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The Rusty DeSoto Lawn Ornament


51custom

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ETA: this will be my build thread for my 1951 DeSoto....join along for the ride.

 

 

Hey everyone,

I have a couple questions regarding my 51 DeSoto.

1.) Rust Repair:  I have been slowly disassembling this car for a little over a week now and i have been discovering all sorts of fun rust pockets as i continue to dig deeper.  The Frame (so far) is solid and appears to be straight.  The car was in an accident sometime in the 1980's and was effectively left as such.  I have found rust on both rockers (inner and Outer) the Drivers side is far worse than the passenger side, as i can see into the car.  Also, the floor along the drivers side is completely through including the panels at the foot-well.  The passenger side is also through in the front as well.  I have all of the patch panels to complete the job.  However, here is the situation, i am a completely inexperienced welder as i have no prior training and am frankly pretty terrible at it.  Do I even attempt this or should I find a shop to complete this leg of the work?  I am not mechanically inept but i am still trying to learn.  I am however willing to learn the welding trade but i feel as if i am over my head in this one.

2.) If I am to even attempt this repair i want to remove the body and do a frame off restoration.  I want to do it right the first time.  How do i remove the body as effectively as possible in a driveway?  I have heard of the trailer jack approach.  Is it feasible to remove the body before tackling the rust or should I complete the repair before removing the body?

 

I am planning on adding pictures to this thread later today when i get home so that those that wish to see what im dealing with can get a better idea of my situation.

 

Thanks again,

Justin

 

Edited by 51custom
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Learn to weld, you'll be glad you did. Get some practice metal to try on before you actually weld on the car. There's lots of information on the internet or you could possibly take class at a local college or tech school to get the basics down.

Good luck and have fun, remember it's just a hobby not your job, step away from the project for a day or two if you get frustrated then jump back in and try again.

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3 minutes ago, Silverdome said:

Learn to weld, you'll be glad you did. Get some practice metal to try on before you actually weld on the car. There's lots of information on the internet or you could possibly take class at a local college or tech school to get the basics down.

Good luck and have fun, remember it's just a hobby not your job, step away from the project for a day or two if you get frustrated then jump back in and try again.

Will do thanks

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Sign up for a night welding course at your local community college. You will be glad you did for a number of reasons,one is that you will be able to weld new panels into your car as a part of your training,so you will save a BUNDLE by not having to buy what would probably end up being the wrong welder.

MY personal favorite is a 140 amp switchable 120-240 Volt AC-DC MIG. Don't even THINK about buying on of the cheap made in China welders. It will be full of aluminum wiring and second rate components,and you will spend more time waiting for it to cool down or burn up than you will welding with it. Look at what Miller offers,and if you can't find a Miller the size you need on sale,pay VERY careful attention to the construction details on the Miller of your choice,and buy another brand with the same features. I bought a HTP 140 AMP AC-DC MIG welder directly from HTP over 10  years ago,and am VERY happy with it. You can even buy them from Northern Tool now.

You can teach a monkey how to weld with a MIG in about a week. Basically,if you hear "eggs frying",you have it set right.

What you CAN'T teach a monkey or even an intelligent human in a week is structural strength,annealing,which type of weld is best for different purposes,characteristics  of different metals,etc,etc,etc. You will learn a lot about this stuff in a welding course,though.

https://www.google.com/search?q=htp+welders&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Don't buy one yet,though. Take the night school course and THEN buy one once you figure out what it is that YOU personally want and think you need. NOTHING beats experience.

 

BTW,even if you buy the best MIG or TIG welder in the world,you will still need a oxygen/acetylene torch set to cut steel, heat stuff using a Rosebud tip,braze,solder,and sometimes just to weld with for fun. You can do a LOT with a old torch set once you figure out different tips and different regulator pressures. For example,you can run a torch acetylene rich to put carbon back into a piece of steel that has been heated so much it has became brittle. You can also weld some VERY thin sheet steel with it once you figure out mixtures and pressures. People were using these things to hammer weld steel for probably 100 years before MIG or TIG was even thought of.

