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I'm Hearing Something New...A Bearing Howling?


keithb7

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1953 Chrysler Windsor Deluxe C-60. I have been hearing a howl starting to develop, in what I think is the rear end maybe. It seems to be happening under certain conditions. I notice the sound climbing up the big hill back home. Only when navigating a turn in the road on the way up only. Going down the hill,  or driving around town, where it's flat I don't hear it. Last night coming up the hill I experimented a little. I could hear it on the turns on the way up. I put the tranny in neutral at the top, where it's flat again and coasted for a bit. No noise. Made the last turn in before my driveway, coasting in neutral and the sound was there for sure.  I suspect maybe an inner axle bearing?

 

I am not 100% sure on the workings of the diff. When I turn the car, the internal side and pinion gears walk around inside the diff case. Correct? This only happens while turning, when one wheel is turning faster than the other.  There are no bearings to support these side and pinion gears. Just pinion shafts and everything is submerged in the diff oil. 

 

A couple of things I am thinking. When I climb the hill home, the car is working it's hardest using every ounce of torque to maintain 30 or so mph. Is the diff under a fair amount of stress at this time? A failing bearing getting hot under this condition? The oil is topped up, I check it as part of my routine.  Maybe I am mis-diagnosing. If it were an inner or outer axle bearing, would it not make the howling noise at any time the axle it spinning? Straight while cruising around town too?

 

Next steps, I will drain the diff oil and see if anything comes out. I'll look for shiny small pieces of bearing material suspended in the oil. Is there a way to jack up the axle and turn the wheels to troubleshoot?  Any tips? While jacked up, is it possible to hold one rear wheel still while turning the other to get the diff gears turning? Maybe right after I climb the hill? I'd hate to dive in and start ripping stuff apart before diagnosing things properly. A failed bearing could be catastrophic to the diff if a bearing roller went through some gear sets. Likely taking off some gear teeth with it I suspect.

 

Maybe I will proceed to pull the carrier and get a good look. At the same time slide the axles out and change outer bearings and seals. I have never done this work before, but I think I can handle a good portion of it. Comments, tips appreciated, especially on the troubleshooting. Thanks.  - Keith

Edited by keithb7
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I have not yet had the opportunity to swerve side to side while maintaining the speed required to hear the noise. The roads up around my house are winding and not ideal to do this. I can tell you that I hear the howl while going up the hill when I either steer left or right up the twisty turns.

 

A trip on a straighter wide road with no trafffic may be required fo swerve at the required speed.  An old airport runway would be ideal. None around here. The old girl may not take much of a liking to swirving at 30 Mph. Lol. I may consider trying it though. My concern now is any trip in the car could potentially lead to a full bearing failure with a slew of contingent damage. 

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Wise move!   

I'll defer to others on this post that know more than I so I don't lead you astray.  Had a similar situation in a 1970 Olds 98 and it was the inner bearing.  Had it rebuilt at the shop so not sure what all was involved.  Smart to get it corrected early!  I'm totally enjoying your posts of your adventures.  Hot as heck here now, so old Daisy is in the garage under the car cover waiting for Fall.  

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Often times a rear wheel bearing that is worn will make a droning or humming sound when going around a corner and the noise may disappear  when going straight. Later if not corrected, the noise will be more prominent and occur all of the time. I have had this happen more that once in my 60+ years of driving. Good luck to you.

John R 

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I suspect that was the case John however with my limited axle bearing experience, I wanted hear from others. 

 

Sort of along these lines:?

In a tapered roller bearing, as the rollers wear,  clearance between the roller and cup increases. During a turn the weight of the car rolls to the left or right. Add inertia, then theres quite an increased load on a bearing. Especially an outer. As the increased wear allows for more movement, the cone to cup fit starts to increase.  The bearing may now start milling into the cup and getting noisy at times. Although on a very small scale, it indeed does compound if not addressed. 

 

I’m going in. I’ll start with the outer bearings and see what they look like. I will replace them regardless as service history is unknowm. 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, keithb7 said:
7 minutes ago, keithb7 said:

’m going in. I’ll start with the outer bearings and see what they look like. I will replace them regardless as service history is unknowm

 You will find that the old bearings that you pull have a number on them . If you have trouble finding them through the usual sources , try a shop that specializes in bearings . 

 

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I got to thinking. When I first went in behind my drums for the first time I found this.  I had no spare seal so I cleaned it up and reassembled. No sign of any leakage in 1000 miles since I cleaned it up. Yet, who knows how long this has been going on? I greased the bearing this spring. I figure I may as well start the discovery by checking this outer bearing. 

 

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So as soon as I got home from work today I dove into it. While I was preparing to pull the drum (waiting for my dear wife to hold the brake pedal down) I spun the drum. It did not turn nice and smooth. It felt a little bit lumpy. I figure bingo, gotta be this outer bearing. We shall see. The back side of the outer seal is in poor shape. Some tracing of rust too.

 

I got this far and I am without a puller to remove the axle. I am headed off to see what I can round up. Any suggestions what I need here to pull the axle? Will a slide hammer do it? Looking in the manual they show a cone shaped puller with a threaded rod and a T handle.  Hmm...

