Jump to content
Wiggo

1941 Plodge Kingsway

Recommended Posts

Hi everyone. I'm a newbie, so apologise in advance for asking dumb questions. I've searched through the archives and found some real nuggets that will help me, but I still have some questions...

 

So I now own a 1941 Dodge Kingsway 4 door sedan, which I understand to have been built in Windsor, Ontario as a Plymouth P11 (or P11D) and given some Dodge trim and badges. The car has had some extensive restoration work done, but needs more. As you can see, it has had the seams between the fenders and body welded up, the trunk modified, running boards reshaped and a few other mods, but the interior is more of a challenge.

So, the dash is pretty original, but someone took a saw to the aluminium panel under the radio, which I am guessing will be impossible to find, but the rest of the dash is not in too bad shape. The seats have been replaced with modern seats and a matching modern bench in the back, and I'd like to go back to something closer to stock, if I can. Any suggestions? The rear is 51" wide and the seat base about 17-18" deep, front to back. In the front, there is just under 54" between the B pillars. As I'm in the UK, the choice of donor vehicles to get a front bench seat from is somewhat limited, and the chances of finding something in a breaker's yard is slim, so if anyone has any suggestions as to what may fit and may be found online, I'd be really grateful.

The photo of the firewall seems to me to show where maybe the original VIN plate lived, but can someone confirm? It has the VIN on a plate in the front passenger side door jamb, as well, which is correct for a 41 from Canada.

The grille is a cast pot-metal one, which I understand to be period correct, but in pretty poor shape, as you can see. It also has a Luxury Liner badge, though as I understand the grilles were not interchangeable, I assume that this was not original and is wrong for the vehicle.

Oh, and someone junked the flathead 6 in 1987 and put in a small block Chevy, with a steering column from God knows what. It'd be nice to go lose the hideous center console and go back to a column change with the parking brake under the dash. Any ideas where to start on that one?

Dodge.jpg

DodgeDash1.jpg

DodgeDash2.jpg

DodgeFirewall.jpg

DodgeGrille.jpg

DodgeManual.jpg

DodgeRear.jpg

DodgeWing.jpg

Edited by Wiggo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

where to start...drive this car whuile you find another to build in the manner you really want...going backwards in a build such as this is just on the average very hard and costly to effect.  The grille is cast, they resemble the US model true Dodge but that is where it ends.   The casting does suffer pitting.  You can still find these grilles offered for sale now and then NOS.  The column looks to be the rod industry way overdone IDIDIT.  As for the powerplant installed...another way over done feature of many builds but based on the short snout of the engine compared to Mopar and Ford is the single main reason these are popular...Seats, you may be lost there but you will need to measure a suitable sized European sedan for possible retrofitting.  Anything offered up in the rod industry in seats for these older cars are so stupidly designed they border on ridiculous in looks and about any production car seat will look more at home.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The center dash chrome insert is from a US P-15 (1946 to early 1949 Plymouth),and easy to find on US Ebay as well as other places.

The steering column is no real problem. Replace it with pretty much anything you find at a local scrap yard where you live that has column shift with a cable. You should have no trouble selling yours to someone local who is building a hot rod.

I have a P-15 rear seat I would give  you,but given what it would cost to ship it to you,you would be better off finding a really nice one with upholstery you like and buying it.

Given the welded on fenders,Chevrolet engine and trans,and the other custom body mods,Plymouthy Adams advise to you is the way to go. Sell the car to someone that wants a custom/hot rod,and then use that money to buy what you really want. It will be a lot quicker,make you a lot happier,and chances are it will also be cheaper.

Check with the UK guys registered to this site for connections there,and tell them you want to sell your car and buy one more original. If there is one for sale in the UK,they WILL know about it. Chances are they may even know someone interested in buying your car.

Life can be hard,so why not make it as easy as you can on  yourself?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, knuckleharley said:

The center dash chrome insert is from a US P-15 (1946 to early 1949 Plymouth),and easy to find on US Ebay as well as other places.

The steering column is no real problem. Replace it with pretty much anything you find at a local scrap yard where you live that has column shift with a cable. You should have no trouble selling yours to someone local who is building a hot rod.