BTW,the one welder you won't need is a arc welder. Your MIG will do anything a arc welder will do as far as a home garage goes,so why spend the money twice? IIRC,my 140 AMP MIG will weld up to 1/4 inch of steel in one pass. How often do you think you will be welding steel thicker than that in your home garage?

My best advise to you on removing the body is "DON'T".  You say you have no experience doing stuff like this,and taking a body off a chassis that might have some structural issues you don't understand well enough to know where and how to brace is not a good place to start gaining this knowledge.

Besides,you can weld in all the patch panels without removing the body,so why make work for yourself unless you are doing a show-car restoration?

Edited by knuckleharley
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38 minutes ago, knuckleharley said:

Sign up for a night welding course at your local community college. You will be glad you did for a number of reasons,one is that you will be able to weld new panels into your car as a part of your training,so you will save a BUNDLE by not having to buy what would probably end up being the wrong welder.

MY personal favorite is a 140 amp switchable 120-240 Volt AC-DC MIG. Don't even THINK about buying on of the cheap made in China welders. It will be full of aluminum wiring and second rate components,and you will spend more time waiting for it to cool down or burn up than you will welding with it. Look at what Miller offers,and if you can't find a Miller the size you need on sale,pay VERY careful attention to the construction details on the Miller of your choice,and buy another brand with the same features. I bought a HTP 140 AMP AC-DC MIG welder directly from HTP over 10  years ago,and am VERY happy with it. You can even buy them from Northern Tool now.

You can teach a monkey how to weld with a MIG in about a week. Basically,if you hear "eggs frying",you have it set right.

What you CAN'T teach a monkey or even an intelligent human in a week is structural strength,annealing,which type of weld is best for different purposes,characteristics  of different metals,etc,etc,etc. You will learn a lot about this stuff in a welding course,though.

https://www.google.com/search?q=htp+welders&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Don't buy one yet,though. Take the night school course and THEN buy one once you figure out what it is that YOU personally want and think you need. NOTHING beats experience.

My best advise to you on removing the body is "DON'T".  You say you have no experience doing stuff like this,and taking a body off a chassis that might have some structural issues you don't understand well enough to know where and how to brace is not a good place to start gaining this knowledge.

Besides,you can weld in all the patch panels without removing the body,so why make work for yourself unless you are doing a show-car restoration?

I really appreciate the suggestions. In regards to taking the body off, it was more or less to clean up the frame and reseal/undercoat it and to re run all of the lines (electrical/brake/fuel). I am aware that I could do this without removing the body but I am also one of those anal retentive people unfortunately. The welder aspect, I completely understand.  I had a lincoln electric mig welder fall into my lap so I've been "learning" with that.

 

 

Also I am not going to tear anything apart Structural wise until I feel comfortable in my ability. 

Edited by 51custom
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Knuckleharley, thanks. I was going to suggest that he contact you as I have read a lot of your posts and can tell you know quite a bit and have lots of experience.

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For reference as to what I have to deal with.  If you were in my predicament and had the knowledge to accomplish the task does this look even remotely doable.  Once again I specialize in modern vehicle electronics when I'm working on cars and engines...metal work which is an art...baffles me.  I will be looking into taking classes for welding but as of right now with starting a new job soon I have no idea where that training will place me in the United States.  I'll put the metal work on hold and work on getting the fuel system up and running again.

 

Furthermore, in regards to vehicle build threads I'll probably just continue using this one as the lawn ornament title fits this car pretty well.

 

85AB4AD3-DCE0-424A-8AD0-CC65BADFE5D3_zps

As it sits currently after this weekends shenanigans involving a couple cold ones.

 

BC02EE17-9138-4975-9F77-C9D890FE1AA6_zps

Drivers side

A2DD51E7-F050-460C-81E9-91D81A311B93_zps

Drivers side under the Pedals

7701B95A-48A3-4459-91D4-94E4F1B2E65F_zps

Drivers side

1B57D08C-A190-44CE-AC86-75AEAEC85F5B_zps

Passenger Front footwell

 

06AE660F-3DAE-40DE-9EF7-252E735F84AA_zps

Drivers side from passengers viewpoint, ignore the random chair.

