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Time for an overhaul...


thebeebe5

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6 hours ago, Frank Elder said:

You work in this shop so I'm sure you've seen a lot of machining.......has anyone taken the pump body after it is apart and done a port and polish like on a combustion chamber? Deburred, smoothed out for a better flow...that with your bearing mod would really improve the flow, or at least in my mind. And before one of you guys pipes up with thats not needed.....thats not the issue at hand. Thank you.

 

Ha ha!  Sweet!   Would look cool on a blueprint sheet.  :D

Nope.   Have never seen that.  Not sure how much gains could be realized if you tried, but as you already know, completely unnecessary.  

This pump was actually rebuilt at Kellogg Automotive in Maricopa AZ.   All they do is water pumps.  And they did a fantastic job with a quick turn around. I suppose I could have tried it, but it would have been a first time, and I'd rather trust it to them.  The whole guts have been replaced.  They kept it Mopar with a NOS Chrysler impeller from another application and a different shaft to fit the bearing they installed. It turns beautifully, and now maintenance free!

Of to my real job, but I'll be thinking about how to massage a water pump short turn for improved flow all day now...  :rolleyes:  

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  • 2 weeks later...

Progress this week:  mains are done. Spot on at 2.407"

 

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And cylinders are roughed in and within 3 mil of being done (@3.147") so pistons can be ordered at this point.  The cylinders were in pretty bad condition having a maximum of 0.025" taper from top to bottom.  It's no wonder this motor ran so poorly....  Seems a ridge reamer had been used in the past, and Pat (the machiiist) hates to fix cylinders after a ridge reamer has been used on them. It makes getting the cylinders all perfect a real chore because the factory bore is no longer available to be used as a guide when the "ridge" has been wiped out.  Still, it's just short of a finish hone from being done.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Quick update...  

Checked block deck.  It's flat and will probably run with it without a clean up cut rather than pulling 21 head studs out.... :mellow:

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Rod small ends are bored nice and square now.  Ordered a custom set of Crower bushings and will use a set of piston pins from a Ford modular engine since there are extras at the shop.  Still have not resized the big ends yet because we only just settled on replacement ARP bolts.  Initially were going to use the 351 Cleveland bolts I'd pictured earlier, but it seems bolts from an FE will fit better.  Should get that done this week.

Started to fill out a JE custom piston order form, but still need some bits of info like rod length (not until the resize is done).  Also wondering if Cometic can make up a thin copper head  gasket rather than the 0.075" gasket that is in the FelPro  gasket set I have.  Shooting for a quench of 0.035-0.040".  If I cannot get a thinner head  gasket I'll have the pistons made a bit taller to squeeze that quench a bit.

Rebuilt the oil pump with an NOS pump housing.  Gears look pretty good, so it should be ready.  Cleaned more parts and painted a few as well.  Road draft tube is nice and shiny now.  Send a few parts to get powder coated like the fan, oil filler tube and pulleys.  Also took the shifter apart and having the trans top plate and shifter done in a gloss black.  Will likely take the air cleaner as well, but haven't dug that far into the remaining parts to be cleaned yet.  

 

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Next up:  starter and generator rebuild, neither of which I have done before.  Should be interesting...  

Might have gotten to one or the other of those, but we spent the morning converting the shop’s old metal halide light fixtures to LED.  Wow, what a difference!!!  

 

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Pat got to the rod resizing this week.  Small ends were already done and the custom bushings are all lined up in the freezer awaiting their new home on Monday. 

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For anyone interested, the replacement ARP rod bolts are for a Ford FE engine and I believe were drop in with no modification required save a very slight grind to the bolt head to get it to slide home.

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AND the gasket kit arrived so I was able to button up the transmission... 

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Rods are being finished this morning. Pat installed the custom pin bushings and honed them to fit the pin with a 0.0005"  oil  clearance. He's balancing them now.   There was up to a 7g difference just in the rod big end weights. Once the big ends are done he'll move to the small ends.  

