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Advice needed on Carter Ball and Ball dual carb setup


FourCornersGreg

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Hi everyone, I am new to this board. I have purchased a 51 Plymouth Cranbrook Belvedere with stock 218 flathead 6 that I will be trailoring home next month. I've been scouring the internet looking for ideas on a dual carb, dual exhaust setup for this engine. I have seen people using everything from weber 32's, to strombergs, to holley 94's, to 9 super 7's for twin carb setups. I would prefer to stick with a pair of carter ball and balls to stay true to period. I see the offenhauser dual carb manifold available on summit racing with two hole flanges which appears to made for original carter carbs. I am looking for the right pair of carter ball and balls to pair with this engine. My homework tells me I need two single barrel carbs which are approx 125 cfm's apiece based on the amount of air the 218 is capable of sucking. I didn't a picture of the stampings on the existing carb, but it looks like this car would have rolled out of the factory with either the Carter BB D6H1, or D6H2. Just looking for advice on a pair of Carters for this setup, I don't want to be running rich, want to be right in the sweet spot. I cannot find any technical specs on any of the old Carters on the web anywhere, if someone has a pdf file or link on this can you please share, or just let me know what has worked/hasn't worked from personal experience. Not looking to get performance crazy, just looking for a modest step up in performance. I may add an aftermarket head for a modest increase in compression at some point down the road. I'm at 7100' above sea level which means I'm already losing HP, and will need to run smaller jets than most of you. I want to stay stock but will need every ounce of HP this engine can make, without spending thousands of dollars on boring cylinders, performance cam, etc. Thanks in advance, Greg for SW CO.

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35 minutes ago, FourCornersGreg said:

Hi everyone, I am new to this board. I have purchased a 51 Plymouth Cranbrook Belvedere with stock 218 flathead 6 that I will be trailoring home next month. I've been scouring the internet looking for ideas on a dual carb, dual exhaust setup for this engine. I have seen people using everything from weber 32's, to strombergs, to holley 94's, to 9 super 7's for twin carb setups. I would prefer to stick with a pair of carter ball and balls to stay true to period. I see the offenhauser dual carb manifold available on summit racing with two hole flanges which appears to made for original carter carbs. I am looking for the right pair of carter ball and balls to pair with this engine. My homework tells me I need two single barrel carbs which are approx 125 cfm's apiece based on the amount of air the 218 is capable of sucking. I didn't a picture of the stampings on the existing carb, but it looks like this car would have rolled out of the factory with either the Carter BB D6H1, or D6H2. Just looking for advice on a pair of Carters for this setup, I don't want to be running rich, want to be right in the sweet spot. I cannot find any technical specs on any of the old Carters on the web anywhere, if someone has a pdf file or link on this can you please share, or just let me know what has worked/hasn't worked from personal experience. Not looking to get performance crazy, just looking for a modest step up in performance. I may add an aftermarket head for a modest increase in compression at some point down the road. I'm at 7100' above sea level which means I'm already losing HP, and will need to run smaller jets than most of you. I want to stay stock but will need every ounce of HP this engine can make, without spending thousands of dollars on boring cylinders, performance cam, etc. Thanks in advance, Greg for SW CO.

Pretty much any of the single barrel carbs that came on inline 6's will work for you. Buy whatever you can find a matching pair in for the least amount of money,and go from there. It SEEMS like the single barrel Holley used on Fords are selling for the least amount of money these days,and kits are easy to find and cheap to buy to rebuild them.

 

All these flat 6 engines were basically the same size,so undercarbing or overcarbing isn't a major concern. The flat 6 Fords were 226 cubic inches,the OHV Chevy straight 6's were 235 cubic inches,and the Mopars were mostly 218 or 230 cubic inches.

 

I have been told the Offy intake offers the least performance increase and the Edmunds offers the most,but I doubt anyone could tell the difference in an everyday street driven car. The Offy is still being made and is the cheapest,and some of the others can be a bit pricey due to being rare these days.

