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Russell Winje

1949 Chrysler New Yorker rear tire lockups

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I have a 1949 Chrysler New Yorker that I have been getting road worthy. Yesterday I had it up in the air to check the adjustment on the foot brakes,  front and rear, before I drove off.  Once I was through with the rear brakes I started the motor, put in 1st then high (from a stop in both cases) to see if both rear wheels spun freely, and they did.  So I took it out for a ride (slowly) and in about 3 miles it locked (or braked) the rear tires, equally, the released.  I backed into a driveway, just fine, the came back to the barn slowly, checking all gears as I went.  A fluctuating rhythmic scrape could be heard, which went away with a depressed clutch.  Motor speed didn't effect it.  In neutral the sound was less. Drove in just fine the returning 3 miles with no locking.  This was the second time it had locked up.  The car has only 49,200 miles and is in otherwise very good original condition, and if the interior is any example of care, it has been treated very well in its life.  Where should I check?  I have been doing other things like tuning up, which has been successful.  Up till yesterday it has driven just fine at all speeds.  I have yet to check all fluids, such as transmission and rear end, though that will be on the top of the list this weekend. I have not looked at the park brake though it does not hold the car if I pull the lever.  Could be disconnected.  I don't know yet.  Thank you for any input. 100_8613.JPG.31fec2f01d7cfad71b0068d5b6d9e7ea.JPG

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you are probably experiencing a hydraulic locking of the brakes.  Few areas to look close at, first is the piston in the master fully returning to the rear stop plate and venting allowing full flow FROM the wheel cylinder....is that vent hole clear..(if you decide to check the vent...ensure the position is most rearward so to not damage a seal)  Next is the rear flex line, is it internally good or soft and allowing the line to collapse internally...remember you have heck of pressure applying brakes, only the spring on the shoes returning fluid to the master.   Last could be a bit of trash rust etc that is preventing the full return of the wheel cylinder that will hold pressure...this can also prevent venting and with a single cylinder actually help keep pressure on the fronts by simple t'ing of he lines.

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one other thing to add to Tims list-did you mess with the brake pedal push rod adjustment? If that is too tight it can cause wheels to lock up. 

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I assume your Chrysler is fluid drive equipped. With a non working emergency brake your car will roll down even the smallest of inclines even with the transmission in gear and the engine turned off. Suggest you repair the emergency brake first. 

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I love the louder horn.  I'll start there!  Thanks for the good suggestions (even the horn).  I have places to check now.  Kind regards, Russell

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That sure is a really nice original car. They are almost impossible to find in that condition anymore.

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How much freeplay do you have on the brake pedal before it starts to build pressure?  Should be an inch to inch and a half.  Insufficient free play will not allow for release/return of fluid to the mc when you release the pedal.

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It's not clear to me when or how the brakes locked.  Just driving down the road and the spontaneously lock?  Lock when stopping and won't release ? 

Or????

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Good day Kencombs,  The lock up was spontaneous without applying the brakes and about 30 miles per hour and 3 miles from the barn.  As to Greg G, the free play on the peddle is about 4", too much.  I have adjusted and will want to pull the front wheels to pack the bearings and will at that point check the condition of the front brakes.  As to Knuckleharley, it is really amazing the original condition of the car.  Thanks to everyone for the good ideas and comments.  Kind regards, Russell

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I've seen older bonded linings separate from the metal and lock the wheel(s) when it wedged between the remaining shoe and drum.  Backing up will free them.  Then driving forward again could cause a scraping sound.  It would be unusual for both to happen, but if it's been unused for a while anything's possible.

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 It could also be that the  rear rubber brake line has collapsed. The master cyl. will apply pressure, but wheel cylinder pressure can't return the fluid. The fluid gets hot and expands, applying the brakes.I have a vacuum bleeder that I like to use to change out the old fluid every year or two. They can be had at HF, and if you had one to bleed the brakes,you would notice little fluid transfer on the first two wheels being bled. Which would confirm the bad rubber line. In any case I agree with the others on the bleed hole, which also would not allow return fluid, and yourself and would change all fluids. Get a manual for your car and it will tell you how to correctly adjust the emergency brake, and a ton of other stuff. Back in this cars day, a gas station guy would just tighten a nut to get pressure without centering the band. That's a real nice car, by the way. What engine is in it? I have a 49 Chrysler in a 47 WD21 with a Spitfire head.

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10 hours ago, 9 foot box said:

 That's a real nice car, by the way. What engine is in it? I have a 49 Chrysler in a 47 WD21 with a Spitfire head.

Thanks for your advice on the brakes.