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He also had a bit of trouble with rod No2.  Initially I'd thought perhaps this motor had never been rebuilt.  As I've gotten into it though it was apparent that prior work had been done.  One thing that happened during reassembly during a prior rebuild was that one of the square(ish) headed rod bolts was installed a bit crooked in its rod hole.   Rather than straightening the bolt prior to cap installation the assembler simply torqued the bolt which dug a gouge in the rod and pulled the cap 0.004" to the side rendering the bearing bore no longer round.  Didn't seem to be a real problem though as there was no unusual wear at rod journal No2, but Pat won't finish a rod like that....  he's made it as close as he can get it now withought sourcing another replacement rod.    Think it's about .5 mil out now, hardly enough to cause an issue.  

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And hopefully by the end of the day we'll have the main and rod sizes measured with bearings installed so the crank grinder can be told to what size the bearings need to be turned.  Shooting for a 0.0015"-0.0020"  oil clearance.

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Just finished the thread so far and very informative, especially liked the pics of the machinist line boring........this type of thing very few of us would ever get to see so many thanks...........have a question regarding the rod bolts, you mentioned they are FE Frod which is fine but there was no mention of the specialised spring washers that some of these engines have used, these washers are a smaller diameter than normal and fit into a recess machined into the big end cap...........did your engine not have these?.......they were the subject of quite a bit of discussion in another thread a little while ago..........anyway this is a very good thread, thanks & regards, Andy Douglas  

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On 9/12/2017 at 3:40 PM, Frank Elder said:

Your man does quality work.

He does indeed. 

On 9/12/2017 at 6:30 PM, Andydodge said:

Just finished the thread so far and very informative, especially liked the pics of the machinist line boring........this type of thing very few of us would ever get to see so many thanks...........have a question regarding the rod bolts, you mentioned they are FE Frod which is fine but there was no mention of the specialised spring washers that some of these engines have used, these washers are a smaller diameter than normal and fit into a recess machined into the big end cap...........did your engine not have these?.......they were the subject of quite a bit of discussion in another thread a little while ago..........anyway this is a very good thread, thanks & regards, Andy Douglas  

AD,

I've always been enamored with the process myself   Glad to be able to share.   I realize that some of this "overboard" process is not done my many, and certainly an engine can do fine in skipping some of these steps, but pretty much every motor built here goes through the same steps.   Absolutely everything is checked, and on an older enginelike this if there's a modern improvement that can be employed (zero decking, balancing, proper quench set up, custom bits like the pins/pistons I'll be using) it gets done.  

Nope.  No spring washers on these when I disassembled.   They were castleated nuts with cotter pins.  The only reason we changed them was because the caps did not fit the rod bolts snuggly and thus wouldn't torque in the same position repeatedly, otherwise I'd have put it right back together with the originals. 

On 9/12/2017 at 8:22 PM, Frank Elder said:

Are you going to Shot peen the rods?

 

http://www.engineeredabrasives.com/what-is-shot-peening.html

Not at this point.  Would have to resize again to do it now.  Not sure if they need it....   i spoke with Tom Langdon last night and he felt they should be done especially with the bolt change, but the sizing has already been done. I'll discuss with the machinist this weekend, but we'll likely run it as is. Edit: definitely no shot peening needed. It's not a process he has ever found to be required and has not seen any rod failures that could have been attributed to lack of shot peening in literally thousands of stock rod rebuild/resize processes. 

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Got the JE piston order form done today.   That's about all.  My 50th birthday, and I'm not working in the shop ALL DAY!!  ;)  And I'm away from the shop for the next two weekends.  At this point if we get the pistons ordered and the crank journals spec'd for the grinder while I'm away I'll be in great shape in the next few weeks as the last of the "big parts" come in. 

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First "issue". Pat was torquing the mains with bearings installed to determine main bearing journal size for the crank grinder and found 0.001" taper in the front main bearing. Upon removal it was noted that one edge of one half of the bearing had a bump that caused the bearing to torque up at an angle. Not good.  Would have certainly been an issue with a 0.0015" oil clearance.  This bump could have been machined out of the bearing shell half, but there did not appear to be enough material on the short side to provide the required crush to keep the bearing from spinning.  Could have been seriously bad if it hadn't been checked.  Contacted Bernbaum's and a replacemenet should go out soon. 

