medium_jon Posted July 11, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2017 Once the old brake components are off you are left with the two spindles and the steering arms: To make our job a little easier, we cut the flexible brake hose rather than disassemble them. Nobody should reuse those, so we made sure of it. I'll take the part that remains off when I do the new brake lines in the coming weeks. Yes, we are doing this in our gravel driveway. That is what we got. Well, there is a garage, but the last time there was a car in it was several years ago when my oldest son had to replace the timing chain and valves in a 2003 VW Beatle whose timing chain broke and bent multiple valves. I told him he could take that car to college if he got it running. He did, but now my 16-year-old daughter drives it and he drives one of my 3 Toyota Prius. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medium_jon Posted July 11, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2017 The Scarebird brackets attach to the spindles with 3 grade 8 bolts per side. The bolts are three different lengths: Those go in this order on the brackets: Shortest at top Longest in towards the back of the car -- hole closest to the tie rods Medium length towards the front of the car. From the side and not aligned, it looks like this: The brackets look like this once all the bolts are tightened: Note: The Scarebird instructions say: "Place adapter plate over spindle with the caliper mount welds outward." So those nuts that are shown on the left of the last photo sit proud of the plate on the outside. The bracket is flush towards the inside of the car. And yes, the only place you can see the welds are indeed to the outside. If I could offer a suggestion, I wish they would clearly mark each bracket with inside, outside, left, right, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medium_jon Posted July 11, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) With the brackets installed, next up are the hubs. Those hubs are beautiful pieces of machinery. They have the inner parts of the wheel bearings already installed. My son greased the inner bearing -- I assume you can't over do that operation -- and then he put in the grease seal. Our Scarebird instructions (which I got before I got the kit) said I needed to buy grease seals, so I did. But my kit came with them. Having never seen such a thing, we flipped it back and forth multiple times deciding which way was in and which way was out. We decided as shown: which puts the seal slightly closer to the inner bearing. Tight fit, so we put a board on the inside and outside of the hub faces and hammered the board until the grease seal was flush with the inner face. I hope that was right. Next up to slide that onto the spindle and pack the outer wheel bearing with grease and install: I'm missing a photo, so that is all the step-by-step instructions for now. Edited July 13, 2017 by medium_jon Corrected the word 'rotor' to 'hub' 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andydodge Posted July 11, 2017 Report Share Posted July 11, 2017 Looks like your having fun.........lol...........btw an easy way to deal with split pins that are in difficult to get at in places is to use an open mouth spanner or tightly fitted adjustable spanner onto the nut and just turn it to undo, the split pins will shear and both ends fall off, use WD40 or similar to lubricate the nut thread and just undo the nut as normal with a socket, ring or open mouth spanner, once the nut is off just use a long punch or even a nail to push the split pin remains out of the hole, they are mild steel and will not damage the bolt/nut at least that's what I've found over the past 45 yrs........and with doing up the centre hub nut, don't try to set it until the rotor and caliper are properly mounted, do it up but wait till its the last step before putting the wheel back on then I use just an adjustable wrench, do the nut up till the rotor is firm then back it off one hole on the castle nut, it should be free to turn but not binding...........also a final suggestion while you have good access to the front end is to grease all the grease nipples especially the stub axle ones while you have the opportunity.............regards, Andy Douglas 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worden18 Posted July 11, 2017 Report Share Posted July 11, 2017 Looking good man; I'll be keeping an eye on your progress 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dale Posted July 11, 2017 Report Share Posted July 11, 2017 14 hours ago, medium_jon said: Sorry for the delay in updating the post. After removing the drums, the next step is the three nuts on the spindles. There are two at the bottom that have castle nuts and cotter pins. One will stay with the back of the drum, one will come out, but it isn't threaded, you will need to tap it loose from the back. Similarly, the top of the spindle has a long bolt -- and happily for my son, no castle nut. He didn't like those things. Again, tap that bolt from the back and the back of the drum with all the mechanism will come loose and look similar to this: That is the 2nd one we removed. We didn't realize that was all it took and we pretty much disassembled the entire mechanism on one side. It was a learning experience for my son and I. My the way, if anyone wants the old drums and the associated parts, they are boxed. You can have them for the price of shipping. Send me a message here (yes, I have that feature turned on). The Scarebird plates that hold the calipers are left and right handed.. The holes have