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maok

Occasional rattling noise from bell housing area

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On the weekend while driving a bride to her big moment, a fairly loud rattle sound, and a vibration via the clutch pedal, occurred all of a sudden. The sound and vibration discontinued when slowing down to a stop and after driving off at 25mph and less. The sound was just like having a playing card attached to the folks of a child's bicycle rattling on the spokes, but more metallic sounding. This time and previously the sound had suddenly occurred only at high constant speed, now, when I say high speed, I mean sound breaking speed of 30mph...😀 It does seem that it is occurring with centrifugal forces at play, the rattle sound is like from something making contact with a turning part.

 

This has happened a couple of times before but without the vibration and not as loud. I had assumed previously that it was my wire pointer touching the fan belt or fan blade that I had attached to a radiator support bolt to indicate TDC on the pulley. Examining the wire, fan belt and blade showed no sign of contact previously.

 

Because I had felt the vibration via the clutch pedal this time, I opened up the inspection plate of the gearbox for the clutch assembly area thinking it maybe the thrust/throwout bearing, or the return spring had come loose and was making contact with input spline  or the clutch assembly. But no such luck, spring is in place doing its job. Having said that, the sound was of more heavier metal sounding rattle. All the parts on the clutch assembly seem to be intact and in place.

 

One other possibility is that I did replace the hose that supplies the grease for the thrust bearing with a fitting attached to a hose  and a clamp and that the clamp screw was making contacting to the thrust bearing. I may take the hose off for a while to see if the rattle sound does not happen again.

 

Anyone else have ideas of what it could be or have experienced a similar problem?

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I had an 1964 MGB as a teenager. The car developed an engine rattle, it drove me nuts trying to figure it out. Turned out it was the engaging spring on the starter was loose and was rattling.

Have you checked to see if anything is loose on your starter, possibly even touching the flywheel?

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Yes, I did check the flywheel gear to see if there was any sign of the starter gear was making contact with the edge of the flywheel gear. No obvious damage except the typical starter pinion gear damage at various places on the flywheel gear.

 

It really did sound like something making contact with a turning gear like the flywheel gear or the spline of the input shaft of the gearbo x, just like a playing card on the spokes of a bicycle. And it only has happened at constant higher speed, as if the centrifugal forces has suddenly moved something out to the edge of  the moving part.

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Well, after a comprehensive check of all turning parts from the flywheel to the propshaft, including inside the clutch inspection cover, there are no obvious signs of contact made with a turning part. Could it be inside the gearbox?

 

Any ideas or suggestions to look at?

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Have you checked the handbrake?........if its an external contracting one have you looked closely at the lining as its external and may have come loose and is hitting something when spinning....also what sort of fan belt does it have?........a "normal" style one, like that used till the last 20-30yrs or one of those "vintage" ones made up of short segments held together with rivets ?........the clutch and its associated area would have been the area of concern but if you have checked there and its all clear then its a mystery to me..............andyd

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Thanks Andy, yes, checked the hand/emergency brake assembly.

 

Checked out the thrust/throwout bearing spring, its in place as it should be and worked as expected.

I pulled apart all four wheels to inspect bearings,  checked brake assembly (four wheel brake bands) all round. 

 

I did check the fan and belt (normal V style of belt not the very old skool style), no sign of damage there.

 

Visually checked both u-joint (Ball and Trunnion) on the propshaft but did not pull them apart, but I can't see how anything there would make a constant rattle sound all of a sudden at speed. 

 

I pulled the starter out and dis-assembled it to check the bendix and pinion gear,  the spring is intact and its bolts are tight. No signs  of damage there.

 

I'm starting to lose some hair....:(

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Probably not the issue that you have, but just another thought: After lowering my truck a bit I had a similar metallic rattle noise coming (for sure !) from the gear box. Not all the time and just in second gear. And it got louder and more often. Also then in 3rd gear and mainly while accelerating.

I think I pulled and opened the transmission 4 or 5 times, didn`t see anything abnormal to the trans itself, the clutch, flywheel starter and so on. Also checked the prop shaft`s axial clearance. Nothing ...

But it turned out, it was the axial clearance ! I have checked this while sitting unloaded in the garage. But on the road, with me as driver (no, I am not that heavy !) and the load of the driving circumstances the propshaft length compensation was on its limit. I have fabricated a spacer flange which is mounted between the rear end flange and prop shaft flange and after that the noise was gone.

prop-shaft-spacer.jpg.671c3b264d56d2e6f84334c32c7ffaac.jpg

In my case the source of the issue lead to a noise at a different place. I was sure it is coming from the transmission ...