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46 minutes ago, thebeebe5 said:

First "issue". Pat was torquing the mains with bearings installed to determine main bearing journal size for the crank grinder and found 0.001" taper in the front main bearing. Upon removal it was noted that one edge of one half of the bearing had a bump that caused the bearing to torque up at an angle. Not good.  Would have certainly been an issue with a 0.0015" oil clearance.  This bump could have been machined out of the bearing shell half, but there did not appear to be enough material on the short side to provide the required crush to keep the bearing from spinning.  Could have been seriously bad if it hadn't been checked.  Contacted Bernbaum's and a replacemenet should go out soon. 

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If I have an engine currently in the machine shop, is it standard procedure for machine shops to check for this taper.  How would I go about asking for verification on them checking this.  

One of the main things I've requested on my rebuilt engine is that it's leak free.  

Need to keep the wife happy and looking to get our home concrete redone soon.  

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On 9/20/2017 at 10:26 AM, 40desoto said:

If I have an engine currently in the machine shop, is it standard procedure for machine shops to check for this taper.  How would I go about asking for verification on them checking this.  

One of the main things I've requested on my rebuilt engine is that it's leak free.  

Need to keep the wife happy and looking to get our home concrete redone soon.  

It is 100% standard at this shop.  They do this on every engine prior to spec'ing the crank journal sizes so a precise oil relief can be established upon assembly.  If the shop is assembling the motor  I would expect that they torque up the bearings pre-install to make sure they fit properly and verify the crank grind will allow proper oiling.   You can always ask them, too.  A good shop should be approachable and appreciate that you're wanting to learn a bit about the process.  

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  • 3 weeks later...

Well, my pistons arrived from JE....  Anyone see a problem compared to my custom piston order form above...?  :angry:

They also sent pins and billed me for them, and I specifically marked no pins.....  

These will be going back tomorrow, but Pat won't be able to final hone the cylinders until he has pistons in hand.

It's always something.....  <_<

Got a replacement #1 main bearing from Bernbaum.  They sent a single NOS which will work fine, but when torqued up that main came in at 0.0005" smaller than the other three mains. No problem at all,  We just asked the crank grinder to grind main journal No 1 a half a mil smaller than the other three to maintain a consistent 0.002" oil clearance for every main.   This is precisely the reason to order bearings first and find out what you need your journals ground to for proper oil relief. 

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Finally back at it today after two weekends away.  Got the generator all pained up this morning.   It's drying now.  While the paint dried I set up the armature in the lathe and checked run out of the commutator.  Manual says to turn it if runout is over 2 mil.   This one came in at only 1 mil, but heck.... it's already in the lathe.  May as well make it perfect.  

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I checked valve to stem clearance for both intake and exhaust valve guides.  New valves felt a bit loose in the guide, but the only way to tell is to do a direct measurement.  I found the intakes to have a taper from 0.005" at the top of the guide to 0.003" down at the bottom.   

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The exhaust guides came in at over 0.008", so all the guides are worn out of spec.  

 

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I'll be reaming the currently installed guides and installing a silicone bronze liner in each guide today.

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Finally feel like I'm doing something besides cleaning, blasting and measuring parts.  

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Got the generator completed today.   Took the armature to Copperstate  Alternator in Phoenix and they checked it out.  No shorts.  Perfect.   Turns out the brushes that were in it were way too narrow for the brush holders.  They also got me a replacement sealed bearing, so I'll only have to keep the bushing end lubed.  Got appropriate sized brushes installed, everything all painted up and fingers crossed it charges correctly.  

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Now I can start on the starter or finish honing the valve guides.

 

i think I'll go to lunch.....  :D

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Finished valve guide honing.  Intakes at about 1.4 mil, exhaust at about 1.8 mil.  I'm not the greatest at the honing process, but I'm learning. One exhaust came in at 2mil.  One intake came in at 1.6mil.   Suits me.  Should run just fine. 

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On October 7, 2017 at 2:22 PM, thebeebe5 said:

Finally back at it today after two weekends away.  Got the generator all pained up this morning.   It's drying now.  While the paint dried I set up the armature in the lathe and checked run out of the commutator.  Manual says to turn it if runout is over 2 mil.   This one came in at only 1 mil, but heck.... it's already in the lathe.  May as well make it perfect.  

