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Engine block number help


RUIN4T1ON

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New to the forum here. I picked up my first real project car recently, a 1938 Plymouth 2dr sedan. Due to state requirements with titling and such, I had to have an inspector come out to verify the vin/engine block number before receiving my title. I hadn't given it too much thought initially, but he pointed out that my block had a odd serial stamped on the flat 6 block. The block reads S40452KAN and we had scraped the paint off to make sure there were no hidden numbers or symbols. I was wondering if anyone had any info on an S4 series? Research tells me the S is from the De Soto line but nothing on the "4", which seems to be omitted in all the lists I've found so far. Attached are some pics of the car/block. Any thoughts?

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DeSoto skipped over S4 in their series of model numbers.  So my guess is that what you have is a commercially rebuilt engine.  Further evidence being the remnants of a brass tag that was revited to the block just forward of the stamped pad.  It shows in the picture.  Generally these tags recorded the machine work that was done during the rebuild,typically over bored cylinders, and specifying crankshaft grinding and size of bearings instaled.  

The number is probably a state issued designator issued by the DMV of the state where the rebuild was done.  What number appears on your ownership documents?  Some jurisdictions used engine numbers, some used serial numbers. The serial number for your Plymouth would typically appear one a plate attached to one of the "A" pillars.  You may be able to find a duplicate original engine number stamped into the driver's side frame rail behind the rear wheel.  It should start with a P followed by 6,7,or 8, depending how your car was equipped.  

How long is the cylinder head of the engine?  23 1/2 are US dodge, Plymouth, and truck engines 25 inches makes it a Chyrser or DeSoto, or a Canadian product. 

Engine swaps and rebuilds were pretty common on these vehicles, you could get a rebuilt engine from Sears and Rhoebuck, so it is not unusually to come up against these issues at title time after a purchase.

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Appreciate all the good info, Greg. That checks with what the previous owner mentioned. The block matches what the original South Carolina title had listed as the "VIN". I guess they used that verses the serial on the plate on the firewall. The motor was rebuilt but by the owner before him, so he didn't have too many details on if it was restamped, etc. I'm out of town now, but will measure the block/check the frame rail when I get home. This will give me a good start to figuring out what North Carolina wants to do to get me my title.  Thanks again!

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1 hour ago, RUIN4T1ON said:

Appreciate all the good info, Greg. That checks with what the previous owner mentioned. The block matches what the original South Carolina title had listed as the "VIN". I guess they used that verses the serial on the plate on the firewall. The motor was rebuilt but by the owner before him, so he didn't have too many details on if it was restamped, etc. I'm out of town now, but will measure the block/check the frame rail when I get home. This will give me a good start to figuring out what North Carolina wants to do to get me my title.  Thanks again!

I'm from NC too,and the number game can be a nightmare if you get a DMV inspector new to the game and ignorant,or one who doesn't really give a damn.

My suggestion,and worth every penny it cost you,is to be as nice and reasonable as you know how to be if he gives you any grief over the unusual engine serial number,and POLITELY point out to him that the car was legally registered with that number in South Carolina,so North Carolina has a legal obligation to issue you a clear title with that engine number. When doing this you might consider POLITELY suggesting to him that an alternative might be to issue you a title matching  the serial number on the door jamb to lessen confusion and make sure your car is titled as a 1938 Plymouth.

If he is one of those arrogant pricks on a power trip that insists you "Respect MY authori-Tay", inform him that you will have your lawyer send the head of the DMV a formal letter asking him why he thinks he,as the head of the NC DMV, thinks he has the authority to give his  field agents the power to violate the Commerce Clause to the US Constitution. I'm betting he will immediately become more reasonable. 

 

Do NOT start with  that as the opener,though. It's your "if nothing else including reason works" option. No need to antagonize anyone needlessly and make a badge-carrying enemy out of someone who might just be operating out of ignorance  instead off someone on a power trip operating out of arrogance.  MOST of those guys are just there to do the job,and trying  to do it as well as they can,but in any field you might mention there is always the  possibility of catching someone when they are having a bad day and they just don't feel like doing the necessary research needed to dot all the "i"s and cross all the "t"s.  It happens. Chances are if you point this out to him in a reasonable manner even  if he gets a bit tiffed at that moment,that he will be grateful to you later on after he has a chance to think it over because what you are actually doing is making his job easier and more pleasant for him.