It is nice, hard to believe after some of the rough Chryslers I have had in the past.  It has the Spitifre head, straight 8.  I just replaced the damage vac advance and plugs and it perked right up.  I had sat for years and the gas tank took a flush and two rounds of fresh gas tanks and fuel stabilizer. 

Kind regards, Russell

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11 hours ago, kencombs said:

I've seen older bonded linings separate from the metal and lock the wheel(s) when it wedged between the remaining shoe and drum.  Backing up will free them.  Then driving forward again could cause a scraping sound.  It would be unusual for both to happen, but if it's been unused for a while anything's possible.

 

AH, I see.  I will take a look in there once the wheel puller comes in.  Thanks, Russell

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1 hour ago, Russell Winje said:

 

AH, I see.  I will take a look in there once the wheel puller comes in.  Thanks, Russell

If you think you need a puller to pull your front hubs,I think you just discovered a large part of your problem.

 

Do the front wheels both spin freely in both directions when you jack them up,?

 

What about the rear ones?

 

And scraping on rattling sounds from any of the brake drums?

 

BTW,you ARE going to need the puller,and a lot of patience,to pull the rear drums. Tapered axles with a keyway.  Moderate pressure,patience,and tapping all along the outsides of the brake drums and on the center of the puller are the key to removing them. Let the vibrations and patience do the work of loosing  the drums from the axle instead of brute force and you won't damage anything.

 

Remember,you aren't paying anyone by the hour to do this,and it isn't a contest.

Edited by knuckleharley

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caution are against hitting the drum and also about hitting the end of the puller itself where it applies pressure to the axle..the shock can cause damage to the thrust block or even the opposite wheel bearing...as stated patience and pressure are your friends..BFHing a drum or axle is not...a cheater pipe can help...if you use the hammer, be sure it is only on the lug of the spanner used when tightening...

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16 minutes ago, knuckleharley said:

If you think you need a puller to pull your front hubs,I think you just discovered a large part of your problem.

 

 

Thanks for the input.  For sure the puller will be for the careful removal of the rear drums only, much like the other Chryslers and other tapered axle rigs.  Kind regards, Russell

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

caution are against hitting the drum

Thank you for the reminders.  Easy does it is the good plan. 

 

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21 minutes ago, knuckleharley said:

 

 

Do the front wheels both spin freely in both directions when you jack them up,? 

 

What about the rear ones?

 

And scraping on rattling sounds from any of the brake drums?

 

What I find is the front wheels spin freely in both directions.  No scrapping sounds in the front.  The rear spin freely in both directions though one is noisy as peddle is activated, thus the need to visually inspect to make a good plan., and again, thanks for the input, Russell

 

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41 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

caution are against hitting the drum and also about hitting the end of the puller itself where it applies pressure to the axle..the shock can cause damage to the thrust block or even the opposite wheel bearing...as stated patience and pressure are your friends..BFHing a drum or axle is not...a cheater pipe can help...if you use the hammer, be sure it is only on the lug of the spanner used when tightening...

You don't have to hit it hard with a 20 ounce ball pien hammer to set up vibrations,and vibrations break things loose better than brute force.

Edited by knuckleharley

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5 hours ago, knuckleharley said:

You don't have to hit it hard with a 20 ounce ball pien hammer to set up vibrations,and vibrations break things loose better than brute force. 

When I  was working for Grove Valve and Regulator in the machine shop I made a drum puller for a 1958 Volvo I had.  When I sold the Volvo to my brother in law the puller went with the car.  Darn, sure had reason to use it since on my Model A, then my 61 Newport.  Always seemed luck enough that as you say, vibrations, and of course patients, prevailed.  Thanks for your observations.  Russell

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Volvo not only has the Salisbury rear axle that is as the Spicer, but the bolt patterns is also 5 x 4.5  AND so far the 62 Volvo PV544 I have here has been the hardest set of drums I have ever had to remove YET....I say yet as the Jensens also have Salisbury rear ends...and I have not dinked with the brakes on then a of yet.

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A 20 OZ ball peen hammer to wack on the dog bone of a brake drum puller.....foolish and a anemic effort for MoPar rear drum removal

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29 minutes ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

A 20 OZ ball peen hammer to wack on the dog bone of a brake drum puller.....foolish and a anemic effort for MoPar rear drum removal

Where did I ever make the claim that is what I use to hit the puller arms? Go back and read what I wrote.

 

Not that it WON'T work if you smack the breaker arm hard enough. I prefer to use the easy method when possible,and have a much heavier hammer I used for striking the arms. Even using that bigger hammer I still don't hit hard with it. Like I wrote earlier,pressure and vibrations are the way to break things lose without breaking things.

Edited by knuckleharley

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