I have a P-15 rear seat I would give  you,but given what it would cost to ship it to you,you would be better off finding a really nice one with upholstery you like and buying it.

Given the welded on fenders,Chevrolet engine and trans,and the other custom body mods,Plymouthy Adams advise to you is the way to go. Sell the car to someone that wants a custom/hot rod,and then use that money to buy what you really want. It will be a lot quicker,make you a lot happier,and chances are it will also be cheaper.

Check with the UK guys registered to this site for connections there,and tell them you want to sell your car and buy one more original. If there is one for sale in the UK,they WILL know about it. Chances are they may even know someone interested in buying your car.

Life can be hard,so why not make it as easy as you can on  yourself?

 

Actually, I'm quite happy with the car. I don't plan to return it to stock because I am well aware of how much work that would entail, but I do want to get rid of the obviously ugly bits like the seats and center console and try to tidy the dash a little. Does anyone have a photo of what the original center section of the dash would have looked like?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Wiggo said:

Actually, I'm quite happy with the car. I don't plan to return it to stock because I am well aware of how much work that would entail, but I do want to get rid of the obviously ugly bits like the seats and center console and try to tidy the dash a little. Does anyone have a photo of what the original center section of the dash would have looked like?

I'm having trouble uploading the image for some reason,and can't figure out how to delete my quote to you without including text.

 

Sorry.

 

Edited by knuckleharley

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Wiggo said:

Actually, I'm quite happy with the car. I don't plan to return it to stock because I am well aware of how much work that would entail, but I do want to get rid of the obviously ugly bits like the seats and center console and try to tidy the dash a little. Does anyone have a photo of what the original center section of the dash would have looked like?

This is my P15's dash but I think it's the same. I like your car!! Everyone has different tastes and I'm getting a little lazy, I'm not sure I'd change much. Looks like a nice drivable car as is.

Dash.jpg

Edited by MackTheFinger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it seems that when someone agrees with the negative assessment you yourself made...all of a sudden it is not as bad as it seems...lol......tweak it as you go....you got only to please yourself with the car....but  walk through a breakers yard with notepad and tape measure will do wonders for your creative side...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

it seems that when someone agrees with the negative assessment you yourself made...all of a sudden it is not as bad as it seems...lol......tweak it as you go....you got only to please yourself with the car....but  walk through a breakers yard with notepad and tape measure will do wonders for your creative side...

C'mon, the first response was basically 'drive it for as long as it takes you to get rid of it'! I'm well aware it will never please the rivet counters, but I don't intend to try.

The challenge I have over here is there is nothing in the breakers that will be any use. There hasn't been a car sold in Europe with a bench seat or a column change for probably 50 years. I can happily tackle re-upholstering a seat, but I need a frame and springs as a starting point. 

I know I can probably modify a parking brake from a 1980's or 90's Mercedes, and someone has suggested VW vans as a source of bench seats. Lokar do a universal cable shifter and if I had to, I'm sure I could fabricate my own lever and mechanism to attach to the column, but I'm trying not to reinvent the wheel here, hence asking for suggestions...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

back to the breaking yard.....it does not have to be a sedan for that matter, a lorry could well supply a front seat and to that end the notepad and tape measure will be very handy in what may or may not be suitable.  Some vans can offer a bench but the task of cutting the frame and mounting on a set of adjusters....The great UK auto jumble could be a good source of parts also come fall.  When it comes to what may and may not work based on what may or may not be available,,,the breaking yard I feel is still you best starting point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a NORS  (new old replacement stock)  grill for the 41 Dodge which is cast aluminum.  It will polish up nicely but is, at present, "shelf worn"   I believe it is for the Canadian car which is built on the Plymouth body.  It is two pieces, right and left, and  has 14 bars , It curves smoothly from the headlight to the bottom   Your car has Luxury Liner  in the grille insert and while the park lights are at the top, (Plymouth style) the grille looks like the one from the bigger car.   

