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55 Fargo Spitfire

A 833 Trans Transplant Thread

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4 hours ago, 55 Fargo Spitfire said:

 

The NWC T5 out of an S10 is good to maybe 250 ft lbs of torque, has no positive gear shift stops.....

 

There are various shifters that come with adjustable lever stops for T5s.  Mine is a Hurst but there are a bunch of brands out there.

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32 minutes ago, lonejacklarry said:

 

There are various shifters that come with adjustable lever stops for T5s.  Mine is a Hurst but there are a bunch of brands out there.

Yes there are with positive stops. Now bangin gears in a stock flathead , should not be a huge concern.

Even the T5 stock shifter would most likely be okay.

But I really don't care, who wants them or uses them as I don't... 

My concern is my A833 install....

Edited by 55 Fargo Spitfire

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4 hours ago, oldasdirt said:


Not to get into there is way more work than the A833 based on the documentation I have seen from guys like Don C.   

 

 


 

 

There is not more work when talking trucks. A simple kit and 4 new holes drilled into the bellhousing and you are good. No adapter plate needed for the T5. 

 

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9 hours ago, Young Ed said:

 

There is not more work when talking trucks. A simple kit and 4 new holes drilled into the bellhousing and you are good. No adapter plate needed for the T5. 

 

Yes and No, some clutch housings, require a hole to be welded up and then drill and tap to mount this trans.

Now all fine if you have the correct trans, IE shifter position, mechanical speedo, and gear spread, all matters to be considered.

Not that it really matters too much as I have no intention of ever using a T5.

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Hey Guys, just a suggestion, being this is a A833 Swap thread, lets focus on it, whenever possible.

Myself included, if those would like to discuss the T5 swaps fill yer boots on a T5 thread, either an existing thread or start your own...thanks

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55 Fargo

Have you determined where the A833 shifter will be in relation to your seat?  Or, maybe this is a better way to say it.....how much farther back (closer to the seat) will the A833 shifter be compared to the stock shifter location?

Your 55 Fargo cab maybe different (longer ?) than my 46 WC cab, but I'm thinking the A833 shifter may be pretty close to the seat.

And, yes I know that when using a T-5 you have some shifter location options.....but we aren't talking T-5's.

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10 minutes ago, BobK said:

55 Fargo

Have you determined where the A833 shifter will be in relation to your seat?  Or, maybe this is a better way to say it.....how much farther back (closer to the seat) will the A833 shifter be compared to the stock shifter location?

Your 55 Fargo cab maybe different (longer ?) than my 46 WC cab, but I'm thinking the A833 shifter may be pretty close to the seat.

And, yes I know that when using a T-5 you have some shifter location options.....but we aren't talking T-5's.

Closer to the driver and to the bench seat, but no issues for shifting and position.

The stock 4 spd is right on top of the trans and further ahead about 6 inches.

No problem as it would be with other transmissions with a tail shaft shifter.

Don't forget these were used in pickup trucks with bench seats (my trans is such), in Diplomat cars and in the vans there shifter is quite a bit forward on its mount.

This Hurst truck shifter works great and is built tough...

This is not something I invented, it's an AoK adapter, and 200 have been sold and many in operation all in cars and trucks with bench seats too.

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22 hours ago, 55 Fargo Spitfire said:

Jeff comparing the fluid drive might not be a good comparison, as they are sucked for off the line power at the best of times.

Now your truck is quite heavy, well at least compared to mine, you have a small stock what 218 or 230?, again not a lot of power as compared to a built 230 or later 250/265s.

 

You have the big truck trans, with a useless granny low, works okay I take it with 3.55s,  your combination with a NWC S10 as I have described would not be that great the later type might be better.

I am not trying to convince anyone on the A833 swap, in fact do not care too. I have this trans, and have owned T5s, as described, and the T5 does not hold a candle to the quality and ruggedness of the A833 in the OD lighter version and certainly no in the cat iron non overdrive version which is is in the T10 and Muncie rock crusher category.

 

Just so it is clear I determined quite a while back that doing a T5 swap is not something I am at all interested in. I would have some interest in learning about what is involved with a non OD A833 swap.