 

I would be VERY careful to not buy a race intake,though. Buy one that has water heat to heat your carb in the winter. Race intakes don't offer heat.

 

You can go to the for classifieds section on this board and find people making and selling performance cams,intakes,and even new finned aluminum higher compression heads.  There may even be somebody selling used stuff there today for all I know,but I do know that is the first place you should look.

Edited by knuckleharley
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35 minutes ago, knuckleharley said:

I would be VERY careful to not buy a race intake,though. Buy one that has water heat to heat your carb in the winter. Race intakes don't offer heat.

 

Thanks for the advice. Were the original single carb intakes on these engines water cooled? I don't have the car in my possesion yet so I can't take a look.

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12 minutes ago, FourCornersGreg said:

 

Thanks for the advice. Were the original single carb intakes on these engines water cooled? I don't have the car in my possesion yet so I can't take a look.

The original intakes were bolted right to the exhaust manifold,so getting heat wasn't a problem.

 

Some aftermarket intakes bolt to the exhaust manifold,and some don't. On the ones that don't,most are tapped so warm water from the radiator flows through them to warm up the carb.

 

Race intakes have no need of such devices,though. When you are looking to buy an aftermarket intake,just look for one that has the fittings for water hoses to the car heater box. Most have it.

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Call George Ashe in Pa.  He is the carter b1b guru.  He makes dual intakes from stock pieces or he will tailor a pair of carters for how ever you set up your engine.  I am running a Fenton intake with a pair of his carbs which except for idle adjustment I haven't touched since 2006.  My 56 230 engine gives me19 mpg, and 127 rear wheel hp on regular gas with 411 rear gears.  Phone only, 45 minutes is considered a short conversation with George but worth it even if you don't do business with him.  814 345 2621.  Welcome aboard!

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I'd suggest to go with the Offy intake as at least its available and relatively cheap, unless you do find an Edmunds or other old brand but I'd be doubtfull if the difference, if there is one in performance is really that noticeable.........I was building this 230 engine but never got around to installing it as I sold the car & it......I used an Offy intake and a pair of stock exhaust manifolds modified to clear the RHD steering box that we in Oz have to contend with, if you can afford it an Edgy head will help however the BEST improvement i made was to install a HEI dissy from Tom Langdon at Stovebolt Engineering...made a huge difference to starting and general running..........welcome aboard from Oz.......andyd  

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Thanks for the welcome comments guys. Seems like a good bunch here. I will probably be on here a lot with a bunch of rookie questions, wrenched on cars most of my life but new to old flatheads. That's a nice setup andydodge. It looks like you cut the stock exhaust manifold in half and welded or brazed on caps, then drilled and welded on dual flanges is this correct? Nice. Looks like you are running Carter BBs as well, what kind? The Edgy heads are nice looking but appear to be really spendy for a modest increase in HP. Wonder how much increase in HP people are really getting with the shaved head. The Edgy head is probably on the dream list for now.....

