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2 engine questions


homer41

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Back again with 2 questions.

 

1. Should timing chains and sprockets be automatically replaced? How do you tell if they need replacing?

 

2. I need water pump 101 which pump should I use? The 53 Plymouth I am rebuilding has the simple type thermostst housing but the engine in my 41 has the type housing that is connected to the water pump?   Does it make a difference which I use?  Dave

Edited by homer41
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How much "play" or slop is in the timing chain, what does your shop manual say?.....ideally replace both chain and gears at the same time...............as for a water pump the actual pumps are the same apart from early rebuildable ones that use a bushed greasable shaft instead of a sealed bearing, also the rebuilable type uses a simple impeller withjust an "ear" or vane on either side whereas the new style bearing pump has a circular impeller with multiple vanes and it would seem an overall better design.............as far as I am aware each style, either the new or older pump has a place at the top of the pump housing body for the external bypass fitting to bolt on that uses a small hose to attach to the front of the older style thermostat housing...........from the sound of it your 53 Plymouth has the INTERNAL bypass with NO external hose going to the water pump so just bolt the water pump on making sure to seal the relevant bolts and attach the external bypass cover plate onto the top of the water pump...........btw do you have a shop manual?........................andyd    

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I have the manual  for the 41 but I ordered one for a 53 which should be here soon. The water pump off of the 53, I do not think it has any bolt holes on top of it, just a solid tube coming out the top to go to the heater.  Dave 

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Andy d has it right.  If you want to look original use the earlier pump and thermostat housing.

Generally the top gear is worn out by the time the chain needs replacing.  The chain, when new is very tight but does not stay that way for long.

It settles into a comfortable posture and lasts for maybe 80 000 miles.  A new chain on a worn gear does not do so well.

If you are examining yours, it will hang loosely on the sprockets when at rest if it is due for replacement.  Chances are it is.   Chains are of two types.

Up to about 1954 they have two rows of teeth on the sprockets.  After that they have one row and are narrower.  It does not matter which one you use so long as the suitable sprockets are used.

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On the subject of the waterpump I would add that the later internal bypass pump has an extra hole in the backing plate that lines up with the hole in the late model block that is the internal bypass.  If you want to use a newer pump in an external bypass motor you need to change the backing plate to the one off of your old pump; if you don't you will have a large water leak.

 

Marty

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Great replys guys, thanks!

 

On the timing gear and sprockets I will replace them!

 

If I understand correctly I can use the same style pump that I took off the 53 but will have to make changes if I go to the old style on the newer engine.

 

Thanks

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The only difference I have seen with the new style pumps is that the impeller is the round improved style and that the rear steel bolt on plate may or may not be included and if it is just make sure that all the holes in the new plate match those on your old plate, if not then just use your old plate, everything else on the ones I've seen is the same but clean  & nice...lol........I wouldn't use an original water pump as a gift unless nothing else was available, but thats just me as I remember well the joy of breaking those mongrel fibre washers more than a couple of times and having to chase up another rebuild kit and then the bastard pump still leaked.......nah, a new style pump is a much better idea..........lol.........andyd    

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Andyd, I really do not know what is going on! Today I looked at both pumps and both blocks, the plymouth block has an extra passage that goes from the water pump up to the head, BUT the head has no port for it and is not totally covered by the head. Does the head gasket cover this hole completely? I would lay a gasket on it and check but they went out with the trash a week ago. The older pump does not have this open port but its gasket has an opening for it.  What gives?  Dave 

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The internal by pass setup on those I've seen has that extra passage you refer to and a slight "bump" on the edge of the head to accommodate a hole drilled into the head at the front edge of the head.........the external by pass has the bolt on small tube on the top of the water pump and a small hose going back onto the front of the thermostat housing..............do you have both blocks & heads apart at the same time?............your 41 Plymouth from your 1st post has the external by pass which I understand to be the correct factory original setup............the 53 Plymouth should have the internal bypass............but as mentioned the actual water pumps are interchangeable so long as the bolt on steel cover plate is the correct one for the relevant setup................which head are you referring to in your post above this, I'd be going thru the garbage just in case the gaskets still there...........lol........andyd     

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Head gaskets are long gone. I do not know why the plymouth block and head don't match. The dodge head has this bump you refer to but not the plymouth. Is there any date Id. on heads? Can you tell by casting numbers? Tomorrow I am going to put the dodge head on the plymouth and see what lines up up. Maybe the dodge is a newer head.   And, yes I have both engines totally torn down. The 201 is still in the car and when I am ready I will switch them.  

 

Talked to a guy at a carb shop today and he said the carter b&b off the 201 would be fine on the 218, is that correct? Sent him an email to see if they flow test them..   Dave

Edited by homer41
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personal experience does not favour the 201 carb on a 218.

 

Use the head with the extra water passage at the front  .

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Good to hear on the carb issue, what did you end up using on your engine. Thanks for your help!   Dave

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Homer, from your post on Bluefoxs thread you seem to have had the block & heads mixed up, main difference between them is the bump on the front of the head and the extra hole in the head there and the corresponding one in the block, they just have to match up.............likewise the head & block without that hole also have to match up.......you mention carby issues also...........if you can't find an original carby what about trying to find one from a 225 Slant six, I'd think it would be fine for a 218/230 engine and maybe being a newer carby easier to source a good one and get a rebuild kit, not sure about the bolt pattern tho'................andyd 

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I believe you are correct, there seems to be a mixed bag of parts on these engines. Tomorrow I will do more investigation to see if I can figure out for sure what I can do. Thanks for your help!   Dave

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Well Andy the results are in, you are correct, the plymouth block has the passage for internal bypass but its head is for external bypass. On the other hand the dodge block is for external bypass and its head is for internal bypass. Don't even ask, I did not get them mixed up, they are painted differently.  This may explain why the Plymouth looked freshly overhauled, I will bet it leaked like a sieve. Thanks for the water pump 101 class, I have learned a lot about these engines and hope to learn much more. I got a real education restoring my 2 chevy pickups and I am now in a different classroom.  Thanks so much!  

 

My plan now is to use the Plymouth block with the dodge head with internal bypass waterpump.  Dave

Edited by homer41
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