Honestly the fact I have a fluid drive 4 speed has little or nothing to do with the equation when it comes to optimum ratio selection. I typically use this as you would a non FD 4 speed and in that mode it is plenty quick off the line. Where it could be improved upon would be having two closely spread gears (2/3) instead of the third gear ratio it currently has. In other words there is too big of a jump in between  the current 3rd and 4th gear ratios. I have seen some data on non OD versions of these A833 transmissions that looked pretty good in this respect but I have never actually come across the actual item. Or heard of anyone using this particular model tranny in a truck.

Jeff

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Jeff here is a link to Passon Performance, parts, transmissions etc, Jamie is a great guy very dedicated to this trans and will answer questions too.

The A833 has a regular non 4spd trans, all cast iron 2 versions 1 super heavy duty for the likes of the 426 Hemi.

https://www.passonperformance.com/

Now the A833 1974-85, is a slightly lighter duty trans, all aluminum case for the cars and truck trans had a cast iron tailshaft, all had Hurst shifters of various types and sizes suited to intended applications.

The downside on the "cast iron non OD 4spd" is the price they are pricey, and it the class of the T10 and Muncie Rock Crusher transmissions.

Your current trans most likely from 2nd to 3rd (approx3.08) then 1.68, I have no idea why this is an issue in your case, as it is certainly not in mine, with 3.23 gears I might add.

I have a bit of an issue going from 3rd to 4th, where sometimes I might be little low on RPM say heading into the wind or going up hill in 3rd at 2500 RPM and going into 4th it may drop back to 1500 RPM at 40 mph, then acceleration might be down a bit.

Now my engine is a 228, is tired, so could be an issue too.

But 2nd to 3rd, no issues with acceleration whatsoever...

 

Edited by 55 Fargo Spitfire

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50 minutes ago, 55 Fargo Spitfire said:

Jeff here is a link to Passon Performance, parts, transmissions etc, Jamie is a great guy very dedicated to this trans and will answer questions too.

The A833 has a regular non 4spd trans, all cast iron 2 versions 1 super heavy duty for the likes of the 426 Hemi.

https://www.passonperformance.com/

Now the A833 1974-85, is a slightly lighter duty trans, all aluminum case for the cars and truck trans had a cast iron tailshaft, all had Hurst shifters of various types and sizes suited to intended applications.

The downside on the "cast iron non OD 4spd" is the price they are pricey, and it the class of the T10 and Muncie Rock Crusher transmissions.

Your current trans most likely from 2nd to 3rd (approx3.08) then 1.68, I have no idea why this is an issue in your case, as it is certainly not in mine, with 3.23 gears I might add.

I have a bit of an issue going from 3rd to 4th, where sometimes I might be little low on RPM say heading into the wind or going up hill in 3rd at 2500 RPM and going into 4th it may drop back to 1500 RPM at 40 mph, then acceleration might be down a bit.

Now my engine is a 228, is tired, so could be an issue too.

But 2nd to 3rd, no issues with acceleration whatsoever...

 

Exactly.....perhaps I didn't do a good job explaining the issue. My issue is between the current 3rd and 4th gear ratios.

And it is primarily an issue on hills and at slower speeds. The current 1st gear ratio is so low that I never use it. So in effect the gear box I have is used as a 3 speed in normal driving. 2 to 3 to 4.

Jeff

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16 hours ago, Young Ed said:

 

There is not more work when talking trucks. A simple kit and 4 new holes drilled into the bellhousing and you are good. No adapter plate needed for the T5. 

 

Yah I really am not going to turn this into a t5 thread  but I 100% do not agree with you and I have had many done in a shop I own. Both t5 conversions and A833 conversions. But as this was 55 Fargo Spitfire's thread  -  A  833  Trans Transplant Thread  let just leave it as agree to disagree

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1 hour ago, Jeff Balazs said:

Exactly.....perhaps I didn't do a good job explaining the issue. My issue is between the current 3rd and 4th gear ratios.

And it is primarily an issue on hills and at slower speeds. The current 1st gear ratio is so low that I never use it. So in effect the gear box I have is used as a 3 speed in normal driving. 2 to 3 to 4.

Jeff

Your 3.55 ratio is not up to task perhaps a 3.73 would be better, even 3.90s ...you have a heavy truck.

Now your present 3.55 diff, when shifting from 3rd to 4th (1:1) your RPM drops to 1650 approx, from 2800 RPM in 3rd.