 

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Edited by keithb7
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I’ve pulled some with a slide hammer. And when I’ve had a stubborn one that wouldn’t come with the slide hammer I’ve used the drum and some spacers to pull them. I would place deep sockets, or short pieces of pipe over 2 or 3 studs, long enough that when you slide the drum back onto the axle shaft that there will be 1 or 2 threads showing. Then tighten the nut to draw the axle out, into the drum. Be careful not to get it tight into the drum again or you’ll need your other puller to get the drum off again. If the taper gets close to seating again just take it apart again, add a few washers under your spacers, and do it again. It’ll come right out.

The right size PVC pipe will work too, and you can cut a couple different lengths.  

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Slip the drum on the axle less the key...put the nut on 3-4 turns and slap the drum against the axle nut. The axle should come out after 4-5 whacks.

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Dodgeb4ya nailed it. The drum worked quickly. Thanks folks. Next hurdle. Getting the pressed-on bearing off the axle shaft. Any more backyard tricks?

431756AC-8585-4FEE-8970-C1EFB2844C2C.jpeg

Edited by keithb7
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First odd... carefully look at the bearing rollers and outer race. Do you see any pitting, flaking dis-coloring? The inner race is hard to see damage..but..

To get an idea if the bearing assembly is likely good or bad..

Clean/Flush out the bearing on the axle and race then lightly oil it...say like 3 in 1 oil..

Then...Push the outer bearing race tight against the bearing cone and rotate the race back and forth on the cone ...is it flawlessly smooth or you feel some roughness?

Ant lumps or roughness if the bearing is really clean after doing the above probably means a bad bearing, (outer race, inner race or rollers).

Shown below is a real bad one off a 53 Plymouth Savoy wagon I once drove... it didn't make a lot of noise either!

Also a tiny pit in a quiet U-joint cross off a 56 Chrysler.. all bad things to see... All bearing surfaces have to be 100% perfect in appearance.

1953 Ply Axle shaft worn bearings (2).JPG

U Joint Cross JC (5).JPG

Edited by Dodgeb4ya
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When I pulled the axle I was able to see that the grease cavity behind the cone only had the recent grease in it that I added this spring. It was not much compared to the area. I was guessing how much to put in there as I had no idea if the previous owner ever greased this. I am doubtful now that I have seen it apart, that the previous owner ever added any grease here. I cleaned up the bearing as you said and it does not feel smooth as I'd like. I'm in this far now I will replace these bearings and both seals.

 

I watched a few YT videos on removing and installing bearings. I think I may have some contacts with a shop press in their garage so we can do this. I will order new inner seals as well so I should be well and good for a some years, as well as piece of mind on longer trips. This may or may not address the howling I heard but is part of my goal to get through this part of the car for reliability and piece of mind. Once back together I will test ride and then consider the inner bearings if needed. I drained the diff today. No chunks and the oil appears clean of any, at least visible, metal flakes or particles.

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Parts ordered. New Tiimken bearings and inner & outer seals. Both sides. Now we sit back, have a cold one and wait. Oh the joys of shipping times up here in Canada. 

 

 

Edited by keithb7
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when you go to re install make sure the bearings have .... look it up but I think it is .003 endplay.    that is what the shims are for.  This allows for the axle shaft to expand.

 

 

 

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I opened up the right axle today. This being my second time in there now, I had some experience! This time I knew what to pay more attention to now that I had my head wrapped around the design, placement of parts, and the right tools for the job. I did buy a slide hammer kit on Friday evening. That made pulling the inner seals an absolute breeze. The RH axle was harder to pull using the "drum-hammering" method as described above by @Dodgeb4ya. With a little perseverance it came off. The bearing had not failed but it was lumpy after I cleaned it and rotated it by hand.  Here is what I found when I got into things. I'm certainly enjoying this project.  I am now pretty sure there is where my howling noise was coming from.  

 

In the interest of contributing to this great group, I will share this quick video. Those who have not been in their axles may learn something. This all reminds me of a saying an old guy told me 30 years ago. "There is no substitute for experience. Read and study all you like, but you must gain experience", he said. That discussion has replayed in my head so many times in my life.

 

 

 

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You need to have both axles properly installed to check each axle shaft end play!

There is a square steel block in the center of the diff that each axle pushes against. It is always loose and floppy on a pinion gear shaft and without both axle ends pushing against this center block you will get this false end play with one axle pulled out.

The shop manual and others here can guide you more on this fun learning project of adjusting Mopar tapered rear axle bearings with even shims side to side... .003to .008" end play.

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Thanks for the tips. I will check bearing end play when both axles are re-installed. The bearing was quite lumpy upon removal so I am hopeful the new outer bearings will fix things up! I pulled the shims from each side and saved them. I see that in the my parts book they were available at .005", .010" ,0.0125", .015" and .030". are they readily available to buy today? I don't see any in the Bermbaum catalog.

Edited by keithb7
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Shims are not easily available.... especially in the thinner range. .012 on up are more common IMO.

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Check with any good bearing supply shop as bearing shim material should be available in various thicknesses that you can cut to size and use a hole punch to make the holes.....at least thats what I did yrs ago when I played with the late 50's axle in my Dodge.............andyd 

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Left side on top, right on bottom in pic.  The right side was in worse shape. Am I seeing some early signs of heat dis-coloration? 

 

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Edited by keithb7
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On 7/6/2018 at 8:49 PM, keithb7 said:

Dodgeb4ya nailed it. The drum worked quickly. Thanks folks. Next hurdle. Getting the pressed-on bearing off the axle shaft. Any more backyard tricks?

 

 

Cut the retainler and then push the inner race off with a air hammer and a punch. Of course that won't work to reinstall the new one. That requires a press 

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