The Great Frame, Sub Frame, IFS Stock, Truck I Beam Debate Thread

[55 Fargo]

Hey all, 

over the years and especially in more relatively recent times, the topic of frame swaps, front end clips, or Mopar IFS stock, and the case of the trucks good old I beams.

Now lay it on us, why you want to, or have done so, a frame or clip swap.

Those who have remained stock, share all your opinions and concerns too.

The 40s and 50s Mopar IFS was well ahead of its time.

My 55 Fargo, with I beam, typical truck, much like big trucks still today.

Rides a bit different, but in good condition, is not bad with radial tires, new shocks, less springs and new parts.

The cars, my 47 Chrysler , IFS anti-sway bars front and rear, rode and handled well, steering a tad sloppy and the stock shock location gave you the "boat float" ride.

So lets hear the stories, Pro and Con, but lets keep Civil boys and ( Lady Members) and above the belt...

 

 

 

[knuckleharley]

"Those who have remained stock, share all your opinions and concerns too."

 

If it ain't broke,don't fix it.

[plymjim]

  Many years ago I swapped a Dodge hemi into a '48 Plym.

Notched & reboxed the frame to move the stock steering box

out of the way, got a set of '48 taxi cab springs to

bring the ride height back up off the floor & it rode

& steered like stock. Can't imagine Welding the front half

of a Chevy onto a Mopar. Would that make it a Plymolet?  

 On the other hand, if you bought it guess you can do

whatever you like, right?

[Andydodge]

My 1940 Dodge has used 1941-56 upper A arms & stub axles, 1940 lower A arms, heavy duty unrelocated shocks and a 1" adjustable sway bar on the front with reset rear springs & heavy duty shocks on the rear.......rides reasonably well and with a 9" narrowed Austin 1800 rack & shortened steering arms steers well........4 wheel discs make it stop even better......... its been like this for over 40yrs.............I understand why others prefer an original driving, riding, stopping & steering car............we all have our poison.........lol.......andyd   

[DrDoctor]

Andy,

   Did you encounter any major problems with putting later model A-arms on your car. I’ve been wondering if putting later model upper and lower A-arms, along with the commensurate spindles/brakes/etc, would make parts availability any better. But, now that the car sits more than it moves (it runs and drives just fine, we just don’t enjoy driving it like we used to . . .), so, at this point, it may be moot. Warmest regards. Thx.

[Andydodge]

Doc.......the reason I put the 1941 onwards upper A arms is that from 1940 on the upper inner pivot is the same so its just a matter of bolting the 1941 on arm onto the 1940 chassis, then you also use the 1941 on upper outer pin & bush with the 1940 spindle...........the lower A arm I used is the 1940 arm.........the stub axle I used was actually here in Oz from an Oz only 1962 Chrysler Royal which is based on the 1954 US Plymouth but as the Plymouth stub axles are the same from 1941 thru to 1956 in the USA you could pretend thats what I used........lol........the 1" sway bar is the same shape as the original 1940 sway bar BUT instead of having a sort of "ball" that fits into the sway bar link the 1" bar has a flattened end then drilled to take a bolt thru it to an heim jointed adjustable link that bolts onto the front of the lower shock pin instead of the lower sway bar link............I was lucky to find Moog cast steel replacement 1941 onwards upper A arms  & I used them because they were a much stronger piece than the original 1940 upper A arm tho' I would have used the stock Plymouth stamped steel upper arms if I hadn't found the MOOG pieces.............the 1941 on style stub axle was used because it was easier to make the disc brake caliper bracket fit  and the 1" sway bar was to firm up the front suspension.............if your car is a 1941 onwards car then essentially what you have is what i ended up with.......except for the sway bar which from 1942 I think locates into the front edge of the lower A arm......I was lucky when I was doing all this to be living in Sydney, nearby to the 2 largest aftermarket suspension companies in Oz, KMac and Selbys suspensions so getting the sway bar made was no problem, just took the original bar to Kmac, told them what Iwanted and picked it up a week later............the mopar suspension parts all came from Sydneys largest mopar wrecker who also had a huge range of new parts and back then just let me rummage thru everything and charged me almost nothing..........lol...........thems was the days............have attached an old pic taken from the rear........you can see the upper sway bar link bolt and the sway bar .........have also attached a pic of a MOOG 41-54/56(?) upper A arm that I used, you can see that its a much stronger piece than the stock 40-56 mopar arm...................trust this makes sense..........i tend to waffle on a bit........lol....................regards, andyd        

[pflaming]

To this day, I remember driving a friend's '51 Plymouth and was AMAZED at the ease of steering and with fewer revolutions of the steering wheel, we had a '52 Ford Victoria.  For that reason alone, I like the stock MOPAR front suspension. The engine, well EVERY ONE who sees  the six, say, to the effect, "WOW, you kept the old engine!" 

