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P15 door hinge repair progress


3046moparcoupe

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This is Dodge, but only full parts book I have on hand.   Depending on hinge location and car body there are three different sizes used on the D24 per my book....they are 1/4, 9/32 and 5/16 dia .   Rear hinge lower was 9/32   on the 4 door sedan/7 pass/limo  with the upper hinge pin 5/16 and the town sedan got 5/16 pins on the rear upper and lower, all front doors on the D24 fronts were 1/4 upper and lower....

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1 hour ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

This is Dodge, but only full parts book I have on hand.   Depending on hinge location and car body there are three different sizes used on the D24 per my book....they are 1/4, 9/32 and 5/16 dia .   Rear hinge lower was 9/32   on the 4 door sedan/7 pass/limo  with the upper hinge pin 5/16 and the town sedan got 5/16 pins on the rear upper and lower, all front doors on the D24 fronts were 1/4 upper and lower....

 

Thanks for that information.  It does seem odd to me that the rear hinge pins are larger diameter, because the rear doors (at least on the Plymouths) are considerably smaller (and lighter) than the front doors - and the two door model doors would be even longer & heavier than they are on a 4 door like mine.  

 

The Plymouth manuals I have don't show the pin descriptions, only part numbers.  In fact, only the 1936 thru 1949 Plymouth Master Parts List manual even shows the pins as separate items.  It shows only two different part numbers for the hinge pins - # 892252 for the front pins, and the upper rear.  The rear hinges on the P15 are exposed hinges, and not removable from the door.  (I have not removed either of those pins.)  The part number for those pins is given as 488550.  But the difference could also be in length.  (This info is on pages 354-355 in that manual.)

 

Do these numbers by any chance correspond with what you have for the Dodge?

 

Thanks much!

 

 

Edited by Eneto-55
add line spacing for clarity.
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3 hours ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

the 892252is 5/16 x 2 and 7/32

 

the 488550 is 9/32 x 2 and 5/8

 

 

 

Thank you very much.  That is exactly what I needed to know.  What Dodge parts book is that from?

 

Edited: I see that I didn't say what I intended to say regarding the rear P15 hinges - I meant to say that the LOWER rear hinges are external, and are not removable from the door.  The upper ones can be removed, just like the front door hinges.  It is these lower rear hinge pins that I have not removed.  And while I hadn't measured them, I would say that they do appear to be longer, as your information confirms.

Edited by Eneto-55
Add note regarding my post of 12-05-18.
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The books was as stated first off, sister car to the P15, the D24 Dodge

 

Now as to service the pin on the lower rea hinge,, notice there is a replacement part application which alluded to repair.  Granted, with the running board style rocker and with the lower trim either on or off the car you will not be able to get a direct nor straight hit on the pin for removal.  Further, the strap hinge at the top being riveted to the door also complicates a few things.  You are going to have to service the hinge with the door removed from the vehicle including removing the fixing rivet on the door check.  If you are going this deep in repairs...removal of the door is in my opinion a must anyway so address the pin while you also address the C-post and the area where it melds with the floor and threshold of the door opening.  

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Fortunately, being an Oklahoma car (originally sold there late 1946), and in storage there since 1980, it is very solid. (I'm a displaced Okie living in Ohio.)  The doors are also still off from when I dismantled it back then.  I didn't remove the rivets in the door check, as I removed the (cotter pin?) that held the other end, inside the door.   So yeah, like you say, now is the time to do all of this.  (Back when I got it I didn't intend to do all of this sort of thing, because I was just trying to build a nice daily driver.  Now it's more of a full re-build, and it won't be a winter driver for sure. Not here in Ohio, anyway.)

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  • 4 weeks later...

Following some conversations with both 3046MoparCoupe & Plymouthy Adams, Here is a summary of some conclusions, and where I'm at so far:
The original pin diameter for the hinges in the front doors, and the top hinges on the rear doors, was apparently 5/16”, and the lower rear door hinge pins were a hair smaller, at 9/32”.
The 6 hinges on my car that should have had 5/16” OD pins had 11/32” OD pins, and from the looks of the bore in the hinge tongues, they had been drilled out oversize.  

Plans:
I’ve purchased oilite bushings (sintered bronze) to bush the hinge tongues back to original specs.  (5/16” ID, 7/16” OD x 1 3/8”).  
Drill out to 27/64”, then ream to 7/16” nominal w/ a hand reamer (actual ID is supposed to end up at 0.001” under 7/16”.  The bushing OD is 0.001 OVER the nominal size as listed, leaving 0.0002 for the press fit.)
Made a tool to press in the bushings that has a nylon bushing that will go in first, to get the bushing started in straight.

Now today I got a chance to put some time in this, which I've been anxious to do since the reamer came a couple of days ago.

Here is a before & after picture, contrasting the one I had drilled & reamed with one of the others.

(I'll show the 'tool' I made in the next post.)

HPIM1001-small.JPG

HPIM1006-small.JPG

Edited by Eneto-55
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My first idea for the tool to press the bushing into the hinge tongue was made out of a water faucet valve stem, but then I decided that it would be better to have a section that would assure that the bushing was going in straight.  (I did use a press, but it went in easily enough that I think it could be driven in with a mallet w/o damaging it.)

The top is the nylon gear (out of an old printer I scrapped - I see potential in pretty much everything, and it was good, because the hardware had no nylon bushings with an ID of 5/16".) I 'turned down' by chucking it up on the bolt, in my drill, and working it over with a file.  I did the faucet valve stem the same way.

