55 Fargo Posted March 28, 2018 Report Share Posted March 28, 2018 Hey all, gave the old tired 228 its annual physical, and she is getting a little more tired after what could be a 63 year service record without being opened up for surgery. Compression 85-90, Cyl 4 gave me a 60 psi reading then 85, no changes for the oil squirt test. Cylinder leak down test, 4 cylinders leaning over 60 percent, and 2 cylinder in the 20-30 percent range. All air escaping sounds like out of the crankcase. Vacuum reading at idle about 16 inches of merc, and a slight needle quiver, getting it any higher would involve advancing timing like crazy. Plugs after a good run look good slightly rich, but not bad at all. Oil pressure is great 35-40 psi at 500 rpm idle when hot, and 55 psi at speed, with 10 W 40 oil. It does not burn blue or smoke oil. Its time, for another engine, hopefully later this year, will be a 265, not sure if I will be rebuilding mine, or have another rebuilt 265 in the wings... Be interested in whether there are broken rings,, burnt valves and sloppy guide clearances... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertKB Posted March 28, 2018 Report Share Posted March 28, 2018 It actually sounds pretty good to me. Probably lots of miles left in the old girl. I know a couple of my flatties are a bit weak but considering how few miles I put on them there is not much point in doing anything unless really necessary. I know your truck is the only flathead you drive so a nice 265 would be fun. Assume you would change over dual carbs and other add ons you have done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55 Fargo Posted March 28, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2018 54 minutes ago, RobertKB said: It actually sounds pretty good to me. Probably lots of miles left in the old girl. I know a couple of my flatties are a bit weak but considering how few miles I put on them there is not much point in doing anything unless really necessary. I know your truck is the only flathead you drive so a nice 265 would be fun. Assume you would change over dual carbs and other add ons you have done. Hi Rob, no it's not like the engine is incapacitated , it's weak and tired. General around town driving maybe not too bad, on highway in high winds or hills or getting up to speed on busy roads, not so fun. It's amazing how they soldier on an on, real Troopers these engines... The duals, yes they add a little power, look Kool and sound good too, on a fresh 265 it could be night and day difference compared to a tired old 228 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithb7 Posted March 28, 2018 Report Share Posted March 28, 2018 I have some valve guide clearance issues. I am fairly certain of it. I did a valve grind last summer. Middle of cruising season. First summer with the car. I wanted a faster fix. I felt some play in #1 and #2 valve to guide clearance. I buttoned it up anyway. It rus great. Compression went back up. Only symptom is dropping 1000 feet in elevation in low gear on a long hill. Using the engine compression to help hold my speed down. Then the engine becomes a vacuum pump. Sucking air into the cylinders anywhere it can. With the carb throttle closed, it’ll pull crankcase air up the worn guide. A little oil comes with it. Then I get a little blue out the tail pipe. I am contemplating going back in there at some point to install new guides. Or just leave it as is. Its not bad. Until it gets considerably worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55 Fargo Posted March 28, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2018 1 hour ago, keithb7 said: I have some valve guide clearance issues. I am fairly certain of it. I did a valve grind last summer. Middle of cruising season. First summer with the car. I wanted a faster fix. I felt some play in #1 and #2 valve to guide clearance. I buttoned it up anyway. It rus great. Compression went back up. Only symptom is dropping 1000 feet in elevation in low gear on a long hill. Using the engine compression to help hold my speed down. Then the engine becomes a vacuum pump. Sucking air into the cylinders anywhere it can. With the carb throttle closed, it’ll pull crankcase air up the worn guide. A little oil comes with it. Then I get a little blue out the tail pipe. I am contemplating going back in there at some point to install new guides. Or just leave it as is. Its not bad. Until it gets considerably worse. Drive it, your engine sounds like its doing fine, and it's a 265, way more torque than a little 228. My engine is old and tired and want to build my 265 dream engine...LOL I have 1 265 engine on my shop floor, and 2 more in the wings... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55 Fargo Posted March 29, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2018 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverdome Posted March 29, 2018 Report Share Posted March 29, 2018 55 Fargo, where did you get the air cleaners? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55 Fargo Posted March 29, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2018 4 hours ago, Silverdome said: 55 Fargo, where did you get the air cleaners? Ebay $75 each Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverdome Posted March 29, 2018 Report Share Posted March 29, 2018 10 minutes ago, 55 Fargo Spitfire said: Ebay $75 each They look as if they fit the Carter 1bbl carbs perfect. Did you have to modify them in any way? Do you have the vendors link? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55 Fargo Posted March 29, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2018 53 minutes ago, Silverdome said: They look as if they fit the Carter 1bbl carbs perfect. Did you have to modify them in any way? Do you have the vendors link? Well the plastic rings that went around the carbs first I ended up not using they were crap. I made my own out of rubber. These are intended for GM carbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashBuddy Posted March 29, 2018 Report Share Posted March 29, 2018 $14.58 - Amazon.com Not as pretty, grant you that. Color me frugal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithb7 Posted March 29, 2018 Report Share Posted March 29, 2018 Getting back to the vacuum question in the video. Tell us newbs more please. I’ve never used a vacuum gage to troubleshoot an engine. Fluttering? Meaning valve sealing issues I’d guess? You stated that your engine is creating 14-15 on the vacuum gage. What would a normal healthy engine draw? 17-18? More? I’d like to learn more. I’ll guess that low vacuum numbers could be a result of: Worn rings? Scored cylinder walls? Improper valve clearances? Or other valve train problems impeding proper valve operation? Valves not sealing properly? Excessive carbon build up on rings? Worn sloppy tmining chain? A hole or other damage in a piston? Do tell. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55 Fargo Posted March 29, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2018 Vacuum was 15 to 16 inches of mercury, should be 18-21 in a healthy engine. A cam with higher lift and duration would read lower as per the over lap on the valves. Slight fluttering can be a few things, poor sealing rings or valves even ignition problems. Vacuum leaks can be seen as low reading maybe 8-12 inches Your engine is most likely in the good range, as your compression is good and valves are sealing. Worn valve guides might display up and down readings. Mine in the recent pas was about 17, compression is down, so is the vacuum draw, cylinders are leaking as verified in the Leak Down Test... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55 Fargo Posted March 29, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2018 1 hour ago, FlashBuddy said: $14.58 - Amazon.com Not as pretty, grant you that. Color me frugal. Not a big deal, but those filters are darn small too, some stack em... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Balazs Posted March 29, 2018 Report Share Posted March 29, 2018 A couple of things to chew on. 1)Paper elements tend to be somewhat restrictive compared to the old oil bath. I wonder if you ran the vacuum test without the air filter if it might not read slightly higher? 2) What happens if you do a slight adjustment to the timing? You could try this and see if it makes a difference. Lots of old time tuners used this method to get older engines to run at their best. 3) I found on my truck that a treatment with MMNO improved the reading. I added a pint to the crankcase and ran it this way for about 100 miles then changed the oil. I know it is speculation but I think It must have cleaned up the rings a bit as vacuum reading increased about an inch or so with no other adjustments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55 Fargo Posted March 29, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2018 57 minutes ago, Jeff Balazs said: A couple of things to chew on. 1)Paper elements tend to be somewhat restrictive compared to the old oil bath. I wonder if you ran the vacuum test without the air filter if it might not read slightly higher? 2) What happens if you do a slight adjustment to the timing? You could try this and see if it makes a difference. Lots of old time tuners used this method to get older engines to run at their best. 3) I found on my truck that a treatment with MMNO improved the reading. I added a pint to the crankcase and ran it this way for about 100 miles then changed the oil. I know it is speculation but I think It must have cleaned up the rings a bit as vacuum reading increased about an inch or so with no other adjustments. Yes these items can dial it in a bit more. My engine is old and tired, many miles on an engine never opened. Cylinder leak down tests are far more conclusive than a compression or vacuum test. The engines runs and idles well, but is down on power, and lack of compression and blowby is the cause... Not a big deal, as I have a 265 to build to go into the 228s place... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55 Fargo Posted March 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2018 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55 Fargo Posted March 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2018 Okay here is the engine warmed up after a run and idling. No big blasts of blowby out of filler tube when you hit the throttle. And its cold outside today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T120 Posted March 30, 2018 Report Share Posted March 30, 2018 Different gauge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55 Fargo Posted March 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2018 16 minutes ago, T120 said: Different gauge? Nope have 2 gauges used both. Same results. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T120 Posted March 30, 2018 Report Share Posted March 30, 2018 31 minutes ago, 55 Fargo Spitfire said: Nope have 2 gauges used both. Same results. And...If I was from Missouri? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55 Fargo Posted March 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, T120 said: And...If I was from Missouri? Well you aint " Frost Back"....lol Aint I aint makin another video today...lol Both gauges will flicker and read lower, if I retard the timing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T120 Posted March 30, 2018 Report Share Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) Some gauges can indicate a difference with their unique calibration, dampening. I noticed the quivering and the frequency of your first measurement and thought it may be due to spark/ignition. Tuning an engine is an interesting topic. With your results I would say, drive it . Edited March 30, 2018 by T120 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55 Fargo Posted March 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2018 8 minutes ago, T120 said: Some gauges can indicate a difference with their unique calibration, dampening. I noticed the quivering and the frequency of your first measurement and thought it may be due to spark/ignition. Tuning an engine is an interesting topic. With your results I would say, drive it . Thanx its not bad. Have a look at the blowby.. It is bad? I was just joking about the frostback stuff just for clarification Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T120 Posted March 30, 2018 Report Share Posted March 30, 2018 Not a problem, where I live Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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