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sourcing parts for industrial flattie


oldsid

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recently signed up but still waiting to start the rebuild on our newly found 41 dodge coupe. retiring in a few months so looking forward to what little spare time I'll have after the Mrs hands me the list(s)...  In the mean time were trying to save an old muskeg tractor with a late 50's chrsyler industrial 251 flathead in it. 

Being a cousin to the engines here I though Id see if anyone has any ideas. Im looking for the oil pump to camshaft gear. Have checked what I could here and online but I can find only replacement pumps. Does anybody know of a supplier for engine internals? or is the gear even available?  The engines going to get a teardown down the road but Id like to keep her running. Going to need a good supplier for both the 218 and 251, but the industrial seems to be harder to source. and apologies if this is in the wrong location, forum world still alittle new... Thanks

 

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OldSid,

Yes. The Industrials tend to be a tad tougher to find parts for. Vintage Power Wagons is a good source. On ebay under "Chrysler Industrial 251" is another.

My buddy has one in his 1947 Windsor, and the parts are tend to be a little pricier than standard 251 engines. I guess if not all, most all got worn out along the way.

Tom

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Why would an Industrial 251 be any different than a 251 in a DeSoto car, or Dodge Truck? The basic engine should be the same, except for any installation specific items.

I doubt you'd be able to find an oil pump gear. By the time you track one down and spend the time swapping it onto your pump you could have installed a new replacement pump with a new gear

 

Merle

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5 minutes ago, Merle Coggins said:

Why would an Industrial 251 be any different than a 251 in a DeSoto car, or Dodge Truck? The basic engine should be the same, except for any installation specific items.

I doubt you'd be able to find an oil pump gear. By the time you track one down and spend the time swapping it onto your pump you could have installed a new replacement pump with a new gear

 

Merle

I'm not certain how much is different with the Chrysler engines,but most industrial engines have a lower lift cam,smaller valves,and less compression. The carbs are also usually different/smaller because the engines are usually ran for long periods of time at a steady low RPM.

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1 hour ago, knuckleharley said:

I'm not certain how much is different with the Chrysler engines,but most industrial engines have a lower lift cam,smaller valves,and less compression. The carbs are also usually different/smaller because the engines are usually ran for long periods of time at a steady low RPM.

Less cam.lift. mine is .379 its duration.might be shorter.

Smaller valves thats not in mine.

Lower compression why?

Its 7 to 1 but if comparing to the  late 50s engines for cars and the powerwagons engines in 60s well the yes.

I see nothing too different between my 265 IND and 250s ive had.

But interesting comments and maybe the USA industrial engines are as you described depending on applications.

Edited by 55 Fargo Spitfire
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21 minutes ago, 55 Fargo Spitfire said:

Less cam.lift. mine is .379 its duration.might be shorter.

Smaller valves thats BS mine are not.

Lower compression why?

Its 7 to 1 but if comparing to the  late 50s engines for cars and the powerwagons engines in 60s well the yes.

I see nothing too different between my 265 IND and 250s ive had.

But interesting comments and maybe the USA industrial engines are as you described depending on applications.

he was talking industrial engines in general not mopar or flathead specific.

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36 minutes ago, 55 Fargo Spitfire said:

Less cam.lift. mine is .379 its duration.might be shorter.

Smaller valves thats BS mine are not.

Lower compression why?

Its 7 to 1 but if comparing to the  late 50s engines for cars and the powerwagons engines in 60s well the yes.

I see nothing too different between my 265 IND and 250s ive had.

But interesting comments and maybe the USA industrial engines are as you described depending on applications.

Just because the valves in your engine aren't smaller,that doesn't mean it's true for all industrial engines. It depends on the manufacturer and the application.

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31 minutes ago, knuckleharley said:

Just because the valves in your engine aren't smaller,that doesn't mean it's true for all industrial engines. It depends on the manufacturer and the application.

Well sure I get that.

Thats why I posted specs possible to applications.

No biggie.

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Oldsid........I was using a 230 industrial engine from an airport tug to rebuild & install in the 41 Plymouth coupe I had.........I bought a new oil pump listed for a 230 car engine and it was identical to the one on the industrial engine, same length, bolt holes, gear, etc.identical but new..............I would be 99.9999% certain that the car and industrial 25" long engine of all capacities would be the same oil pump.................I just checked my Andy Bernbaum catalog and it lists the SAME oil pump for Dodge & Plymouth 1935-1959 and DeSoto & Chrysler 1937-1954..............this covers BOTH the 23" and 25" engines so I'd be getting a car pump and use that..............BTW I wouldn't bother trying to find a pump gear, get a new pump and be done with it..........regards, andyd   

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I can remove an oil pump gear and send it to you .  so far as I know the oil pumps will all interchange, so the gears must be the same.

Why not just replace the whole pump as suggested above.

 

If you want just the gear, send me a  personal message through the forum.

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Thanks for the input guys. certainly didnt intent on getting everyone throwing parts at each other!!!

I certainly would agree on just throwing a new pump in and be done with it, but as usual more to the story. Not being a Dodge or Plymouth or anything even related I didnt want to go too far with this but I do appreciate all the help. And I'll certainly need more when the coupes turn comes.

Many years millwrighting and came across alot of stationary  engines like this ,but alot of different applications.  I too think many parts would interchange with the automotive 251 for example, just didnt know what ones or if they were common in automotive circles at all. Havent been able to find specs to compare. The internals are suspect in this and Im unable to remove engine or inspect properly right now due to the application. Complete rebuild planned but not yet!  So leary on throwing a new pump in only to have her spit it back out. But I'll see what I can find. Got some feelers out to Vintage Power Wagons and Bernbaums, gear if I can find it, pump if not.  if I learn any more on the industrials I'll be sure to pass it along. Thanks again for all the help. 