Then below is the first attempt, the one made from the faucet part.  (Showing the finished one, and an un-modified faucet stem.)

HPIM1002-small.JPG

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5 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

good deal, I like the fact you have decided to correct this in a manner that will long survive the normal use it will see in the future......While time consuming I know, a few special tools needed...it shows that if you are dedicated, you will be successful.....

Thanks.  I can indeed get carried away, but now I figure this should go another 70 years....

 

The remaining problem is how to shrink the holes in the hinge frame itself.  The only thing that I've thought of so far is to try to shrink it by pinging around the shoulder, where the metal was pushed out of the hole when it was originally punched.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I haven't made any actual progress on this project over the last 3 weeks, just a lot of searching for the right part to rebuild the hinge frame where the hinge pin passes through.  I've looked at drill guides & the such like, but that may be too hard of steel for the pins to be driven in (where the serrations are).  Also, they are too long, and so if they would still have to be machined, then why not start from scratch?  Then I had the idea that if I have to drill & ream the ID to size anyway, I might as well use nuts.  I have an old armature lathe, and thought that I could rig up a deal where I could cut a recess into 1/8 of the height of the nut, so that it would fit into the hinge frame hole (after it was drilled out to the determined size).  But the armature lathe cutter does not extend out far enough to do this.  (I suspect that making an extra long cutter would allow for too much strain there.)  So now I'm trying to think if I can mount that attachment from the armature lathe onto my drill press somehow. 

 

[After the discussion died down here, I started a thread about this on a Rat Rod site, where I did get more input.  http://ratrodsrule.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37464]

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Failed attempt to set up a make-shift lathe with a 1/2" drill and the old armature lathe I got from my Grandpa years ago.  The drill is not mounted firmly enough, so it just gets pushed around.

 

HPIM1010-small.JPG

HPIM1013-small.JPG

Edited by Eneto-55
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  • 3 months later...

I've been busy with work and home renovations, so haven't made much progress on this project.  (If you all saw my thread on metal lathes, you'll know that I had one spotted at a local auction, but didn't go high enough to get it.  That I needed to make the parts to repair the hinge frames, get the hinge pin holes back down to correct size.)

I finally got all other screws loosened on the last hinge (lower driver's door).  I have the fenders off still, so I was able to spray penetrant in through the fender mounting hole to get at the back side of the lower screw.  I have the type of impact tool that you hit w/ a hammer, but it didn't work for this.  Also have a "Jacobs Torq Mate" that I picked up in a $5.00 bag sale at the local hardware.  It is supposed to convert a standard drill (w/ reverse, of course) into an impact.  That little deal actually did the job, frankly, I was surprised.  So yeah, the hinge pin on this one is also twisted off, same place.  I'll drill it out if I have to, but what about welding a nut onto the bottom end of the pin, and using the impact on that?  Anyone think that might work?  (If I have to drill it out, I'd rather not have that nut welded on, so not sure if I want to try it.)

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After soaking it for several days, and still not able to get the rusted in & broken off hinge pin out (in the press), I drilled it out, same as the other 3 that were twisted off.  The problem now is that this particular hinge tongue has a rather thin wall in one area, only around 3/32" thick in that area.  The hole is currently around 11/32, and my bushings are 7/16 OD.  That means that in the thin wall area, it will only be around 3/64" thick.  I'm wondering if that is going to be strong enough, or if I should get it built up in that area a bit at a welding shop before I drill & ream it to 7/16".  (I don't feel confident enough in my welding abilities for something like this.)  I think I had done some research about wall thickness requirements, but I don't recall the details now, and I was also not too sure I figured it all correctly, because it involves figuring the weight load, and I don't feel confident I know how to do that accurately.  (I didn't think to look at exactly where the thin area is, in terms of the stress put on it by the weight load of the door, because this is the lower hinge, so it may be pushing away from the thin wall area.)
If I get it welded up, would you all recommend just welding on it, or welding on a strip of steel in that area.  (It can all be pretty thick there w/o interfering with the hinge frame.  In fact, one Idea I had thought of before was to cut that end completely off, and weld on steel bushings of a larger diameter.  I would have to build a jig, in order to be sure & get everything back in the same location.)  

Or I look for a replacement hinge tongue.  The lower left IS the same shape as the lower right - it would just require redrilling the three holes where the door mounts to the hinge tongue - they are opposite.

 

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  • 2 years later...

Im trying to change a passenger side door on a 51 desoto custom 4 dr...I have everything loose and cant figure out how to remove the metal slide that only allows the door to pen so far...  I see a pin on the out side that dont seem to come loose and inside the door it has a piece of rubber that slides on a piece of metal  have you removed these before?

 

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15 minutes ago, Jerry T said:

I'm trying to change a passenger side door on a 51 desoto custom 4 dr...I have everything loose and cant figure out how to remove the metal slide that only allows the door to open so far...  I see a pin on the out side that don't seem to come loose and inside the door it has a piece of rubber that slides on a piece of metal  have you removed these before?

 

Some people, most, perhaps, drill out the rivet that you mention on the outside.  I had already removed the door panels, glass, window roller mechanism, etc., so I removed the pin on the inside of the door.  I don't remember for sure now, as that was over 40 years ago, but I doubt I had to drill anything out on the inside of the door.  I'm thinking there was either a cotter pin, or some other type of pin there.  (My project stalled after 1982, so the car is still not reassembled.  It is now a retirement project, I guess.)

Edited by Eneto-55
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