The Luxury liner was also built in Canada  but with the same body as the US Dodge.   A distinguishing feature of the US Dodge is the placement of the park lights beside the headlight rather tan above.    More research is needed before I offer this grille for sale.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yes, his front parking lights appear to be 100% 1941 Plymouth in bezel and glass...as for the grille, I bought a NOS one and the man sent a Plodge model...no way in sam it would come close to fitting the US Dodge...I cannot recall if the Luxury Liner mount holes were cast on the Plodge...but am thinking it did not.  The headlight bezels in body color also takes a bit from the distinction of the grille as a whole making it look a bit strange and out of place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Kingsway/Dodge/Plodge thing is a real mess. The badge on the dash in pic 2 above says Dodge Kingsway as does the title document, and the VIN indicates it was a Canadian built Plymouth P11, so that could very possibly have rolled out the door as a Dodge Kingsway. The 'Dodge' and 'Luxury Liner' badges are separate from the grille, I believe, so it may just be the wrong badge stuck in there. The dash is certainly a Plymouth one and not the Dodge Luxury Liner dash.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree, the dash center is a composite of what they PO could get his hands on..the fit of the panel to the trim is a clear indication....in time you can find these pieces....For now though, it is a figure out what you need and correct it as you find the right parts.....very few folks are really going to be able to tell you exactly what is what

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

yes, his front parking lights appear to be 100% 1941 Plymouth in bezel and glass...as for the grille, I bought a NOS one and the man sent a Plodge model...no way in sam it would come close to fitting the US Dodge...I cannot recall if the Luxury Liner mount holes were cast on the Plodge...but am thinking it did not.  The headlight bezels in body color also takes a bit from the distinction of the grille as a whole making it look a bit strange and out of place.

Now, you say that about the parking lights, but from what I read somewhere in '41 Dodge switched from the side mounted ones to the top mounts I have (or the other way around) as a result of legislation in some states.

My understanding of the history of this was that Plymouth always got the previous model year Dodge, so when Dodge released the Luxury Liner in 1939, Plymouth didn't get the new shape until 1940 (lowered roofline, 117" wheelbase, loss of the trunk 'hump' etc). Dodge then went to the D14 in 1940 when the wheelbase was again stretched to 119.5", and to the D19 in 1941 (little different to the D14 apart from safety rims and the option of Fluid drive). 

My 1941 Shop Manual covers the Dodge D19, 20 and 21, and the Plymouth P11 and P12, so the assumption is that the P11 is the same vehicle as the D19, so I struggle to understand why the '41 grilles wouldn't interchange. Certainly the '40 Dodge and '40 Plymouths wouldn't as the Dodge was 2 1/2" longer...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

on the trim, you got to keep in mind that this car is built on the Plymouth chassis and basic body, while they try to follow the US Dodge in looks it is not always possible due to cost of tooling for trim etc...the grille is by far the largest single item that screams Dodge thus the attention to this over that of the headlight and parking light bezel combo.  This has proven itself over the course of all models of PLODGE....even the later D24 Dodge and the D25 Plodge, the grille was similar but the US was stainless and the Plodge was cast aluminum.   It is not a left over series of parts carried to another model except to say that when Dodge got the larger engine, Plymouth would move up to the discarded Dodge CID.  There is no assumption, the D19 by the way is full size Dodge and is larger than the sister Plymouth...I have two D19's here at the house...the butterfly theme that is so D19 makes it a very unique and stylish vehicle all around in front and rear bumpers, gravel pans and the hood verse the alligator hood of the Plymouth.  The 41 Plymouth US version also in my opinion the best looking grille trim bar none of the 40's Plymouth.  Back in the day from articles I have read, it was all about taxable HP on registration of export cars....so the lower HP Plymouth with Dodge trim filled that particular niche.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Badge engineering and marketing is what it is all about !    I have access to a 41 Plymouth frontal ensemble.  grill has been disassembled.   If my NORS grill fits over the Plymouth sheet metal then it will confirm what it actually is.   It is a NICE piece(s)  but the market is pretty narrow.

I think Wiggo's car  has potential and there would be no harm in modifying it to suit his tastes.   a Hodge Podge Plodge Dodge  to be sure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, dpollo said:

Badge engineering and marketing is what it is all about !    I have access to a 41 Plymouth frontal ensemble.  grill has been disassembled.   If my NORS grill fits over the Plymouth sheet metal then it will confirm what it actually is.   It is a NICE piece(s)  but the market is pretty narrow.

