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Rebuilding engine


40desoto

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Hate to be the bearer of bad tidings but some studs/bolts pass into the water jackets and should have sealant to stop water leaks...........if it were me I'd be showing the rebuild shop a copy of the shop manual as, as far as I know all shop manuals state to use a thread sealer..............I think you will have to remove the head and the ARP studs, use a good quality thread sealer, on , for me .....ALL HEAD STUD THREADS and check the head gasket whether it can be reused........at the very least I'd expect the rebuild shop to supply a new head gasket ..........and BTW.........the pic of the engine has me curious re the "ARP" studs statement............I purchased ARP studs when I was building the 230 engine a few years ago and the ARP brand head studs were installed using a small hex wrench as each stud had an internal hex at one end which was plainly and easily seen even when the nuts were installed........YOUR head studs do NOT have this feature so I am curious as to their being ARP brand...........or have they been installed upside down?...........regards, Andy Douglas   

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11 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

disturbing water is pouring out on a rebuilt not ever fired over at static pressure...are your gaskets in place...was the head trued? what are your torque values and be sure any checks you make to go in sequence...

Thank you Adams.  Got me thinking as well how easily they wept water.  Just 5 minutes after i filled radiator to top I noticed the water.

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11 minutes ago, Andydodge said:

Hate to be the bearer of bad tidings but some studs/bolts pass into the water jackets and should have sealant to stop water leaks...........if it were me I'd be showing the rebuild shop a copy of the shop manual as, as far as I know all shop manuals state to use a thread sealer..............I think you will have to remove the head and the ARP studs, use a good quality thread sealer, on , for me .....ALL HEAD STUD THREADS and check the head gasket whether it can be reused........at the very least I'd expect the rebuild shop to supply a new head gasket ..........and BTW.........the pic of the engine has me curious re the "ARP" studs statement............I purchased ARP studs when I was building the 230 engine a few years ago and the ARP brand head studs were installed using a small hex wrench as each stud had an internal hex at one end which was plainly and easily seen even when the nuts were installed........YOUR head studs do NOT have this feature so I am curious as to their being ARP brand...........or have they been installed upside down?...........regards, Andy Douglas   

I was thinking of removing each stud adding sealant and reinstalling without having to take the head off.   Would this be doable?

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as  your gasket has not seen a heat cycle....I think I would pull the head for a full inspection....I would check the 'true' of the head also.  as Andy pointed out the studs should have had a means to hold them in position and be able to screw them into the block and as I have also seen, this is usually an allen head wrench.  I believe all but three bolts go into the water jacket, the others into the intake ports.  

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Some are ARP studs and some are not.

the ARP’s have small ARP stamping on top of the stud but not slot on either side as specified.

 

question is the torque specs determined by the bolt manufacturer or the shop manual?  

C5FD0975-EF29-4F19-9560-D670FC8AE899.jpeg

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I would have thought that the torque specs relate to the size of the fastener and the material its made from........the engine manufacturer would have designed the engine, decided on the size of the various fasteners that they needed and then consulted with the various bolt suppliers/makers as to the torque specs that the bolts etc will take, if within the engine makers specs then I suppose thats what the shop manual has printed..........but as I mentioned I'd be putting sealer on every stud/bolt...........also noticed the thermostat housing bolt has no flat washer, I might be a pedantic SOAB, lol....but I'd throw a washer under every bolt.......and BTW.........nice looking engine and engine stand setup.........most impressive..........andyd       

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There are a lot of applications/locations where bolt strength, or the standard bolt torque tables are not part of the actual torque spec.'  Oil pans or valve covers are the most extreme example.  But cylinder heads and block decks in most engines engines are weaker that the maximum torque a grade 8 bolt can survive.  One of the most knowledgeable members of this forum posted a comment about block cracks below the head mounting surface due to over torqueing the head.

 

IMO, the torque levels are usually set by the equipment/part/unit design engineer.  They then select a fastener that can survive and maintain that force with sufifcient safety margin.
 

 

 

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Thanks to all for your input. 

So... heres the latest- I took out each leaking stud independently, sealed and reinstalled to torque spec.  Rechecked everything before attempting to start engine for initial break in.

When cranking over there was backfire through the carbs.  We reviewed the spark plug firing order etc and proceeded to remove the plug on top of the head to determine the position of the #6 piston was relevant to the timing  mark on the balancer.  When sticking a wire in to check the wire fell into the cylinder chamber!...??