Edited by FourCornersGreg
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I'd get maybe 30-50thou off the original head which should increase the ratio at least 1/2 to 1 full point, as for the exhaust manifold because it was going into the RHD 41 Plymouth Coupe and the steering box lived between the oil and fuel pumps  it meant that Fenton style cast iron headers would not fit.......the front one would hit the steering box and the rear one would be collected by either of the brake & clutch pedals or both as they followed thru......so........Plymouth used 3 different exhaust manifolds.........a front dump with the outlet between # 2 & #3 cylinders.....a "centre" dump with the outlet between cylinders 5 & 6.......and a "rear" dump with the outlet between cylinders 6 and 7(???....lol)..........so I found 2 exhaust manifolds, a front and a centre dump, cut the front and rear parts off respectively and took each piece to my local Blacksmith(I live in country Australia, town or area  of about 30,00 people) who had no problem in welding a block off plate on each end and DAH, DAH.........a pair of cast iron headers, that will fit as the car had the "centre" style outlet as stock and the front outlet with that mocked up pipe would clear..........now for the carbys..........bad news if you are in the USA, which I gather you are as these are Oz single barrel Strombergs which were used on Oz GM Holden cars with a six cylinder engine from 1964 thru the the late 70's, the Holdens were from 179 to 202 cubes and are a bolt on and much easier to get parts etc for here in Oz.......as far as I know they were never used in the USA however they were made by Bendix here in Oz and sold as Bendix Strombergs........as for the Edgy head in about 2008/9 I imported it from the USA and with shipping it owed me about $1100.00 Australian........btw I'm pleased you didn't ask about the water pump...........lol...........err......yep thats not mopar either and is another Oz Holden 6 part with an alloy adaptor..it was there when I bought the ex Sydney Airport Tug 230 engine...........the 41 plymouth I had was an older resto when I got it and already had one of the Holden carbys installed, see pic..........I added the HEI and Beehive Oil filter, lowered it 2", installed the Chrome Smoothies and Coker Whitewalls, added the tacho and imported the Fulton Visor........and like a dope sold it a couple of yrs ago.............duH!!!.............lol..............andyd         

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Welcome Greg!  Dual carbs is the way to go. In finishing up my 'P10 wagon which has a later 218, I took two Carter BB (either D6H1, or D6H2 carbs, I can't remember) and sent them to be rebuilt at a reputable shop down in the L.A. area. I used George Asche split intake and exhaust manifolds, just like Don C's and  then recombined the pipe into a larger single tail pipe, as the woodie doesn't have room for twin pipes due to the stock gas tank location. I tuned them using a vacuum gauge and they work really well. Acceleration and top end are both good, and I get 14-16 mpg. There wasn't enough room for 2 stock oil bath air cleaners, so I contacted the local Crosley club, purchased two rusty but usable Crosley oil bath air cleaners (which to me look remarkably like the Dodge truck dual cleaners for the Pilothouse trucks, which are now like hen's teeth). I cut the bottoms off 2 stock cleaners and welded them onto the Crosleys as the openings were too small for the Plymouth. 

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2 hours ago, Bob Riding said:

Welcome Greg!  Dual carbs is the way to go. In finishing up my 'P10 wagon which has a later 218, I took two Carter BB (either D6H1, or D6H2 carbs, I can't remember) and sent them to be rebuilt at a reputable shop down in the L.A. area. I used George Asche split intake and exhaust manifolds, just like Don C's and  then recombined the pipe into a larger single tail pipe, as the woodie doesn't have room for twin pipes due to the stock gas tank location. I tuned them using a vacuum gauge and they work really well. Acceleration and top end are both good, and I get 14-16 mpg. There wasn't enough room for 2 stock oil bath air cleaners, so I contacted the local Crosley club, purchased two rusty but usable Crosley oil bath air cleaners (which to me look remarkably like the Dodge truck dual cleaners for the Pilothouse trucks, which are now like hen's teeth). I cut the bottoms off 2 stock cleaners and welded them onto the Crosleys as the openings were too small for the Plymouth. 

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You get 14-16 mpg on local drives,right? What do you get on the highway with the OD engaged?

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1 hour ago, knuckleharley said:

You get 14-16 mpg on local drives,right? What do you get on the highway with the OD engaged?

 

We drove it to the Woodies on the Wharf show in Santa Cruz last year and I think we averaged 19-21 mpg, crusing at 60-65. I've had it up to 75mph, but I'm not sure that you really want to go much faster in a car made mostly of toothpicks ?

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4 hours ago, casper50 said:

Bob my inquiring mind wants to know.  Does it sound different with split back into one compared to single all the way?

Not that I can really tell...a little throatier maybe?