 

Like others, i have changed to front disc brakes, 12 volt wiring and alternator, 3:73 rear axle, but have an original patina exterior.

 

My vehicle is a B3B. 

Edited March 28, 2018 by pflaming

[RobertKB]

On ‎2018‎-‎03‎-‎26 at 3:47 PM, knuckleharley said:

"Those who have remained stock, share all your opinions and concerns too."

 

If it ain't broke,don't fix it.

 

Exactly. Most people know I like my cars mechanically stock. Only thing I will usually change on a restoration is interior materials and colours.

[55 Fargo]

Thanx for sharing Guys, be nice to hear from some of the Truck People,  who stayed stock, maybe added some upgrades, and enjoying them as they area.

The truck suspensions, are not much different than big trucks are still built today..

[59bisquik]

I kept mine fairly stock and don't believe in frame swaps. I had Nostalgia Sid drop my front axle by 3" and removed one leaf from the spring pack up front and added disc brakes. In the rear, I pulled 3 leafs out of a 7 leaf pack and used the WIlly's shackles. I have modern radials and new suspension/springs all around. It rides smooth and looks better in my opinion with the altitude lowered. 

 

I dont tow or haul anything with it, so the softer ride will not hurt anything for me. When I need to tow or haul I have a 1 ton with a Cummins for that. 

 

Edited March 28, 2018 by 59bisquik

[55 Fargo]

19 minutes ago, 59bisquik said:

I kept mine fairly stock and don't believe in frame swaps. I had Nostalgia Sid drop my front axle by 3" and removed one leaf from the spring pack up front and added disc brakes. In the rear, I pulled 3 leafs out of a 7 leaf pack and used the WIlly's shackles. I have modern radials and new suspension/springs all around. It rides smooth and looks better in my opinion with the altitude lowered. 

 

I dont tow or haul anything with it, so the softer ride will not hurt anything for me. When I need to tow or haul I have a 1 ton with a Cummins for that. 

 

Hey that looks real good. How does the Before and after ride and handling compare?

 

[59bisquik]

It’s night and day. But in all fairness, I replaced all the springs, shackles, tie rod ends, shocks and king pins while lowering it. 

 

Now it rides much more car like and not like a buck board. It’s comfortable to drive at 70-75mph hiway speeds too. 

 

I drive a 4wd 1 ton diesel as a daily driver. It’s nice to get in the 55 and have a nice smooth ride.

[DrDoctor]

Andy,

   Thank you for the explanation. I’ve read it several times, not because I didn’t understand it, but rather—because I found it very interesting. The comparisons between the U.S. and Australia are fascinating to me.

   Do you know why England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales drive on the left side of the road? It dates back to medieval times when knights rode their horses in jousts. Statistics vary, but approximately 13% of the world’s population is left handed. So, the knights rode on the left so they could use their dominant hand for their sword and/or lances. Australia followed in England’s footsteps, by virtue of being part of the British Common Wealth.

   Winston Churchill popularized a phrase from George Bernard Shaw, when he used this paraphrased variant: "The Americans and the British are one people separated by a common language." So, while you “waffle on abit”, I just “ramble on”. Different, yet the same.

   And, do I remember just going to my favorite junk yard on a Saturday morning, and just wander around looking for “just the right part”. Yeah, again paraphrasing your comment—“those were the days. . .”.

   Warmest regards, my friend.

[Andydodge]

Hey Doc...........no worries mate!!..........lol.........andyd

[DrDoctor]

Hey, Andy,

   Do you know if there’s such a thing as a translation dictionary for American-English/British-English, or American-English/Australian-English, or British-English/Australian-English, etc, much like already exists for English/French, or English/Spanish??? If not, maybe we could capture a here-to-for overlooked/untapped market. . . . . Hmmmmm. . . . . Just a tho’t . . . . . .

