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fluid drive downshifts


Royal Duke

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Can anyone send me an updated, accurate wiring schematic of the systems controlling the Fluid Drive M4 transmission? Failing that, perhaps pictures of how you have the governor, solenoid, and interrupter switch, etc wired in a properly operating Fluid Drive equipped car. I am nearly at wits end trying to figure this out.  The schematic in the 1941 Chrysler shop manual does not reflect what I see on my car. So the question comes to mind, "Did someone years ago jury rig the wiring, or is the schematic not a true showing of how it is to be wired?"   Duke

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4 hours ago, Royal Duke said:

Dodgeb4ya  - are the diaphram and piston types interchangeable? if so, do you want to sell one of the piston types you have? Duke

No... requires some different wiring (six terminal relay ec) and other parts.

Both vacuum and piston type shift systems are  thoroughly explained in the 1941-48 DeSoto shop manual plus the later M-5     late 1942 and 1946-48   Tip-Toe transmissions.

The factory shop manual has everything in it including the correct wiring diagrams. I've used these diagrams many time to re-wire these M-4 and M-5 systems.

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13 hours ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

No... requires some different wiring (six terminal relay ec) and other parts.

Both vacuum and piston type shift systems are  thoroughly explained in the 1941-48 DeSoto shop manual plus the later M-5     late 1942 and 1946-48   Tip-Toe transmissions.

The factory shop manual has everything in it including the correct wiring diagrams. I've used these diagrams many time to re-wire these M-4 and M-5 systems.

I agree with Dodgeb4ya. The shop manual has what you need. But here is a colored version for easier tracing. The colors are random.

electrical_diagram.bmp

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1 hour ago, Alex said:

I have the same problem with the Fluid Drive ! i can only drive in 2nd and 4th gear !

There is no upshifting !


is it possible that the voltage regulator has an influence on the switching of the fluid drive ?

 

 

The transmission on the 41's is a vacamatic the fluid drive is another part  associated with the clutch and flywheel.

Normally the transmission defaults to the under drives 1st in low and 3rd in high. If your car is using 2nd in low and direct in high the shaft at the end of the vacuum pod is probably pulled to the left off shift lever. You can manually place the rod back on the shift lever from under the car, if this is the problem you lock out cable might be restricting the return of the vacuum pod shaft returning to the shift lever.

You can see that my vacuum pod rod is off the shift lever to the left of the green shift lever locking mine in 2nd and direct as I have a diaphragm leak. To place the rod back on the lever, push lever back and swivel the vacuum pod assembly to the right placing the end of the shaft on the shift lever. Just a bit wordy.

20170524_104831.jpg

Edited by 1949 Goat
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 Thanks for the explanation 

I have removed the fuse that I can drive at all !

With the fuse ,they have no upshift automatic ! I Think the problem can be that the Governor not works well !

And an other problem that i have is when the reverse is inserted ,jammed the lever and I can not switch back !

Do you know this problem ?

 


 
 

 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Alex said:

 Thanks for the explanation 

I have removed the fuse that I can drive at all !

With the fuse ,they have no upshift automatic ! I Think the problem can be that the Governor not works well !

And an other problem that i have is when the reverse is inserted ,jammed the lever and I can not switch back !

Do you know this problem ?

 



 
 

 

 

 

 

 

When the transmission like mine is locked into the 2nd and direct gears, as yours is I believe.  If there is any load on the gears the column shift lever will jam in that position even with the clutch in.

An example is; I have a 2X4 board to position my car when I pull into my garage. If I pull up against the board in gear the column shift will not move out of that position, I can not move the car even with the clutch in(still can't figure that out).  To release the lever I have to start the car and move over the board, once the pressure is off the gears the car shifts into neutral and shift properly into all ranges.

In your case if you are stuck in reverse I suspect there is a decline putting a load on the reverse gear. Try starting your car and reversing slightly and as the car moves shift into neutral. 

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1 hour ago, 1949 Goat said:

When the transmission like mine is locked into the 2nd and direct gears, as yours is I believe.  If there is any load on the gears the column shift lever will jam in that position even with the clutch in.

An example is; I have a 2X4 board to position my car when I pull into my garage. If I pull up against the board in gear the column shift will not move out of that position, I can not move the car even with the clutch in(still can't figure that out).  To release the lever I have to start the car and move over the board, once the pressure is off the gears the car shifts into neutral and shift properly into all ranges.

In your case if you are stuck in reverse I suspect there is a decline putting a load on the reverse gear. Try starting your car and reversing slightly and as the car moves shift into neutral. 

Could also be worn linkage. When it happens i Just push the car back with my foot.

Some years ago I made this electrical diagram from the original and shaved off everything to have a better view of the electrics and find out more about the "magic" of the transmission. Maybe it's useful for Alex, as he's also mentioning fuses.

I'm including both.

1_Page_1.png

1.png

Edited by chrysler1941
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Thank`s for your tips  / 1949 Goat & 1941 Chrysler

This weekend i have changed the Voltage Regulator , because i have a overload at the batterie !