 

 

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Didnt want to post a pic off the bat as this beast isnt even closely related! except for the 251. The closest she would have come would have been draggin the ice fishing car (from a recent post)back off the ice! But since you asked, heres a couple,  barely able to burn a hole behind the track into the engine tunnel and fish the oil pump out.

But big thanks to dpollo, he had a gear and sent it my way in the mail. Got it today, in this afternoon and she fired up and got her out of the barn! So no catastrophic cam gear damage which I was fearing, she'll last till the rebuild with minimal running... I hope. They re alot easier to move around under power than push pull and drag :). So thanks for everyones input. 

After I had already made arrangements, I did get an email from Bernbaums saying they had the gear in stock. And it appears that there is alot of crossover of parts between industrial and auto 251.

Anyway this old girl just helps around the farm and was awaiting a full restore when I found the 41 coupe. Now the J5 just got pushed back down the list further as Im really looking forward to getting started on the coupe this spring. 

Thanks to everyone

j5 small 2.jpg

j5 small 3.jpg

j5 small1.jpg

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15 minutes ago, oldsid said:

Didnt want to post a pic off the bat as this beast isnt even closely related! except for the 251. The closest she would have come would have been draggin the ice fishing car (from a recent post)back off the ice! But since you asked, heres a couple,  barely able to burn a hole behind the track into the engine tunnel and fish the oil pump out.

But big thanks to dpollo, he had a gear and sent it my way in the mail. Got it today, in this afternoon and she fired up and got her out of the barn! So no catastrophic cam gear damage which I was fearing, she'll last till the rebuild with minimal running... I hope. They re alot easier to move around under power than push pull and drag :). So thanks for everyones input. 

After I had already made arrangements, I did get an email from Bernbaums saying they had the gear in stock. And it appears that there is alot of crossover of parts between industrial and auto 251.

Anyway this old girl just helps around the farm and was awaiting a full restore when I found the 41 coupe. Now the J5 just got pushed back down the list further as Im really looking forward to getting started on the coupe this spring. 

Thanks to everyone

j5 small 2.jpg

j5 small 3.jpg

j5 small1.jpg

I could use something like that to pull a mower through the tall marsh grass around my house. Just bought a 4x4 ATV yesterday and hoping it will do the job. If it won't,I just made an expensive mistake.

 

BTW,what purpose was that originally made to accomplish,who made it,what was it called,and when was it in production?  What transmission does it use? Any ideas?

Also,I am VERY interested in learning how you managed to burn a hole in the side without setting the old oil on fire. Don't ask me how I know a torch and old oil is a bad combination.

 

And "Yes,I do consider this to be Mopar related."

Edited by knuckleharley
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59 minutes ago, oldsid said:

Didnt want to post a pic off the bat as this beast isnt even closely related! except for the 251. The closest she would have come would have been draggin the ice fishing car (from a recent post)back off the ice! But since you asked, heres a couple,  barely able to burn a hole behind the track into the engine tunnel and fish the oil pump out.

But big thanks to dpollo, he had a gear and sent it my way in the mail. Got it today, in this afternoon and she fired up and got her out of the barn! So no catastrophic cam gear damage which I was fearing, she'll last till the rebuild with minimal running... I hope. They re alot easier to move around under power than push pull and drag :). So thanks for everyones input. 

After I had already made arrangements, I did get an email from Bernbaums saying they had the gear in stock. And it appears that there is alot of crossover of parts between industrial and auto 251.

Anyway this old girl just helps around the farm and was awaiting a full restore when I found the 41 coupe. Now the J5 just got pushed back down the list further as Im really looking forward to getting started on the coupe this spring. 

Thanks to everyone

j5 small 2.jpg

j5 small 3.jpg

j5 small1.jpg

OMG!  That thing is awesome.....  I will keep an eye out for one when I get my current projects completed.  That track vehicle is so cool....

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O/k...........I'll ask the dumb question........whats a muskeg tractor.....and don't say..look at the pic.............lol......I've never seen anything like that tracked thing...........and ice fishing?...............how do you fillet the ice?...................lol................o/k......have found my meds and corner and will go sit there now..........but whats a muskeg anyway.........lol...............andyd

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Well to start with the easy stuff, it’s made by Bombardier in Quebec Canada. Unsure of age, but made about late 50’s. Called a J5 and built for use in the forestry business in the remote bush, hauling logs. Lots around over the years, ended up just about everywhere except apparently in Oz… This early model has a 3 speed manual trans, basically an automotive setup ie small driveshaft to diff with a wet brake on each side. Ive been told actually dodge components but I cant confirm. I found it in Northern Ontario and dragged it out of an old hunt camp. They were also built for plowing snow with a cab or single covered cockpit(which mine is missing). They were also used a lot in the bush before ATV days.

 

Yes I did not light her on fire burning the hole…yet. Decided to pick up a cheap offshore plasma cutter to tackle the 41 coupe project. Worked great to get the oil pump out, just slide a plate down inside. Probably also helped that everything is still bloody frozen here.

 

And Andy, if your ever here in the Great White North, let me know and I’ll introduce you to ice fishing. Ice fishing licences come in a big cardboard box with 24 brown bottles inside. The more licences you have, the bigger fish you can catch. And we usually fillet them with a chainsaw.

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