Edited by PT81Jan

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After reading about someone elses weird noise finally being found that the flywheels bolts/nuts were loose on the forum several years back.

 

I was just starting to notice some noise it that area on my 50 Ply. I decided to check my flywheels nuts tightness and they Were loose, did I forget to do a final torque on them? Not sure but I tightened  them again- noise gone!

 

just a possibility?

 

DJ

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Thanks Jan, its a rattle/sound that comes on suddenly, but yeah it could be anything.

 

Thanks DJ, I did check the flywheel to pressure plate assembly bolts but not the flywheel to crank bolts due to accessibility. If it was one or all of the flywheel bolts I would imagine it would be a continuous noise or rattle. But it is hard to say really.


I am going to try to replicate the rattle by having the rear wheels jacked up off the garage floor and run the engine in gear to see if it will occur stationary. All fingers and toes crossed.

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How about getting all 4 wheels on stands and recruit a brave person to be underneath the car and as you run the engine higher and higher through the gears and hold throttle down and you apply brakes at times in each gear as you go move around under to locate any noises?? The braking while accelerating acts closely to normal driving .

 

Send me a round trip air ticket just say business class? No need for first class (i'm easy)  and in about 14 hrs. I can get there from the S.F. airport!  😁

😎😎

Is this noise on your 28 Chrysler?? On most flatheads the bolts in the flywheel to crank either come from inside edge of the crank flange to the flywheel  of from inside the flywheel to the crank flange with bolts that are flattened on one edge to hold them to the inner circle machined into the flywheel to tighten from the front edge on the crank flange towards the oil  pan.

But that is later models than 1928! Which is I asked.  😉

 

DJ

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Doh! Yeah, I should have mentioned that the issue is with my '28 Chrysler.

DJ, you being on the west coast of the US and me being on the east coast of Oz, I will offer you my boat;

10712499_374806582682873_8801361530676186358_o.jpg.ce48d05b1c9ac189f02d7660959fc90a.jpg

 

Your description of the flywheel bolts is the same for the 28 model.

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Hey it is only about 14 hrs. of My time!  😄

                                                                                                            

I only use powered boats! Not my  power!  😉

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Well this noise rattle (was much louder and heavy sound) has reared its ugly head again, this time in a big way, had to be towed home. Luckily it happened after the wedding.

 

It definitely sounded and felt like it was from the bell housing area, but after pulling the gear box out, there is no sign of any damage or obvious problem.

Previously the rattle would slowly go away when I disengaged the clutch and slowed the car down. This time when I pulled over the rattle was still there while stationary. Turned the engine off and started it up, the rattle seemed like it was getting worse and even had trouble keeping idle.

I dropped the flywheel inspection cover and the oil pan thinking I may have a very loose conrod big end, again no sign of any issue.

 

Any ideas?

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IMAG1039.thumb.jpg.7ccbf0d7b799304e0d1dad31c86b5e8c.jpg

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I assume that you've checked everything on the engine bottom for loosness, also the throwout  bearing sleeve and pivot............what about the clutch..........any sign of a cracked or broken spring, finger pivots etc?..............might be a worthwhile execise to remove the clutch anyway and take it to a clutch specialist to have it looked at, there maybe something there that they can test via disassembly, etc..........intriguing to say the least..............andyd

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Yeah, its got me buggered Andy. I only have a few weddings remaining to do this year before I do the engine swap for the new one that is at the machinist.

 

The engine turns freely by hand with no noise or rattle, its very smooth. All the main caps and conrod nuts seem secure and tight, there is some play  in the big end caps but that is expected, its a very tired engine. The oil pump is secure and not loose in any way.

The amount of noise that happened, there really should be metal filings or obvious visual damage somewhere. The clutch all looks good, the thrust (throw out) bearing moves smoothly when the pedal is pushed, and can be moved by hand, the return spring works as it should. I am considering unbolting the clutch assembly but everything looks fine. The pivot fingers are all good, still spring loaded with no obvious damage.

I am considering bolting the oil pan back on and starting and running the engine  with the gearbox off to hopefully see something odd.

 

Edited by maok

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The plot thickens...............lol.............andyd 

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That is the strangest clutch pressure plate I have ever seen!  But is is on a 1928!