860E6F5D-7D7E-47A6-B992-C0FF58B70B3D_zps

Passengers Side

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As soon as I figure out how to not make my jack stands sink into my pavement like last year I'm going to drop the tank and clean it out plus install a new fuel line. The carburetor is currently being refurbished as it was well beyond an at home job.

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2 minutes ago, 51custom said:

As soon as I figure out how to not make my jack stands sink into my pavement like last year I'm going to drop the tank and clean it out plus install a new fuel line. The carburetor is currently being refurbished as it was well beyond an at home job.

Put them on plywood

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   Once again, knuckleharley are in total agreement (we’ve GOT to be alter-egos of one another . . .). He’s correct in everything he’s stated. I can only add the best reason to leave the body attached to the frame until all of the body work is completed is that this will ensure that the body doesn’t shift while repairs are made. Should that happen, you’ll have a devil of a time getting it reunited with the frame properly. Besides, frame-off repairs aren’t always necessary, unless you’re wanting a concours quality restoration. Just a tho’t . . .

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23 minutes ago, DrDoctor said:

   Once again, knuckleharley are in total agreement (we’ve GOT to be alter-egos of one another . . .). He’s correct in everything he’s stated. I can only add the best reason to leave the body attached to the frame until all of the body work is completed is that this will ensure that the body doesn’t shift while repairs are made. Should that happen, you’ll have a devil of a time getting it reunited with the frame properly. Besides, frame-off repairs aren’t always necessary, unless you’re wanting a concours quality restoration. Just a tho’t . . .

This car will never be as it was on day one.  The more I get opinions from those who are in the know the more likely the body will remain on the frame.  I will be replacing all of the rubber body mounts just as did with my old truck about a decade ago.  If I was capable of doing concours quality work I'd hope I'd know how to weld by now....hahaha

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2 hours ago, 51custom said:

As soon as I figure out how to not make my jack stands sink into my pavement like last year I'm going to drop the tank and clean it out plus install a new fuel line. The carburetor is currently being refurbished as it was well beyond an at home job.

I use flat steel plates when I am working on something out in the yard. I cut a couple years ago long enough I can even roll a jack under an axle to jack a car up and not have it sink into the dirt.  I also use short pieces of square 8 x 8 inch pilings pulled out of a scrap lumber pile where someone was building a house on pilings instead of jackstands. More stable in the dirt. I have a bunch of short sections of 2x4 and 4x4's I can set on the flat op of the piling sections to get the elevation I need.

As for your rust issues,these are old cars,and yours is typical of what is found on unrestored cars that weren't kept inside. My 42 Dodge is worse than that,and my 33 Plymouth is worse than the Dodge. The good news is floor repairs are the perfect place to start learning how to weld sheet metal repair panels,and by the time you get done welding other sections of the car won't worry you a bit. Buy some of those triangular magnets sold my Northern Tool,Eastwood,etc,etc,etc to help you hold the panels in place as you tack weld them. Use something like poster boards to make patterns for cutting the repair panels to fit.

BTW,speaking of Eastwood,they have some VERY informative videos on you tube that teaches you how to use the tools they sell to make repairs. You can learn a lot from just watching those videos and listening to the explanations they give while doing the repairs.

Edited by knuckleharley
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13 hours ago, 51custom said:

As soon as I figure out how to not make my jack stands sink into my pavement like last year I'm going to drop the tank and clean it out plus install a new fuel line. The carburetor is currently being refurbished as it was well beyond an at home job.

BTW,vinegar works great as a rust remover. Safe,too. Pour your tank a little over half full,let it sit for several hours to a whole day,and then turn it over and let the top side get soaked for a while.  If it looks like you have major flakes inside your tank,you can save time by dumping a bunch of old bolts and nuts inside the tank,and shaking it around to bust the loose scale loose.

Just make sure you don't leave vinegar in your tank more than a day before pouring it out into  a big bucket to save,and checking the inside of your tank to see if it's clean enough to coat. If not,use the vinegar for another day. Leave it in a rusty tank for too long,and the whole bottom will disappear.