 

I had two helping hands and we immediately proceeded to remove the head. At that point my mechanic neighbor helping me determined that the distributor was on wrong. 

I noticed  that when setting the engine at cylinder # TDC the distributor is pointing at the  1:00 oclock rather than the 7:00 oclock position.  Any ideas?  Recommendations?

 

3607B15B-516D-481D-8C33-778B5C4CEC17.jpeg

BF7D693F-F8EC-4931-A6FF-F89651E39AC8.jpeg

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Easy approach:  put the #1 wire in that spot and complete the wiring in the proper order.  Harder, by the book approach:  remove distributor and oil pump, reinstall oil pump as specified in the manual and follow with the distributor.

 

Recommendation:  by the book.  makes any follow on work less likely to lead to confusion.

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40Desoto...........shite!!...........re that wire method...........any time I've done that I've used a piece of wire about 12" long at least..........unfortunately that doesn't help you now, tho' life is a learning game..............as Ken says, setup the engine as per the shop manual and you should be right to go..............thinking positive thoughts for you from 10000 miles away.........lol..............regards..........andyd

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I'm currently building up a rebuilt 218 short block for it's first start.  Sounds like your oil pump is installed correctly but the distributer is 180 degrees out.  Verify you are at #1 cyl. at top dead center (piston at TDC and both valves closed).  Pull distributor out and using a flash light look in the hole at the slot on the end of the oil pump.  It should be horizontal going from 3 to 9 o'clock position. Turn rotor on distributor to 7 o'clock position and install.  A little wiggle may be required to get distributor tang into oil pump slot but that should do it.  Note that distributor rotor rotates in "clock wise" direction and verify plug wires are in proper firing order sequence starting with #1 at 7 o'clock position. Should be ready to go. Regards

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  • 1 month later...

I thought I'd share the latest and my experiences and what I've learned. Along the way.

 

The rebuild shop dropped off the engine to me and stated that they did not have to proper stand to put the engine on the dyno as they initially mentioned they would be willing to do for an extra charge.

The shop installed everything on the engine- Distributor, plugs, wires, water pump, head, flywheel, starter,  triple intake, exhaust, etc..

When I proceeded to break in the motor as soon as I put water some head studs, one exhaust bolt, the water pump and one freeze plug leaked water.  This is without staring the motor.  When I communicated with the shop they stated that this was common and that they will self seal over time. 

I removed and reinstalled the water pump using permatex pft sealant on the threads and also removed and used permatex on the leaking head studs.  Added water again and no leaks.

When attempting to start the engine it would not fire up due to the timing issue.  The distributor was installed 180 degrees off.  I adjusted it it and to avoid having to reindex the oil pump I extended the adjusting gap on the distributor cap to be able to do further timing adjustment.

While doing so my neighbor that was assisting me to find TDC  dropped a 6 inch wire down the 6th cylinder chamber :-O..  

Lucky I had an extra head new headgasket laying around.   

 

We were finally able to minimize the water leak and get the the motor to start and stay on for the 20 minute break in period without overheating.  All other head studs started leaking.  I eventually removed all studs and resealed them with permatex PFT.  Man, so far this stuff works great.

I have since installed an electrical pump (rather not rant about what happen with the mechanical pump), a Holley 2-4.5 psi pressure regulator, a triple carb fuel block and plumbed brass/nickle hard fuel lines to the carburetors.  The car starts fine and stays idle, timing issue solved but I do noticed that the carburetor gaskets seem to slightly leaking fuel.  My neighbor which is not a big fan of Carter B&B's says that this is why he doesnt like these carbs and since they are old technology will always leak like that and will be near impossible to tune and adjust due to tolerences on the mechanisms and thus causing vacuum leaks...??  I'll send an email out to Tim Kingsbury and see what he recommends regarding the fuel leak.  

 

Attaching  a couple of videos and pictures of the project.  Once again, thanks to all those that have provided advice and input.

 

 

 

 

 

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On 8/21/2017 at 2:34 AM, Don Coatney said:

I did a regrind on my cam. Prior to installing the shaved head I used a dial indicator to measure the lift to insure I had ample valve to head clearance.