The fingers sit off from the usual 90 degrees. do they all seem in the same relative position??   The pictures make it look like they all not evenly positioned.

Clutch problem?

I would run the motor with and without clutch as listening for noises. Loose flywheel?

I had that problem on a 1950 Plymouth.

If still noisy after clutch removed/flywheel tightness checked then I would use a mechanics stethoscope for locate noise in the motor.

A some questions/thoughts.

 

DJ

Edited by DJ194950
add some further checks.

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48 minutes ago, Don Coatney said:

Suspect thermal be a problem with the starter/flywheel gear. The condition of the teeth on the flywheel is not good. Check the teeth on the starter motor.

Yes, the ring gear on the flywheel is very badly damaged from over the years, no damage at all on the starter gear, its relatively new bendix drive. The starter does occasionally get stuck in the ring gear. If the noise/rattle was from the ring gear then the sound would be much faster.

 

1 hour ago, DJ194950 said:

That is the strangest clutch pressure plate I have ever seen!  But is is on a 1928!

The fingers sit off from the usual 90 degrees. do they all seem in the same relative position??   The pictures make it look like they all not evenly positioned.

Clutch problem?

I would run the motor with and without clutch as listening for noises. Loose flywheel?

I had that problem on a 1950 Plymouth.

If still noisy after clutch removed/flywheel tightness checked then I would use a mechanics stethoscope for locate noise in the motor.

A some questions/thoughts.

 

DJ

 

No, the fingers are all correctly aligned, fairly common on the Chrysler brands, however, I believe (could be wrong) that the clutch plate is of a modern variety with the springs in the circle arrangement. It could be a clutch issue, which will be the next thing I check after running the motor without the gearbox attached.

 

Flywheel is not loose.

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what kind of pilot shaft bushing do you have? I suppose is bronze or babbit of some sort. Check to see if it is in good condition.

 

I once had a toyota with a "ball bearing" pilot shaft bearing. It went bad and was very noisy.

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Maok............re the last pics........the fingers as shown in pic # 4 of this last group seem to be not in the same angle across the clutch , the "bump" at the inner end of the finger is where the throwout bearing rides i assume?..............the 5th pic shows the outer end of the finger with that "knurled knob" thing on the outside which is used for what?.......preload?............and what looks like a long spring across and under(?) the knob?............we all are waiting to hear the results of this as it a new type of clutch for most of us.............lol..............do you have a local shop that builds clutches?...........andyd   

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22 minutes ago, Andydodge said:

Maok............re the last pics........the fingers as shown in pic # 4 of this last group seem to be not in the same angle across the clutch , the "bump" at the inner end of the finger is where the throwout bearing rides i assume?..............the 5th pic shows the outer end of the finger with that "knurled knob" thing on the outside which is used for what?.......preload?............and what looks like a long spring across and under(?) the knob?............we all are waiting to hear the results of this as it a new type of clutch for most of us.............lol..............do you have a local shop that builds clutches?...........andyd   

 

That is what I also assume it to be Andy,  preload the fingers to the throw out bearing. Everything there seems to be aligned and functioning. Unless with centrifugal forces the springs lose their hold cause the fingers to re-position, but what would they make contact with.

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On 11/24/2018 at 3:03 AM, maok said:

Yeah, its got me buggered Andy. I only have a few weddings remaining to do this year before I do the engine swap for the new one that is at the machinist.

 

The engine turns freely by hand with no noise or rattle, its very smooth. All the main caps and conrod nuts seem secure and tight, there is some play  in the big end caps but that is expected, its a very tired engine. The oil pump is secure and not loose in any way.

The amount of noise that happened, there really should be metal filings or obvious visual damage somewhere. The clutch all looks good, the thrust (throw out) bearing moves smoothly when the pedal is pushed, and can be moved by hand, the return spring works as it should. I am considering unbolting the clutch assembly but everything looks fine. The pivot fingers are all good, still spring loaded with no obvious damage.

I am considering bolting the oil pan back on and starting and running the engine  with the gearbox off to hopefully see something odd.

 

It could be a broken spring on the pressure plate.

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8 hours ago, knuckleharley said:

It could be a broken spring on the pressure plate.

Thanks mate, but they all look to be intact, however, I cant be 100% sure until I pull the clutch assembly off.

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Checked the inlet and exhaust valves and their springs this morning, they all looked to be intact, moving freely and not broken....DOH!!!

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