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1 hour ago, Bob Riding said:

We drove it to the Woodies on the Wharf show in Santa Cruz last year and I think we averaged 19-21 mpg, crusing at 60-65. I've had it up to 75mph, but I'm not sure that you really want to go much faster in a car made mostly of toothpicks ?

Thanks,that's what I was expecting to hear on the gas mileage on the open road.

 

IMHO as a geezer,75 MPH is too damn fast for a stock 1939 car. They just don't have the brakes and the suspensions of modern cars,and a blowout in a woody wagon could easily lead to the death of the wagon,if not the people inside it.

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I appreciate all the responses and nice to see an old school pre facebook forum is alive and kicking. I have all kinds of questions, like the overdrive upgrade and some other stuff which is for another thread, wouldn't mind adding some seat belts maybe, etc. Great info on everyone's twin carb, dual exhaust setups and the milled head spec sheet is handy. I've convinced myself I'm staying with Carter ball and balls. I will find out if this old 51 Plymouth Cranbrook Belvedere runs when I get it home next month. Hoping to avoid a complete overhaul but I'll do what it takes. Under the hood the spark plugs and plug wires were relatively new along with newer oil and fuel filters, which makes me think it's been running in the not too distant past. Getting it from an antique dealer, it's last owner passed on. Being out here in the four corners area, it has relatively little rust, and everything is mostly original and all there. Thanks everyone.

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First thing is get all of that old gas out and clean the fuel tank and clean up the carb, all new fluids, filters, etc. Compression test, oil pressure test. I could probably use a fuel can just to determine if it runs. And of course crank it over by hand a few times. Maybe spray some fogging oil in the cylinder chambers. Some Marvel Mystery Oil in the oil for an engine clean out, and see if I can get it to at least fire. I don't know if it's still original 6V or it's been converted to 12V. Lotta work ahead. I'm assuming 10W-40 minimum thickness, maybe even 15W-40 or 20W-50 in the summer, what are you guys running? What is consensus on rev limit on the 218? 4K? 4.5K? I don't really wanna push it hard just wondering. Too many questions.

Edited by FourCornersGreg
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57 minutes ago, FourCornersGreg said:

First thing is get all of that old gas out and clean the fuel tank and clean up the carb, all new fluids, filters, etc. Compression test, oil pressure test. I could probably use a fuel can just to determine if it runs. And of course crank it over by hand a few times. Maybe spray some fogging oil in the cylinder chambers. Some Marvel Mystery Oil in the oil for an engine clean out, and see if I can get it to at least fire. I don't know if it's still original 6V or it's been converted to 12V. Lotta work ahead. I'm assuming 10W-40 minimum thickness, maybe even 15W-40 or 20W-50 in the summer, what are you guys running? What is consensus on rev limit on the 218? 4K? 4.5K? I don't really wanna push it hard just wondering. Too many questions.

Do yourself a favor and just spend the 230 bucks for a new gas tank and be done with it. Buy a new gas line (copper/nickel you can bend with your hands), fuel pump,and inline filter rated to handle ethanol and be done with that.

 

Rebuild the carb. It will be ok for a short while,and then it will start leaking at a minimum. Avoid the rollback ride,and do this at home and save the rollback money.

 

Replace all the vacuum hoses with new ones.

 

Same with everything related to the brakes including all the lines. Replace them.

 

If it has been sitting for more than a year or two figure on replacing the water pump. You can probably get by with it for a couple of weeks,but it is going to start leaking.

 

Don't forget to replace the radiator hoses,heater hoses and the thermostat.

 

Try to reverse flush the radiator to try and get any rust out of it.

 

If you are going to drive it even occasionally,all this must be done if you want to avoid expensive rollback rides home.

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My dad always said, you really only need good tires and brakes...everything else is a "want". For safety upgrades on the woodie, I'm running wide- white Coker radials, front disk brakes, with dual reservoir master cylinder, seat belts, turn signals, and halogen headlights (that look like original sealed beams) - all 6 volt

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