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I checked valve to stem clearance for both intake and exhaust valve guides.  Nee valves felt a bit loose in the guide, but the only way to tell is to do a direct measurement.  I found the intakes to have a taper from 0.005" at the top of the guide to 0.003" down at the bottom.   

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The exhaust guides came in at over 0.008", so all the guides are worn out of spec.  

 

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I'll be reaming the currently installed guides and installing a silicone bronze liner in each guide today.

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Finally feel like I'm doing something besides cleaning, blasting and measuring parts.  

Have really enjoyed your post, great pictures. I would recommend using a 4 jaw chuck, and indicating that end of the armature in. A 3 jaw chuck does not run concentric, and will give you a false, inaccurate reading.

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Got all the valves filed and ready to install once the seats are cut and the valve angles ground on the valves themselves.  These McQauy Norris "inlet" valves needed the most attention at the stem.   Their number embossing swagged a good amount of metal around the stamp and made the valves tight in the guides.  All valves get checked for this and filed gently with an old file so as to not aggressively remove material on the stem.  Objective, reduce friction caused by metal displacement due to model number stamping.  Shiny spots around letters are where material was removed. 

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3 hours ago, Mike36 said:

Have really enjoyed your post, great pictures. I would recommend using a 4 jaw chuck, and indicating that end of the armature in. A 3 jaw chuck does not run concentric, and will give you a false, inaccurate reading.

Glad someone is reading it, Mike.  Thanks!  

Yeah... the 4-jaw.  :mellow:

I'd rather have coffee with my mother-in-law....  :D

Don't get me completely wrong;  I use it.  Have to when I index bellhousings because I have to make offset dowel pins, but it sure ain't my favorite.  Didn't really think of it for this turn.  I buried the armature end in the three jaw, ran the live center in to support the free end, read a runout at the commutator and turned it.  I did have the armature in and out of the chuck two additional times and checked a runout each time and it was zero after that first turn.  Not too worried about it.

 

I got the starter apart before leaving for the day.  Think I may have found at least part of an explanation for my slow starter cranking....  Someone brazed up the starter contact under the button, and it appears to be a rather poor contact.  I'll look for proper replacements or figure some other fix....

 

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13 minutes ago, thebeebe5 said:

Glad someone is reading it, Mike.  Thanks!  

Yeah... the 4-jaw.  :mellow:

I'd rather have coffee with my mother-in-law....  :D

Don't get me completely wrong;  I use it.  Have to when I index bellhousings because I have to make offset dowel pins, but it sure ain't my favorite.  Didn't really think of it for this turn.  I buried the armature end in the three jaw, ran the live center in to support the free end, read a runout at the commutator and turned it.  I did have the armature in and out of the chuck two additional times and checked a runout each time and it was zero after that first turn.  Not too worried about it.

 

I got the starter apart before leaving for the day.  Think I may have found at least part of an explanation for my slow starter cranking....  Someone brazed up the starter contact under the button, and it appears to be a rather poor contact.  I'll look for proper replacements or figure some other fix....

 

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You're doing a great job ! I just mentioned the 4 jaw so you wouldn't machine something critical in a 3 jaw and get in trouble. While I'm sure you know better, some of the guys on here might not. Ok, I'm done. Carry on you're doing a dandy job.

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Progress this morning.  Only had 1/2 day to work on the car.  Wife's broken clothes dryer and son's symphony visit tonight are priority.

Got the starter body painted today.  I'll finish it next weekend I hope. 
 

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Here's a view of the starting seat condition. 

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Starting with the exhaust seats the first order of business was to cut a 30° and a 55° angle until I just got a complete circumferential cut around each seat.  Then I cut a 45° which will be the main contact patch for the actual valve sealing surface. All of these were a bit off center so it took a little effort to get all three angles and the final 45° done, but here's a look at one. Once I had a smooth seat surface all the way around I colored all the seats with a black sharpie and went back with the 30° stone and just barely touched the seat (forgot pics at this point).  I was wanting to see how far out to the edge of the valve my 45° came.  The boss can see what he needs to see at this point.  For me it was hard  to tell, so I lapped with a coarse compound so it'd be glaringly obvious.  Looks like I could open that seat up with the 45° another millimeter or so.  But, out of time today.  

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