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amp gauge not working/battery not charging


CLOVER53

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So I had my starter rebuilt and got that working ok but now the battery dose not charge.i can get the car started after charging with a battery charger.I can drive it around but as soon as i shut the car off it will not start. No clicking or anything.Every thing worked fine before the starter issue but now im wondering if I shorted something out when i was messing with the starter. my dumbass forgot to unhook the battery and i think i shorted out the amp gauge. In other words dose the amp gauge create a circuit acting like a fuse? could this be the reason the battery dose not charge?

20160730_161054.jpg

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First things first. Have you checked your battery to see if it will hold a charge?

Get it running again,and at a high idle remove a battery cable and see if it still runs. If it does,you need a new battery.

If it doesn't keep running you may still need a new battery,but first you are going to have to see if you can clean and adjust the points in your voltage regulator and put new bushings and brushes in your generator.

Don't forget to polarize them after getting everything back together.

That sure is a nice looking old DeSoto.

I doubt your amp gauge is part of the problem.  Seems to me if it acted as a fuse your car wouldn't start if it were shorted out/

Does it show a discharge when you turn the switch on? Does it show a discharge while the car is running. What about when the car is running and you turn on the headlights? Does the needle ever move at all?

As I wrote above,check the battery first,and the voltage regulator and generator next.

You DO have a Motors Auto Repair Manual that covers early 50's American cars that will show you how to clean the points and adjust the voltage regulator,and to polarize it if necessary,right?

 

 

Edited by knuckleharley
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thanks for your reply!!!! the amp gauge dose nothing at all as if its not even hooked up. i know it worked before thats why im so confused. i do have a repair book but some of the wording confuses me at times.ill try to unhook the battery and see what it dose.  i took the battery in to the place i got it from and thay said it was fine but ill check anyway. the generator has been gone through not to long ago so i know its good.im at my wits end.thinking of getting rid of the car.

Edited by wayne5153
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3 minutes ago, wayne5153 said:

ok unplugged the battery cable and the car dies. what dose that mean?

It means your generator isn't charging.

Since you wrote the generator has been gone through recently,I'm betting the problem is you didn't polarize it when you put it back on the car. If you don't polarize the generator and the voltage regulator when you install a new one or reinstall a rebuilt one,it won't charge.

Since you say you have a technical book you can't understand,that tells me you do NOT have a Motors Auto Repair Manual. If you did,you would understand it. They write for novice mechanics,and they have plenty of photos to visually show you what they are writing about.

Buy one that covers early 50's American cars now. When it comes in,go to the generator and voltage regulator section,and start reading and looking at the photos.. Once you do,things will become clear.

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First of all I want to say thank you for responding.I polarized regulator and generator still not charging...I dont know what is up with this f!@#$%^& thing. i am soooooo frustrated!!!! p.s i have the Desoto shop manual.

 

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28 minutes ago, wayne5153 said:

First of all I want to say thank you for responding.I polarized regulator and generator still not charging...I dont know what is up with this f!@#$%^& thing. i am soooooo frustrated!!!! p.s i have the Desoto shop manual.

 

The DeSoto shop manual is a good thing to have,but it was written for professional mechanics who already had a history of repairing these cars.

The Motors Auto Repair Manuals carefully explain everything in layman terms you can understand,and provide VERY nice and detailed photos that show you what they are writing about. They have whole sections dedicated to diagnosing mechanical or electrical problems.

We ain't talking big money or hard to find,either.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2055119.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.X1950+motors+auto+repair+manual.TRS0&_nkw=1950+motors+auto+repair+manual&_sacat=0

Edited by knuckleharley
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Wayne, don't give up. Electrical problems can be the most frustrating problem you can have on your car, but while you know there is a problem, there is no obvious sign of where it is. Like a dripping water pump or noisy bearing. Sometimes it can help to walk away for a couple of days, then tackle it again with a fresh mind. From what I'm reading, have the generator tested. Rebuilt items can fail. Like Knuckleharley said, get a Motors Repair Manual. They are for sale on EBay. Get one that covers the years of your cars. You need this. A look on the bright side, when you get this solved you will be a better mechanic! Very nice Desoto.

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6 minutes ago, DrDoctor said:

Knuckleharley,

   I’m just “free-wheelin’” here, but since he forgot to disconnect the battery, could he have a direct short directly to ground within the starter itself?

I don't know. Wouldn't that just cause the Bendix to kick in and spin?

MY big suspicion at this point is a bad ground at the voltage regulator,or stuck points in it.  Or both. Most people would be amazed at what a few passes between the point contacts with an emery board made for filing fingernails can do for a old voltage regulator that has been sitting around for decades.

Edited by knuckleharley
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Knuckleharley,

   I don’t know if the Bendix would continue to spin, or not. Honestly, I’m just throwing things out there seeing if anything sticks to the wall. I’ve heard of the emery board maneuver, but have never done it myself. I have adjusted the points within a voltage regulator on a ’56 Chevy convertible back in 1967, with not-so-great results—I wound up buying a new one. As such, I haven’t messed with the inside too much since then, since I obviously didn’t/don’t know what I’m doing in there.