[DrDoctor]

Hey, Andy,

   Yet another tho’t, albeit not just a random one. What do you think about putting on a late-model front suspension, say from a 1972 Ford, or similar era GM, from the a-arm shafts outward, onto an older Plymouth’s frame??? Sounds simple—just remove the original Plymouth suspension from the pivot shafts on outward, and bolt on the later-model pivot shafts to the Plymouth’s frame, and then assemble the remaining components per Ford/GM protocol. Hmmmm . . . . . . . I think Knuckleharley would say that I’ve got way tooooo much time on my hands. Remember the song of the same name by Styx? Now I’ve got that running thru my mind, in stereo! Warmest regards!!!

[knuckleharley]

8 minutes ago, DrDoctor said:

Hey, Andy,

   Yet another tho’t, albeit not just a random one. What do you think about putting on a late-model front suspension, say from a 1972 Ford, or similar era GM, from the a-arm shafts outward, onto an older Plymouth’s frame??? Sounds simple—just remove the original Plymouth suspension from the pivot shafts on outward, and bolt on the later-model pivot shafts to the Plymouth’s frame, and then assemble the remaining components per Ford/GM protocol. Hmmmm . . . . . . . I think Knuckleharley would say that I’ve got way tooooo much time on my hands. Remember the song of the same name by Styx? Now I’ve got that running thru my mind, in stereo! Warmest regards!!!

Well,it's not something *I* would be interested in doing because the way they drive and ride brings back memories,and if I change that I lose the prime reason they interest me.

 

Having said that,I know a guy that has made a pretty good living from pretty much bolting 49-51 Ford bodies onto 70's Ford Galaxie frames,complete with the engines,transmissions,drive shafts,and rear ends. Look at a 72 Ford and look at a 49 Ford,and you will say "No freaking way will that fit!",but damned if it doesn't with very few modifications. The bonus is all the time he saves on updating suspension,making motor mounts,trans mounts,radiator mounts,etc,etc,etc,and in the end he also has PS and PB. It ain't a 49 Ford anymore,but it sure looks like one.

 

BTW,to put it on-topic,if a 49-51 Ford will easily bolt to these frames,so will a 40-50's Mopar.

 

Not for me,but I can definitely see the advantages for someone that wants to simplify updating a old car.

Edited March 28, 2018 by knuckleharley

[MackTheFinger]

13 hours ago, DrDoctor said:

Hey, Andy,

   Yet another tho’t, albeit not just a random one. What do you think about putting on a late-model front suspension, say from a 1972 Ford, or similar era GM, from the a-arm shafts outward, onto an older Plymouth’s frame??? Sounds simple—just remove the original Plymouth suspension from the pivot shafts on outward, and bolt on the later-model pivot shafts to the Plymouth’s frame, and then assemble the remaining components per Ford/GM protocol. Hmmmm . . . . . . . I think Knuckleharley would say that I’ve got way tooooo much time on my hands. Remember the song of the same name by Styx? Now I’ve got that running thru my mind, in stereo! Warmest regards!!!

 

I read an article a couple of years ago, in Street Rodder IIRC; in which they did pretty much that to a mid-50s Chevy pickup... Adapted GM A-body suspension to the pickup frame rather than going the MII route. Can't remember how they handled the springs, though...

[55 Fargo]

Hey Guys great info, yes Ford and Chevys of the 40s and early 50s era, most likely need all the help they can get in the suspension department.

 

40s and early 50s Mopar well ahead of their time, for the cars, Trucks in all 3 most likely all the same..

 

I'm hoping to hear more on Mopar specific cars and trucks, the HAMB is loaded with info for Ford and Chevys, for those needing info on those brands...

[knuckleharley]

40 minutes ago, 55 Fargo Spitfire said:

Hey Guys great info, yes Ford and Chevys of the 40s and early 50s era, most likely need all the help they can get in the suspension department.

 

40s and early 50s Mopar well ahead of their time, for the cars, Trucks in all 3 most likely all the same..