I think Wiggo's car  has potential and there would be no harm in modifying it to suit his tastes.   a Hodge Podge Plodge Dodge  to be sure.

all cars have potential, his is a bit higher up on the food chain...as it is a running driving car that he can enjoy as he tweaks it...best part is, nothing in stone says this needs be completed overnight either...the build is a larger part of the joying of ownership, at least to some folks...but I do respect his wishes to identify what is what and trying to find his way home so to speak with the correct appearance...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hodge Plodge sums it up perfectly! This is an export only rarity, where I suspect no-one is 100% sure of what was done 76 years ago. It was butchered over 30 years ago when it lost the straight 6 and whatever tranny it shipped with. Now it is in the UK where I have a whole new set of rules I have to comply with to keep it on the road. The best I can hope to do is preserve the spirit of 1941: the big band sound, petrol coupons, ration books, zoot suits...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You may be interested to learn that KINGSWAY was the low-line model in Canada.  El Cheapo.  

In export markets  KINGSWAY was applied to upscale models.     The domestic  business coupes here in Canada were badged  Kingsway through 1952.   I have an export model 52 Convertible Dodge (D40) which would be a REGENT  if made in Canada  but it was  made in Detroit for export and badged KINGSWAY.  How it got to western Canada is another story.  BTW If you want more info about the new old replacement grille send me a PM .This part of the forum is not for buying and selling.

Edited by dpollo
clarity

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wiggo............welcome aboard............as far as mother mopars mix 'n match ideas my oz assembled 1940 Dodge uses 1940 Dodge grille, moldings, dash and badges on 1940 Plymouth fenders, hood, head& tailights, chassis and Oz similar but different body shell......have attached a couple of pics of my cars seats & interior, whilst the seats are Leyland P76 with a late 60's Valaint console it may give you some ideas.....I'd look at Mercedes for a seat that may fit a little better...........the suggestions given buy the guys are just that but the main thing is to do whatever you feel comfortable with............I've had my car since 1971, its been rodded since 1973 and whilst it doesn't suit everyone it suits me and thats all we should worry about.......anyway welcome aboard...........Andy Douglas     

P1000673.JPG

IMG_1539.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So this gets interesting. Having checked in the shop manual, we find the following for 1941...

 

wheelbases.JPG

So that tells me my car was built in Ontario as a Dodge D20, with the same 117" wheelbase as the 1939 Dodge D11.

Edited by Wiggo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Andydodge said:

Wiggo............welcome aboard............as far as mother mopars mix 'n match ideas my oz assembled 1940 Dodge uses 1940 Dodge grille, moldings, dash and badges on 1940 Plymouth fenders, hood, head& tailights, chassis and Oz similar but different body shell......have attached a couple of pics of my cars seats & interior, whilst the seats are Leyland P76 with a late 60's Valaint console it may give you some ideas.....I'd look at Mercedes for a seat that may fit a little better...........the suggestions given buy the guys are just that but the main thing is to do whatever you feel comfortable with............I've had my car since 1971, its been rodded since 1973 and whilst it doesn't suit everyone it suits me and thats all we should worry about.......anyway welcome aboard...........Andy Douglas     

P1000673.JPG

IMG_1539.JPG

Nice car, Andy. Sadly, the Leyland P76 is as rare over here as 1941 Dodge Kingsways. But I will keep looking...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you will find that your car does not have an butterfly hood as does a full bodies long wheelbase Dodge of the years 39, 40 and 41...so it yet is based on the Plymouth body with the alligator hood as is specific to the 117 wheelbase car.... a rebadged Plymouth no matter if built in Detroit or Windsor...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FWIW here is a photo of the front of my '41 Dodge D20 Kingsway Special manufactured in Windsor, Ontario, Canada. Note that the grilles have more horizontal bars than the US version and the two are not interchangeable. I have also attached a photo of my dash, which is identical to the '41 Plymouth dash. Hope this helps.

Phil

41_Front_IMG_1554_r01.JPG.436c8bd782fce449bcaa6d4a6ed40659.JPG

41_Dash_IMG_1563_r01.jpg.ba732377650808a9d6b1cd575d6f88d8.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×