Don't ask me how I know this.

Flush the tank VERY thoroughly with hot soapy water,and then coat it with gas tank sealer rated for ethanol ASAP

 

BTW,forgot to add that once you are done using the vinegar to remove rust from everything in sight,it makes an excellent weed killer. No dangerous chemicals to worry about splashing on you or getting into your well-water,either.

 

Edited by knuckleharley
vinegar as weed killer
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A good way to clean rust and scale from a gas tank is to use a farm tractor. Jack up one rear wheel and safely block tractor so it cannot fall or roll. Fasten gas tank to the elevated wheel using ratchet straps. I then put a 4 ft. Piece of 3/8 log chain and 1/2 gallon of cheap paint thinner in the tank and replace the cap. Start the tractor, put in gear, let the clutch out. Use your judgement on what gear and RPM. Open lawn chair, open cold one, sit in shade and watch your tank get very clean without sweating! I know everyone does not have access to a tractor, but those that do will find your tank cleaner with less effort. Cheers!

 

 

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21 hours ago, knuckleharley said:

Sign up for a night welding course at your local community college. You will be glad you did for a number of reasons,one is that you will be able to weld new panels into your car as a part of your training,so you will save a BUNDLE by not having to buy what would probably end up being the wrong welder.

MY personal favorite is a 140 amp switchable 120-240 Volt AC-DC MIG. Don't even THINK about buying on of the cheap made in China welders. It will be full of aluminum wiring and second rate components,and you will spend more time waiting for it to cool down or burn up than you will welding with it. Look at what Miller offers,and if you can't find a Miller the size you need on sale,pay VERY careful attention to the construction details on the Miller of your choice,and buy another brand with the same features. I bought a HTP 140 AMP AC-DC MIG welder directly from HTP over 10  years ago,and am VERY happy with it. You can even buy them from Northern Tool now.

You can teach a monkey how to weld with a MIG in about a week. Basically,if you hear "eggs frying",you have it set right.

What you CAN'T teach a monkey or even an intelligent human in a week is structural strength,annealing,which type of weld is best for different purposes,characteristics  of different metals,etc,etc,etc. You will learn a lot about this stuff in a welding course,though.

https://www.google.com/search?q=htp+welders&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Don't buy one yet,though. Take the night school course and THEN buy one once you figure out what it is that YOU personally want and think you need. NOTHING beats experience.

 

BTW,even if you buy the best MIG or TIG welder in the world,you will still need a oxygen/acetylene torch set to cut steel, heat stuff using a Rosebud tip,braze,solder,and sometimes just to weld with for fun. You can do a LOT with a old torch set once you figure out different tips and different regulator pressures. For example,you can run a torch acetylene rich to put carbon back into a piece of steel that has been heated so much it has became brittle. You can also weld some VERY thin sheet steel with it once you figure out mixtures and pressures. People were using these things to hammer weld steel for probably 100 years before MIG or TIG was even thought of.

BTW,the one welder you won't need is a arc welder. Your MIG will do anything a arc welder will do as far as a home garage goes,so why spend the money twice? IIRC,my 140 AMP MIG will weld up to 1/4 inch of steel in one pass. How often do you think you will be welding steel thicker than that in your home garage?

My best advise to you on removing the body is "DON'T".  You say you have no experience doing stuff like this,and taking a body off a chassis that might have some structural issues you don't understand well enough to know where and how to brace is not a good place to start gaining this knowledge.

Besides,you can weld in all the patch panels without removing the body,so why make work for yourself unless you are doing a show-car restoration?

I did something similar to this.  It was called ROP .  All that I had to do is sign up.  Over 6 months I got certified on 7 different processes.  Totally worth it.  It was offered at a local high school.

