounding of the points happens within the Overdrive(OD) solenoid. There two sets of points inside of the OD solenoid. One is for the solenoid- in -activator and the other for the momentary grounding as the solenoid shifts in. That set of points is only for the split second as the solenoid moves outward on the plunger. to shift in the overdrive.

 

There used to be a post on repair of the solenoids for the R-10s in the downloads section here on  the forum page but now seems to be gone. It explained the operation and repair of the solenoid. It was from a Hudson forum member but these R-10's were used in almost all American made cars of the 50's and almost all used the same OD solenoids. Maybe a web search on- Borg-Warner R-10 solenoid repair will get you detailed info on the solenoid.  ??

 

DJ

Interesting. I can see what you mean from this image. So it's precise same problem.

I have no experience with OD as unfortunately my hasn't got one.  

 

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For my M-5 transmission, the Pertronix techs suggested adding a 7-ohm resistor to the "grounding" circuit.  "Grounding" is in quotations, because the wiring of the Pertronix is opposite that of the conventional points-type distributor.  

 

Points-Type:  One wire to the coil is hot when the ignition switch is on.  The other wire, the "ground" wire, is intemittently grounded by the points.  When the points open, the coil fires.  For my M-5, the PRI post of the transmission relay is conncted to the ground side of the coil, momentarily grounding the circuit, preventing the ignition from firing, so that the engine slows down for the shift. 

 

Pertronix:  The ground side of the coil is always grounded.  The Pertronix unit plays with the hot side.  The hot wire from the ignition switch powers the Pertronix unit in the distributor.  The other wire from the distributor goes to the hot side of the coil.   It is to this hot post that the circuit with the 7-ohm resistor goes to the PRI contact, to interrupt the ignition momentarily.

 

Clear? 

 

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Correction the OD solenoid repair was not from Hudson but a company that is into Kaisers.!

 

http://www.kaiserbill.com/page2.html

 

See OD solenoid repair here.

 

DJ

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21 minutes ago, DonaldSmith said:

For my M-5 transmission, the Pertronix techs suggested adding a 7-ohm resistor to the "grounding" circuit.  "Grounding" is in quotations, because the wiring of the Pertronix is opposite that of the conventional points-type distributor.  

 

Points-Type:  One wire to the coil is hot when the ignition switch is on.  The other wire, the "ground" wire, is intemittently grounded by the points.  When the points open, the coil fires.  For my M-5, the PRI post of the transmission relay is conncted to the ground side of the coil, momentarily grounding the circuit, preventing the ignition from firing, so that the engine slows down for the shift. 

 

Pertronix:  The ground side of the coil is always grounded.  The Pertronix unit plays with the hot side.  The hot wire from the ignition switch powers the Pertronix unit in the distributor.  The other wire from the distributor goes to the hot side of the coil.   It is to this hot post that the circuit with the 7-ohm resistor goes to the PRI contact, to interrupt the ignition momentarily.

 

Clear? 

 

Perfectly clear. So are you using a 7 Ohm resistor in series with success?

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So you are still talking 6 volt pos. ground?? with your setup and explanation??

 

DJ

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  • 1 month later...

I have been running a 6 volt Pertonix for three years and have had no issues at all 11,000 miles later.  It does seem picky on the coil used.  I tried the Pertonix made flamethrower coil and the car ran like crap and stumbled at 50 mph+.  Went back to this coil and it worked great instantly.

 

https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b/bwd-3123/ignition---tune-up-16776/ignition-coils-19690/ignition-coil-12493/90c5da72ae86/bwd-ignition-coil/e5/2597325/1950/plymouth/special-deluxe?pos=1

 

Only thing I don't like about it is I can't get it to work right with my 6 volt Westach tachometer. 

Edited by Polsonator2
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20 minutes ago, Polsonator2 said:

I have been running a 6 volt Pertonix for three years and have had no issues at all 11,000 miles later...

...Only thing I don't like about it is I can't get it to work right with my 6 volt Westach tachometer. 

 

Interesting observation. I noticed this summer that my Westach is no longer accurate and I wondered if it was due to the different signal from the Pertronix. I contacted Westach about it and they stated that several of their customers run their tach’s with Pertronix. I was going to drop my points distributor back in and test it again for verification but I hadn’t got around to it yet. 

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I contacted them too Merle and they told me the same thing, that others have no issues..  Of note, it worked fine for me under points.  The Pertonix eliminates the same type of ground signal at the distributor with the loss of points so I was told by Westach to try using the opposite side of the coil for the signal but it reads weird and not consistent.  The polarity they said shouldn't be an issue as the tach works with positive or negative ground (my car is stock 6v positive ground).  Pertronix customer support also spent a lot of time trying to help based off the westach wiring diagrams but in the end couldn't figure it out.  Ultimately I just shelved the tach in my garage but if you can figure it out that would be awesome!

Edited by Polsonator2
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  • 7 months later...
On 10/20/2018 at 6:29 PM, DonaldSmith said:

Pertronix:  The ground side of the coil is always grounded.  The Pertronix unit plays with the hot side.  The hot wire from the ignition switch powers the Pertronix unit in the distributor.  The other wire from the distributor goes to the hot side of the coil.   It is to this hot post that the circuit with the 7-ohm resistor goes to the PRI contact, to interrupt the ignition momentarily.

 

 

 

If I understand correctly, the hot side of the coil is the (-) and the ground side is the (+),  as the coil is labeled in the Chrysler manual, and the 7 ohm resistor goes between the coil hot and the PRI contact on the trans relay.

 

I'm sorry if this is a dumb question, especially about the hot/ground/+/-, but this is my first experience with a Pos Grd system, not to mention the harness has been spliced/repaired I don't know how many times so colors are almost worthless, and it's making me crazy. Just trying to make sure I don't screw up my trans or let factory smoke out if I hook it up wrong. lol

20190728_194531.jpg

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Yes, positive is ground, and negative is "hot". 

Now, in the typical system, as shown in the Post #45 diagram, the points in the distributor interrupt the ground side of the primary (+) circuit of the coil. 

In the Pertronix system, the coil is grounded and the Pertronix module in the distributor interrupts the hot (-) side.

Confusing enough? 

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On 10/20/2018 at 6:29 PM, DonaldSmith said:

For my M-5 transmission, the Pertronix techs suggested adding a 7-ohm resistor to the "grounding" circuit.  "Grounding" is in quotations, because the wiring of the Pertronix is opposite that of the conventional points-type distributor.  

 

Does the resistor have to be a 7ohm? I am having a heck of a time finding one that won't take 3 weeks to be delivered. 

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Back in 2015, Pertronix offered two sources for the resister:  http://www.digikey.com and http://www.mouser.com

The recommended resister was 7 ohm, 5 watt, but 7 ohm, 12-1/2 watt was acceptable. 

I bought a 71-RH10-7.0 resister from Mouser for 2.98 plus ^.99 shipping.  I don't remember how long it took to receive it.   

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13 minutes ago, DonaldSmith said:

Back in 2015, Pertronix offered two sources for the resister:  http://www.digikey.com and http://www.mouser.com

The recommended resister was 7 ohm, 5 watt, but 7 ohm, 12-1/2 watt was acceptable. 

I bought a 71-RH10-7.0 resister from Mouser for 2.98 plus ^.99 shipping.  I don't remember how long it took to receive it.   

 

Both Mouser and DigiKey are distributors for the company I work for. Both ship same day that the order is received, so it would just be however long it takes the parts to get from Mansfield, TX (Mouser) or Thief River Falls, MN (DigiKey) to your location.  

Edited by hkestes41
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