protrusions that make them so... Did you buy the master cylinder that mounts on the firewall ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dale Posted July 11, 2017 Report Share Posted July 11, 2017 14 hours ago, medium_jon said: Sorry for the delay in updating the post. After removing the drums, the next step is the three nuts on the spindles. There are two at the bottom that have castle nuts and cotter pins. One will stay with the back of the drum, one will come out, but it isn't threaded, you will need to tap it loose from the back. Similarly, the top of the spindle has a long bolt -- and happily for my son, no castle nut. He didn't like those things. Again, tap that bolt from the back and the back of the drum with all the mechanism will come loose and look similar to this: That is the 2nd one we removed. We didn't realize that was all it took and we pretty much disassembled the entire mechanism on one side. It was a learning experience for my son and I. My the way, if anyone wants the old drums and the associated parts, they are boxed. You can have them for the price of shipping. Send me a message here (yes, I have that feature turned on). Oops.. I see there was page two.. You already got past the bracket installation. Looking good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medium_jon Posted July 11, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2017 8 minutes ago, dale said: Did you buy the master cylinder that mounts on the firewall No, I couldn't see how it was going to fit there. But the remote tanks will be mounted somewhere on the firewall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dale Posted July 11, 2017 Report Share Posted July 11, 2017 1 minute ago, medium_jon said: No, I couldn't see how it was going to fit there. But the remote tanks will be mounted somewhere on the firewall I had some difficulty but did get a power unit on the firewall.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cudan Posted July 11, 2017 Report Share Posted July 11, 2017 a disk conversion is also on my list and i will follow your thread, thanks for sharing. Dan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medium_jon Posted July 13, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2017 For my kit, the rotors are to be Napa part 4886318. But even though I gave my nice local Napa store that number, they gave me a rear rotor number 4886319 instead of the needed front. Again I think the Scarebird instructions could include more detail. For example. they only list the application as: 1993-96 Ford Probe. Here is what the rotors look like mounted: I just need time to get the new brake lines run and the new master cylinder and proportioning valve installed. My work and family commitments are getting in the way of my son's work on these disc brakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medium_jon Posted July 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2017 The calipers for my Scarebird Disc Brake conversion kit were specified to be Napa 442-2046 and 442-2047 whose application is 1983-92 (Chevrolet) S10 4WD (front) Left and Right calipers. What Nama sold me was this and its mate: SE-4680. I forget which is left and right. Just mount them so that the bleed valve is UP. Both the calipers and the pads came with metal clips shown here on the inner pad: That isn't a great picture but the tab (top of this next photo) goes into the inner brake pad's hold in the center and the out edges (left in this next photo) wraps around towards the hub. There were zero instructions about those clips. Couldn't find anything online either. My son, good boy, just started messing with it (he loves messing with stuff) until he found where it would stick. The purpose of the clips is to cause the inner brake pad to stay with the piston of the calipers. Without the friction fit they provide, they would be rather rattly. The outer caliper has 4 fingers on the back that keep it from moving too much. It is important to note, there are zero shims, no retaining wires, nothing other than that clip and it is only on the inner caliper. The calipers attach to the Scarebird brackets with two threaded pins. They have names which escape me at the moment (10+ PM at the moment). These must be torqued to 35-foot pounds. Not a huge amount, but as the next photo shows, access is somewhat limited. I have two torque wrenches and (explain this to me please) the one that does lower values (20 to 150 foot pounds) is 18" and the one that does higher values is only 12". Well on the driver's side, the steering arm is in the way to use any wrench going to the back of the car. There wasn't enough room to go up without hitting the fenders with that 18" wrench. So we got the tiny bottle jack under the suspension and raised the assembly enough to torque the rod on the bottom of the calipers. Luckily we didn't need to leave it there long -- not particularly safe looking. We are now waiting for me to have time to form and run the new brake lines. I'd rather do that myself so I know nothing got pinched and nothing leaks. More updates after we do something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Roberts Posted July 14, 2017 Report Share Posted July 14, 2017 Did you put any of the anti - rattle goop on the back of the pads ? You smear it on and let it get semi dry . Better safe than sorry . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Roberts Posted July 14, 2017 Report Share Posted July 14, 2017 " ... The calipers for my Scarebird Disc Brake conversion kit were specified to be Napa 442-2046 and 442-2047 whose application is 1983-92 (Chevrolet) S10 ..." So will you be running Chevrolet rims on the front and Dodge rims on the back ? Carry two spares ? Buy the special rims that will fit both bolt patterns ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted July 14, 2017 Report Share Posted July 14, 2017 11 minutes ago, Jerry Roberts said: " ... The calipers for my Scarebird Disc Brake conversion kit were specified to be Napa 442-2046 and 442-2047 whose application is 1983-92 (Chevrolet) S10 ..." So will you be running Chevrolet rims on the front and Dodge rims on the back ? Carry two spares ? Buy the special rims that will fit both bolt patterns ? The calipers don't care what the wheel bolt pattern is. The discs do. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Roberts Posted July 14, 2017 Report Share Posted July 14, 2017 (edited) Right , He said Chevy CALIPERS and in my minId's eye I was seeing Chevy DISKS . My mistake . Edited July 14, 2017 by Jerry Roberts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Roberts Posted July 18, 2017 Report Share Posted July 18, 2017 On 7/13/2017 at 7:26 PM, Jerry Roberts said: Did you put any of the anti - rattle goop on the back of the pads ? You smear it on and let it get semi dry . Better safe than sorry . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medium_jon Posted July 19, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2017 On 7/13/2017 at 10:26 PM, Jerry Roberts said: Did you put any of the anti - rattle goop on the back of the pads ? You smear it on and let it get semi dry . Better safe than sorry . @Jerry Roberts, no. But it definitely isn't too late. That makes sense. Thanks for the suggestion. I didn't know that goop existed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medium_jon Posted July 19, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2017 Friday, 14 July 2017, my wife's new kitchen countertops got installed. I spent Saturday working on the sink plumbing. I think there should be a special place in hell for the person that designed the clips that are supposed to hold the sink in place. Putting those things in was way worse than anything I've done on my Plymouth. On to happier things... As I mentioned before, we planned on moving the flexible brake hose bracket to the other side of the suspension from where the drum brakes connected. This was my son's job. He disconnected the existing hard brake line from the end of the hose and then removed the bracke and then the clip that holds the hose to the bracket. All pretty uneventful. Someone here doing their Scarebird conversion on a P15 commented about needing to fit a hex head into a round hole. Yep. The original hoses have round heads: But the new ones have a hex head (no picture here). So I had my son measure the widest part of the hex and find a drill bit. He settled on a 23/32 from my grandfather's tool box and set about trying to enlarge the holes in the brackets. Hmm. Big sharp drill bit into an existing hole in sheet metal. Yes, I should have given him the step bit, but I wasn't thinking. It didn't occur to me until just now. The drilling the hole larger didn't go well for him. The bit wanted to rip into the metal bracket and then turn the drill as the bracket was in a vise. He, sigh, decided to reverse the motor and was slowly grinding the hole larger when I went to check on him. I asked if I could try and switched the motor to forward and used the slightest pressure to drill the hold larger. He said, "I guess I'm not experienced enough to know that." Okay. Here are the brackets and the new hoses with and without the clip to hold them in place. Next up was mounting the brackets. I got him a center punch and a pilot bit and the correct bit (I forget). He drilled the first hole, I went and found the necessary tap from my grandfather's tool box. We couldn't get the tap to work properly in the space we had so I had him (don't tell grampa) put it in the drill and try to go back and forth. I walked away. He got the brackets mounted and I don't want to know how well threaded those holes are or how bad of condition that tap might be -- I have more. Now the final position of the hose and bracket on the passenger side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medium_jon Posted July 19, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2017 For this project, I am taking responsibility of mounting the new master cylinder. It is actually going pretty well. I chose a Wilwood 260-7563 1" Bore Tandem Master Cylinder that I purchased from Amazon.com http://a.co/ixXG5zr for $147.42. When I ordered my Scarebird kit I also ordered their $36 hunk of metal they call a WWD. https://scarebird.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=123 I'm glad I did. I'm not a metalsmith nor a great mechanic. There is nothing I can't do on a house so I just did a bunch of studying. I opted to take the route of using the original master cylinder as the mount for the WWD to mount the master cylinder. Mounted it looks like that. Here is how I got to that... On the flat side of the Scarebird WWD bracket, I scored a line 3.5" from the far end of the bracket. Then on that line drilled two holes to align with the center of the plug hole on existing master cylinder. Pretty easy with the existing master in my hand as my center punch fit down the bolt holes. For me, this 3.5 seems like the perfect spacing. I would have liked to have had the two master cylinders a touch closer together, but then the corner of the Scarebird WWD would have interfered with the third bolt on the original master cylinder, and then some other things. I didn't