Valvelift-1-1.jpg

 

I can attest to doing what Don did. I had a rebuilt engine that I ended up assembling as the 84 year old machinist was running way behind schedule. The block was decked and the head was milled. It started up and ran like **** no matter what we did. I tore the head off and the valve on number one was snapped clean from the stem and one on number 5 was bent.

 

I replaced all the valves and pulled the cam in place, which meant the radiator and grill has to come out of a restored car. When I measured the head it was cut a LOT. I grabbed another head I have, had it lightly cleaned up and then I placed it on with a thin disc of clay about 1/8 inch thick on each valve. I stuck the head on with a couple of bolts and hand cranked it over easy feeling for any resistance.

 

I then pulled the head (I oiled the head so any clay would not stick, and looked over the clay to see how much space was left. Since only a couple of valves hit with the old head, I wanted to check them all. Don's method will work, but you should do each and every valve and each spot on the head.  Don't forget to use a head gasket the same thickness as the one you will use that is OLD and compresses already.

 

In my case the first head was obviously cut way too much. But I did not take my own advise to double check everything and it bit me.

 

 

 

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On 7/26/2019 at 4:48 PM, 40desoto said:

I was thinking of removing each stud adding sealant and reinstalling without having to take the head off.   Would this be doable?

 

I have had this issue on all three or four of my flatheads when using the ARP studs. I found that I needed to wrap the threads in the block with white or even yellow pipe tape to get the ones in the jacket to not leak. Paste did not work. All of these threads were cased with "cleaning taps". 

 

Now I do that on any flathead I build.  This will NOT work on bolts as it will affect the torque. On studs it will not affect the torque.

 

I have done one stud at a time without any issue on head sealing.

 

James

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On 7/27/2019 at 8:24 AM, 40desoto said:

Some are ARP studs and some are not.

the ARP’s have small ARP stamping on top of the stud but not slot on either side as specified.

 

question is the torque specs determined by the bolt manufacturer or the shop manual?  

C5FD0975-EF29-4F19-9560-D670FC8AE899.jpeg

 

 

Remove them all and toss them. Order a complete set from ARP. You will end of with different clamping forces on the head. They need to be the same material or the bolt stretch will not be equal.

 

James

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One thing I recommend to everyone is to deck the block. If you run a straight edge along the head bolt-stud line you can see sometimes that the area is raised. I had a gasket go in my '47 a few years back when I was running it hard between San Francisco and my place in the edge of the Sacramento Valley. Highway speed of 70 MPH in 110F heat on a car of 5500 pounds.

 

When I pulled the head and put a straight edge on the block one area around one stud was raised up a hair. I knocked it flat with a file, did the same on the head and put it back together. The head on that block was NOS when I got it. I used Don's specs to shave to 8 to 1 and CC the cambers to within 1cc each. 

 

Next spring, once my back is better, I will start on the 265 for the big Desoto.  I need to find a new machinist which in Northern California is going to take some time as all the old ones I used for years and all dead or in Nursing Homes!

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Just so people know...

 

One thing I did on the big desoto engine was to pay my machine shop a couple of hundred dollars...they worked the rod big ends to that ARP 351 Cleveland rod bolts can be used. They are the "correct" size, the only issue is the lower cap has to be milled flat to get rid of the recess for those little split washers and there was some little work on the other end.

 

The only failure I have personally seen on a flathead was a core I purchased years ago and it was a failed rod bolt.

 

James

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I too have used ARP studs with no internal hex for screwing them in or out. Just the ARP on the fine thread @ the "top" end.

I use a Snap-on stud tool for installation and removal of  studs. Fast and easy.

ARP Studs (3).JPG

ARP Studs (4).JPG

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/23/2019 at 8:13 PM, Dodgeb4ya said:

I too have used ARP studs with no internal hex for screwing them in or out. Just the ARP on the fine thread @ the "top" end.

I use a Snap-on stud tool for installation and removal of  studs. Fast and easy.

ARP Studs (3).JPG

ARP Studs (4).JPG

What size/range is that stud removal tool?

 

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There are different sizes in this CG500 Snap on set to cover the most common thread sizes. Lookin at probably $400.00 or more though.

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38 minutes ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

There are different sizes in this CG500 Snap on set to cover the most common thread sizes. Lookin at probably $400.00 or more though.

?? I think ill just use two interlocking 1/2 nuts to install and remove.

 

thank you

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