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1 minute ago, Mike36 said:

Wayne, don't give up. Electrical problems can be the most frustrating problem you can have on your car, but while you know there is a problem, there is no obvious sign of where it is. Like a dripping water pump or noisy bearing. Sometimes it can help to walk away for a couple of days, then tackle it again with a fresh mind. From what I'm reading, have the generator tested. Rebuilt items can fail. Like Knuckleharley said, get a Motors Repair Manual. They are for sale on EBay. Get one that covers the years of your cars. You need this. A look on the bright side, when you get this solved you will be a better mechanic! Very nice Desoto.

thank you.......... my 53 plymouth has never given me as much trouble. most of the stuff on the desoto has been rebuilt

2016-01-10 16.02.09.jpg

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Very nice Plymouth too. The mechanics on your 2 cars are very similar. What you learn fixing your Desoto may help you on your Plymouth someday. 

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Thanks!!!! yeah Iv turned almost every nut and bolt on the plymouth but the desoto seems overly engineered at times. the plymouth is a lot more simple to work on. luckily the plymouth was already converted to 12v before i bought it.Iv also owned it a lot longer.the desoto is so OG i don't want to alter it to much.

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I think you guys are missing a key piece of information here. The Ammeter worked before removing the starter, and now it doesn't show current flow in either direction. If it were a generator/regulator problem it would at least show discharge with key on, lights on,  brake applied, etc. 

I suspect that there is a wire that didn't get reconnected properly. Although if the power wire to the ammeter is disconnected then how can the engine be started by the key??? Doesn't the key switch get power from the ammeter? 

Either way I suspect a bad/missing connection with the ammeter circuit since the previous repair.  

If you have a volt meter check to see if you have voltage at the B, or Battery, terminal of your voltage regulator. If not than you will have to backtrack to the ammeter terminals, or back to what supplies that, to find where you are loosing your connection. 

Edited by Merle Coggins
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4 hours ago, Merle Coggins said:

I think you guys are missing a key piece of information here. The Ammeter worked before removing the starter, and now it doesn't show current flow in either direction. If it were a generator/regulator problem it would at least show discharge with key on, lights on,  brake applied, etc. 

 

Not if the points were stuck in the voltage regulator.

The simple test for this is to remove the cover,and visually inspect the contacts to see if it looks like they have been sticking or are burnt. If they look rough,you can take a emery board to file them clean,and then then regulator will usually work  To do the job right you need an accurate ammeter gauge you can connect under the hood so you can adjust the points in the regulator so it's putting out the proper charge at idle.

Don't forget to check that the charge rate drops off as the battery reaches full charge. One set of points inside the regulator is dedicated to cutting back the charge rate when it receives a full charge rate from the battery. Having a charging system that charges at a full rate all the time is a recipe for a battery explosion and maybe a car fire.

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On 5/14/2017 at 11:00 AM, knuckleharley said:

Not if the points were stuck in the voltage regulator.

The simple test for this is to remove the cover,and visually inspect the contacts to see if it looks like they have been sticking or are burnt. If they look rough,you can take a emery board to file them clean,and then then regulator will usually work  To do the job right you need an accurate ammeter gauge you can connect under the hood so you can adjust the points in the regulator so it's putting out the proper charge at idle.

Don't forget to check that the charge rate drops off as the battery reaches full charge. One set of points inside the regulator is dedicated to cutting back the charge rate when it receives a full charge rate from the battery. Having a charging system that charges at a full rate all the time is a recipe for a battery explosion and maybe a car fire.

i want to say thank you for your help.i don't get a lot of time to work on my cars. So i'll have to get back to it on the weekend.i will keep you all posted. Again THANK YOU for taking the time out of your day to help a fellow enthusiast.It is truly appreciated.

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34 minutes ago, wayne5153 said:

i want to say thank you for your help.i don't get a lot of time to work on my cars. So i'll have to get back to it on the weekend.i will keep you all posted. Again THANK YOU for taking the time out of your day to help a fellow enthusiast.It is truly appreciated.

Thanks,but  none of us are born knowing this stuff. We all learned from others and from bitter experiences as we went along.  Helping someone else is just paying back.

BTW,when/if you adjust your voltage regulator,make sure you have your headights,heater blower,and radio on to make sure your system is charging enough to keep your battery charged with all the electrical systems working at once. You may not drive it much at night in the winter,but it sure is nice to know you could if you needed to.

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I would have replaced the charging system with a one wire altenator by now.  Eliminates about half the cars wiring for one thing and doubles the amps.

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30 minutes ago, jhm1mc13 said:

I had generator/regulator problems.  Did some math ($) and switched to an alternator.   End of issue.   The main thing that makes modern cars so reliable is good electronics.  If you plan to drive a lot it's the way to go.

Jim M

Yet people drove cars with generators for decades with no problems.

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