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   It’s tough to beat the old Ford bell axle housings for jackstands. A notch on the small end, and you’re ready to go. The 3-legged type are to flimsy, and unstable. I’ve got 2 sets of 4-legged stands, and they’re all stable. But, my favorites are a set of homemade that my dad got for me—they’re made out of 3”-diameter ½”-wall tubing welded on to a 12”x12”x½” steel plate. They look like they’d hold a house, and not topple. And, as for the “butt-bump”. . .  I do that several times before I crawl under a car, as well as grabbing hold of the car and giving it a good shake. I also take an aerosol marine horn with me, in case I have a problem, I can use it to get help.

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3 minutes ago, DrDoctor said:

   It’s tough to beat the old Ford bell axle housings for jackstands. A notch on the small end, and you’re ready to go. The 3-legged type are to flimsy, and unstable. I’ve got 2 sets of 4-legged stands, and they’re all stable. But, my favorites are a set of homemade that my dad got for me—they’re made out of 3”-diameter ½”-wall tubing welded on to a 12”x12”x½” steel plate. They look like they’d hold a house, and not topple. And, as for the “butt-bump”. . .  I do that several times before I crawl under a car, as well as grabbing hold of the car and giving it a good shake. I also take an aerosol marine horn with me, in case I have a problem, I can use it to get help.

I couldn't agree more on the 3-legged stands. They are death traps and it should be illegal to sell them. Nobody buys them but newbies,and they don't know enough to understand how dangerous they are,and this sometimes leads to being a little casual about how well they are lined up under the car.

Accidents looking for a place to happen.

About all they are good for is stuff like holding parts up off the floor so you can work on/paint them. Stuff like a rear axle housing that has already been removed from the car. I never use them on anything I have to crawl under.

Edited by knuckleharley
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9 hours ago, Don Coatney said:

My favorite jack stands are made from an old Ford rear axle. They have a round base and are less likely to sink than the 3 legged stands. I also use 4X4 wood blocks. No matter what stands I use I bump the car hard with my butt before I crawl under it.

MVC-008F.jpg

MVC-009F.jpg

I do that too!  So far the butt bumping bit must work effectively, as I am still alive to type this.  

A couple of years ago I installed a lift in my driveway.  I am over crawling on the ground.  It's getting harder to get back up!

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8 minutes ago, classiccarjack said:

I do that too!  So far the butt bumping bit must work effectively, as I am still alive to type this.  

A couple of years ago I installed a lift in my driveway.  I am over crawling on the ground.  It's getting harder to get back up!

I bought a lift for my shop about 10 years ago. I had no choice. Not flexible enough to bend over anymore,so I needed to be able to pick a car up high enough I could either sit on a stool and work on stuff like the brakes,or be able to walk under it to work on a car. I also have trouble getting down on the floor without falling because my damn knees like to surprise me occasionally by collapsing when they are bent to about a 45 degree angle,so the lift works for me in more ways than one.

I bought one with ramps I could drive or winch a car on because I can't get down to set the arms on the modern style. Have a couple of slide pieces that move up and down the ramps if I have to jack the car up off the ramps. It even rolls around if there is nothing on it and I want to move it out of my way for some reason. Now I can't believe I ever allowed myself to not have one.

Edited by knuckleharley
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1 minute ago, knuckleharley said:

I bought a lift for my shop about 10 years ago. I had no choice. Not flexible enough to bend over anymore,so I needed to be able to pick a car up high enough I could either sit on a stool and work on stuff like the brakes,or be able to walk under it to work on it because I have trouble getting down on the floor without falling because my damn knees like to surprise me occasionally by collapsing when they are bent to about a 45 degree angle.

I bought one with ramps I could drive or winch a car on because I can't get down to set the arms on the modern style. Have a coupe of slide pieces that move up and down the ramps if I have to jack the car up off the ramps. It even rolls around if there is nothing on it and I want to move it out of my way for some reason. Now I can't believe I ever allowed myself to not have one.

So true!  Once you have one, you end up having more friends too!  LOL

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Just now, classiccarjack said:

So true!  Once you have one, you end up having more friends too!  LOL

Yup,even had one guy that sold 2 parts cars I had stored at his place to the crusher come by once he heard I had it,and offered to bring his stuff over for us to drink beer and work on them.

I must have been a little rude. He hasn't been back since,and it's been years.

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