think I wanted to try to cut that plate. Next up was figuring how to handle the proportioning valve. For this I opted for a Wilwood Combination Proportioning Valve: http://www.wilwood.com/Search/PartNoSearch.aspx?q=260-11179 I would have liked to have used one of their mounting brackets, but they don't fit that master cylinder and no other master cylinder fits the Scarebird WWD and I already said I don't do metal. Actually, my son has done more welding than I have. I've always wanted to learn and now that he did this... http://www.newsadvance.com/news/local/putting-metal-to-the-pedal-students-build-bikes-at-vector/article_b7ac2c60-68ef-11e7-9d02-7b60edfbb73a.html ...he wants me to buy a metal lathe and a welder. Sigh. I already bought him (us) the Plymouth. Back to the topic at hand. Since I couldn't use the Wilwood mount, I wanted to figure out how to mount it to the Scarebird WWD. I move it around the plate and looked at places where I could mount it for access and where the original master cylinder wouldn't get in the way. Seemed to be a total of 2 good places. I put the 'lower' hole 4.5 inches from the front edge and 3/4" from the bottom. Again, I used a punch (well a nail set as my centering punch wouldn't fit) to mark the second hole. Because that second top / front hole has the original master cylinder just a little bit behind the whole, I opted to tap that hole. It needs a 5/16-18 threads for the 2" bolts I used. That is my grandfather's tap and tap holder (what is that tool's proper name). My grandfather George Leo Affert was a tool and die maker for Borg Warner / Warner Gear in Muncie, Indiana. That is the same factory where they made the 'famous' Muncie transmissions. I'm rather proud of that heritage. The bits in his box are still mighty sharp... Those were made from drilling the two big holes in that plate. That is a 5/16-18 locking nut for comparison. That nut holds the proportioning valve in place in the non-threaded hole. Question, does it really matter if that valve knob is up or down. I initially had it up (turning the valve 180°) and I'm pretty sure it would almost be reachable through the access plate in the floor, but the order of the brake lines would be weird: Back in front, front in back. This way they all make sense, and it won't be horrible to adjust the valve. And all the brake lines will be above the bottom of the frame -- seems safer. And if I bump the knob, well I won't have the knob. I'll probably take it off after getting the brakes adjusted. Make sense? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgeb4ya Posted July 19, 2017 Report Share Posted July 19, 2017 If the caliper outboard brake pads are slightly loose and can be wiggled when installed in the brake caliper the pads can rattle or click when braking forward or backward. To prevent that........... with the pad removed use a hammer to slightly bend inward the two top retaining tangs soas to make the pad fit firmly into the outboard side of the caliper. Then there is no need for pad GOOP. It's not necessary with top quality pads and careful installation. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Roberts Posted July 19, 2017 Report Share Posted July 19, 2017 3 hours ago, Dodgeb4ya said: If the caliper outboard brake pads are slightly loose and can be wiggled when installed in the brake caliper the pads can rattle or click when braking forward or backward. To prevent that........... with the pad removed use a hammer to slightly bend inward the two top retaining tangs soas to make the pad fit firmly into the outboard side of the caliper. Then there is no need for pad GOOP. It's not necessary with top quality pads and careful installation. It has been many years since I have made a living installing brakes back when disk brakes were just becoming very popular . Back then I would put the goop on every pad every time . If I didn't use the goop , very often the noise was a very terrible screech , not just a rattle or a click . Perhaps times have changed and parts have improved . Of course all sound is vibration . Does anyone else still use the goop ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MackTheFinger Posted July 19, 2017 Report Share Posted July 19, 2017 (edited) @medium_jon Thanks for posting all this. It's good to see young guys, both you and your son from my perspective ; interested in older vehicles. @Jerry Roberts I have a bottle of brake pad goop like the one pictured but I haven't actually used any in a long time. As Dodgeb4ya says, it doesn't seem necessary. I don't know if it's brake pad composition or fit but I haven't had the squealing problem you mention in years. Edited July 19, 2017 by MackTheFinger speling 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medium_jon Posted July 19, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2017 5 hours ago, MackTheFinger said: It's good to see young guys, both you and your son from my perspective ; interested in older vehicles. @MackTheFinger Age is relative. Glad to see you active on this forum. I'm going to be in your fine state of Missouri (Columbia) from July 30-Aug 2nd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MackTheFinger Posted July 19, 2017 Report Share Posted July 19, 2017 12 minutes ago, medium_jon said: @MackTheFinger Age is relative. Glad to see you active on this forum. I'm going to be in your fine state of Missouri (Columbia) from July 30-Aug 2nd. Thanks, Jon! You're right, age is relative.. Hope you have a good, safe trip to Columbia!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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