Now it is between 7,2 & 7,4 Volt . Bevor it was at 8,2 Volt !!!! I thought that could also be a reason that I had no upshifting !  But it`s still no upshifting !I think i have to change the Transmission Solenoid Relay too !What do you think about that ?I Think the problem with the  column shift will not move out of that position is common on this transmission !

When you drive reverse up it is very heavy to move the car with the foot and than is it a big problem to move out the shift lever !!!!!


 

 

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1 hour ago, Alex said:

Thank`s for your tips  / 1949 Goat & 1941 Chrysler

This weekend i have changed the Voltage Regulator , because i have a overload at the batterie !

Now it is between 7,2 & 7,4 Volt . Bevor it was at 8,2 Volt !!!! I thought that could also be a reason that I had no upshifting !  But it`s still no upshifting !I think i have to change the Transmission Solenoid Relay too !What do you think about that ?I Think the problem with the  column shift will not move out of that position is common on this transmission !

When you drive reverse up it is very heavy to move the car with the foot and than is it a big problem to move out the shift lever !!!!!



 

 

Make sure your idle on the engine is set low as it is a requirement for the transmission to upshift properly

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3 hours ago, Alex said:

Thank`s for your tips  / 1949 Goat & 1941 Chrysler

This weekend i have changed the Voltage Regulator , because i have a overload at the batterie !

Now it is between 7,2 & 7,4 Volt . Bevor it was at 8,2 Volt !!!! I thought that could also be a reason that I had no upshifting !  But it`s still no upshifting !I think i have to change the Transmission Solenoid Relay too !What do you think about that ?I Think the problem with the  column shift will not move out of that position is common on this transmission !

When you drive reverse up it is very heavy to move the car with the foot and than is it a big problem to move out the shift lever !!!!!



 

 

Seems to me you're hoping it's an electrical problem. As 1949Goat mentions could be high idle, but also :

FAILURE TO UPSHIFT
(a) Electrical
Governor permanently grounded.
Relay inoperative.
Blown relay fuse.
Kickdown switch permanently grounded.
Wiring circuits grounded.

(b) Hydraulic
Insufficient or improper oil in transmission
(10-W engine oil-3 pints capacity). (ISO-32 Hyd oil 1.41 Litre)

 Oil pump producing less than 40 lbs. pressure.
Restricted or bound pilot valve and main valve.
Relief valve stuck in open position.

 

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i will check this parts if they work correct ! Has someone of you  an explosion view drawing of the governor ? i have bought a NOS U-Drive Kickdown switch plate and will change it ! I Think it is better to see on the drawing how the parts are correct ! And i think my wiring is awful ! Does knows someone of you where i can get a complete wiring harness ?

                                                                                            

59ca977877dd3_DSC_0529(Klein).JPG.09e97ab429a659e4d2adb5990cd1f6e6.JPG

Edited by Alex
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8 minutes ago, Alex said:

i will check this parts if they work correct ! Has someone of you  an explosion view drawing of the governor ? i have bought a NOS U-Drive Kickdown switch plate and will change it ! I Think it is better to see on the drawing how the parts are correct ! And i think my wiring is awful ! Does knows someone of you where i can get a complete wiring harness ?

                                                                                            

59ca977877dd3_DSC_0529(Klein).JPG.09e97ab429a659e4d2adb5990cd1f6e6.JPG

 

governor 1.PNG

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hey guys, I have still not figured out the problem with my 1941 Royal downshifting to the lower gear (LL from LH or HL from HH). I am convinced, perhaps wrongly, that it is due to a loss of vacuum. So my question is, where are the pilot valve and control valve located? Viewing the "Tech" manuals, they show the M5 and not the M4 vacamatic transmission. Your help would be greatly appreciated. It is getting cool out here now, and I'd like to get this straightened out.  Duke

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8 minutes ago, Royal Duke said:

Hey guys, I have still not figured out the problem with my 1941 Royal downshifting to the lower gear (LL from LH or HL from HH). I am convinced, perhaps wrongly, that it is due to a loss of vacuum. So my question is, where are the pilot valve and control valve located? Viewing the "Tech" manuals, they show the M5 and not the M4 vacamatic transmission. Your help would be greatly appreciated. It is getting cool out here now, and I'd like to get this straightened out.  Duke

I will post the diagrams in a few minutes

 

 

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Thank you 1955 Fargo. I will trace out the wiring on my car to see if it matches what you sent.  Another thing I think i will try is to use some carb cleaner to see if possibly the kickdown is stuck inside the carburetor and thus affecting the shifting of the transmission. 

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  • 1 year later...

I had two 41 Chryslers. One was a Windsor and still have a Royal. The Windsor was stolen along with $5000.00 worth of ham equipment. I almost had it finished and still have the engine and enough trim for four cars. I also have three transmissions (2 3- speed and 1 4-speed) fluid drives. I also have a 46-48 trans.

 

I have one problem, in that I am missing the Kickdown operating levers both inner and outer.  I have many parts for trade!!  I hope someone can help.

 

Cliff

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