 

I'm hoping to hear more on Mopar specific cars and trucks, the HAMB is loaded with info for Ford and Chevys, for those needing info on those brands...

Most of the time what has to be done is the same sorts of things,regardless of the brands, The body on chassis cars all pretty much had the same layout.

[DrDoctor]

 . 

Edited May 7, 2018 by DrDoctor

[DrDoctor]

Knuckleharley,

   I can relate to your VAMC trips. I have to make frequent “pilgrimages” to the VAMC just outside of Philly, Penn. As an agent orange victim, you must’ve been in the Army, or the Marines. Being in the Navy, I wasn’t subjected to that. Warmest personal regards to you.

[55 Fargo]

3 hours ago, knuckleharley said:

Most of the time what has to be done is the same sorts of things,regardless of the brands, The body on chassis cars all pretty much had the same layout.

Trucks I agree, the Cars, Ma Mopar IFS light years ahead of Ford or Chebby at least pre 49. Heck Ford in the 40s had a front I beam...

I am in the Opinion that Chevy and Ford have there place, just not here.....LOL

[Wiggo]

20 hours ago, DrDoctor said:

Andy,

   Thank you for the explanation. I’ve read it several times, not because I didn’t understand it, but rather—because I found it very interesting. The comparisons between the U.S. and Australia are fascinating to me.

   Do you know why England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales drive on the left side of the road? It dates back to medieval times when knights rode their horses in jousts. Statistics vary, but approximately 13% of the world’s population is left handed. So, the knights rode on the left so they could use their dominant hand for their sword and/or lances. Australia followed in England’s footsteps, by virtue of being part of the British Common Wealth.

   Winston Churchill popularized a phrase from George Bernard Shaw, when he used this paraphrased variant: "The Americans and the British are one people separated by a common language." So, while you “waffle on abit”, I just “ramble on”. Different, yet the same.

   And, do I remember just going to my favorite junk yard on a Saturday morning, and just wander around looking for “just the right part”. Yeah, again paraphrasing your comment—“those were the days. . .”.

   Warmest regards, my friend.

 

It predates knights in armour by quite some margin, I understand: it goes back to two strangers approaching on foot on a road. You always stayed sword arm to sword arm, just in case. That was the norm the world over until the time of the French Revolution, at which point being identified as an aristocrat was usually very bad for your health. And the sure fire way to spot an aristocrat? They carried a sword. So to avoid even the slightest chance of confusion, people walked, rode and drove on the right to prove they weren't aristocrats.

 

In the late 1700s, traffic in the United States was RHT based on teamsters' use of large freight wagons pulled by several pairs of horses. The wagons had no driver's seat, so the (typically right-handed) postilion held his whip in his right hand and thus sat on the left rear horse. Seated on the left, the driver preferred that other wagons pass him on the left so that he could be sure to keep clear of the wheels of oncoming wagons.

 

 

163 countries worldwide drive on the right, 76 drive on the left. Former French Colonies in Africa tend to drive on the right, former British ones on the left (including Commonwealth countries like India and Australia). Don't know what went wrong with the Canucks...

[55 Fargo]

29 minutes ago, Wiggo said:

 

It predates knights in armour by quite some margin, I understand: it goes back to two strangers approaching on foot on a road. You always stayed sword arm to sword arm, just in case. That was the norm the world over until the time of the French Revolution, at which point being identified as an aristocrat was usually very bad for your health. And the sure fire way to spot an aristocrat? They carried a sword. So to avoid even the slightest chance of confusion, people walked, rode and drove on the right to prove they weren't aristocrats.

 

In the late 1700s, traffic in the United States was RHT based on teamsters' use of large freight wagons pulled by several pairs of horses. The wagons had no driver's seat, so the (typically right-handed) postilion held his whip in his right hand and thus sat on the left rear horse. Seated on the left, the driver preferred that other wagons pass him on the left so that he could be sure to keep clear of the wheels of oncoming wagons.

 

 

163 countries worldwide drive on the right, 76 drive on the left. Former French Colonies in Africa tend to drive on the right, former British ones on the left (including Commonwealth countries like India and Australia). Don't know what went wrong with the Canucks...

Hmmm while interesting History lesson, not sure how this relates to the "Thread Topic"..........LOL

But it would be a great thread topic in "Off Topic.....