 

BTW,the first thing you should do is crawl around under your car and see if the brakelines look new of if they look old and rusty. Or in the case of the rubber lines,old and brittle. If they are,the very next thing you need to do is replace both and make certain your emergency brake works. If you can,pull the brake drums and see if everything they are hiding looks to be reasonably new,or decades old. If it looks old,plan on doing a complete brake replacement job from the master cylinder to the  wheel cylinders. I know it seems like a pain in the butt,but it's cheap insurance.

BTW-2,you need a special puller designed for old Mopars and Fords to pull the back drums. They go on tapered axle ends and are a press fit. Don't think you can use a modern brake drum puller to remove them. You can't. Do a archives search her for "brake jobs" and you will see that puller,which can be bought new for less than 50 bucks or rented,as well as full instructions and photos on how to do everything.

Remember,these are old cars with single outlet master cylinders,and if a brake line fails,you are screwed if your emergency brake doesn't work properly.

Edited by knuckleharley
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Well if that's the number on the SC title and the inspector verified it, you should be good to go to title it, though I hear NC can be persnickety some times, but if he signed off don't know why they would go looking for something else.  Do I see two air cleaners peaking out from under the hood???  Tell us more about your sharp looking ride. The body number is a Briggs Body Manufacturing number.  The serial number is what Chrysleruses as the identifier for assembled cars.  You can send in to get a replica of the build card if you want to see who the original dealer was and other build options.

My cousin's daughter lives in Wake county, and we have been wintering southeast of New Been for the past three years.

The search for the original engine number requires a power wire brush, good lighting, and perserverence.  It is usually on the arched area over the rear axle.  Have fun!

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Appreciate the info guys. Fortunately for me, this doesn't seem to be a case of the rogue/evil inspector. I've been out of town on some training, so my wife has been working with him. She said since he's not 100% familiar with this era of cars, he's open to hearing any helpful info I can find (ie. this forum) to figure out the correct way to handle this.

@greg gNice! I live in south Wake near Fuquay. If you are in town and see me cruising around, stop me and say hello haha

@knuckleharleyI was lucky enough to find a nice baseline car in excellent shape. It has both some modern upgrades already installed, but still room to grow and allow me to learn. The guy before me had all the receipts and info on work done. Some of the upgrades included an all new disk brake conversion up front, as well as redone (larger) drums in the back (72 Roadrunner rear end). Needless to say the thing stops like a champ.

I'll start a new/better intro thread once I get back in from being on the road with a full list of details and future plans. Thanks again for the help guys!

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If I may suggest, try to get your new title issued with the body serial number rather than the engine number. Although you may never need to change the block, whom ever follows you might and then they would be back in line at the dmv...

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BTW,for any of you that live in or are going to move to NC,it is possible to get a unique NC state VIN number for your antique car with the correct year and company name if your antique car or truck is a collection of parts,IF you have receipts for the major parts. For example,my 1937 Dodge truck is titled as a 1937 Dodge truck,but has a unique NC VIN number tag in the door now. This was necessary because the original engine was long gone,and so was the serial number in the door jamb,yet it had been titled in another state as a 1937 Dodge.

Basically,the only 1937 Dodge parts are the body parts. Even the chassis is different. It is a 70's 4X4 chassis. Having the clear title for the 70's donor truck as well as the original 37 Dodge truck title were key to this being possible.

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Searched around for the block number stamped on the outside, drivers side frame rail. After a ton of scraping and wirebrushing the only number I found was located just behind the gas tank cross member, behind the wheel/axle, and just forward of the fill tube (pictured). Anyone have an idea  if this (231426) is the original block number? The P prefix seems to be missing. Or is it a frame parts number?  Any other 38 owners have any pics they can share? 

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