Now if this was a 3.73 diff it would drop to 1750 in 4th (1:1), this should be fine as it is with many others on this forum. 

Your Truck is heavy, how much does it weigh?

Is your engine a bit down in power or under powered?

Merle has a 218, 4 spd and 3.73 rearend in a 108 inch WB truck, and has no issues accelerating or cruising at 65 mph...

Edited by 55 Fargo Spitfire

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14 minutes ago, 55 Fargo Spitfire said:

Your 3.55 ratio is not up to task perhaps a 3.73 would be better...you have a heavy truck

That is one way to deal with part of the situation, but only part of it. I will tell you right now the 3.55 works just fine at speeds above 50 mph. Level or hills. What would really enhance my truck and I suspect many others is to have a gear between the current 3rd and 4th. And it seems to me that there is at least one version of the A833 that is pretty much spot on this spread. Just don't have the info in front of me. As I recall it was an early variant.

Jeff

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On 1/8/2018 at 6:03 PM, oldasdirt said:

On the stock Mopar 3 speed as a reference, the splits are  1st....2.57.  2nd...1.83, 3rd...1.0
 

Which three speed the ones bolted to the flatheads or the ones contemporary with the A883?

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12 minutes ago, greg g said:

Which three speed the ones bolted to the flatheads or the ones contemporary with the A883?

Greg, there are regular 4 spd A833s, mostly muscle cars of the 60s early 70s, cast iron units, very pricey, they have much tighter gear spreads.

The overdrive versions are of 2 types, trucks .71 and cars .73, with 1st to 3rd identical on both cars and trucks.

Aftermarket gears, and trans parts can be had from Jamie Passon or Brewers...

image.png.2262a311e08bee33923bd9b48b5ccd49.png

Edited by 55 Fargo Spitfire

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Okay, so Greg G. and Merle brought up  a legit concern with going into an Overdrive, specifically with respect to diff gearing.

 

Now if you are using something like a .86 over drive, then my current 3.23 gears would be fine, but my A833 is .71, so with a tired flathead 6 it could be a cause for concern.

 

I will be doing the install of the A833 first, before considering what final gears I might need in my situation, but thinking no less than 3.55 and possibly 3.73.

 

I have no doubt with a .71 OD and 3.23 would be weak on hills and high head winds, cruising on level ground at 65-70 mph would be fine.

 

I do have a modern Mopar 8 1/4 diff open drive 3.23, new seals, bearing on the axles, drums brakes etc, so would like to keep it, and swap the crown and pinion.

 

They do not have OEM 3.73, they have 3.55 and 3.91, aftermarket has 3.73, nothing in aftermarket is all that cheap. Converting to posi is fine with it all apart...

 

So have 2 choices, if 3.23 doesn't cut it, swap in another diff, or swap gears in mine....

 

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As mentioned in a post prior Greg G and Merle menioned gearing and appropriate cruising RPM

Merle has a 3.73 and truck 4spd and Greg has a 4.11 rearend and car 3spd both non OD transmissions.

Both are happy with there combos, although 4.11 for my needs is way too low running at 60 mph and 3100 RPM is not where i want to be,  Greg is okay with his.

Now when considering  overdrive and gear ratios we need to consider cruising RPM efficiency.

Im shooting for 2000 RPM at 60 to 65 mph.

These engines are often at peak torque at 1650 rpm, so what is the lowest rpm.they should run at without bogging and being a problem...

Edited by 55 Fargo Spitfire

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You'll have to run your numbers through a gearing calculator. There are many available online. With tire diameter as a constant you can change the RPM to see what the final ratio would be, or tweek the final gear ratios to see how it will effect the RPM.

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58 minutes ago, Merle Coggins said:

You'll have to run your numbers through a gearing calculator. There are many available online. With tire diameter as a constant you can change the RPM to see what the final ratio would be, or tweek the final gear ratios to see how it will effect the RPM.

Good morning Merle

Oh i have the calculators and know what The RPMs tire size , gearing etc.

But real world data is best.

There are those who say 1800 to 2000 RPM for level ground cruising with an overdrive and those who say the powerband and optimal range is 2400 to 2800 RPM.

Im leaning towards 2000 to 2200 at 65 to 70 mph.

Below 2000 might be tough on the engine even in flat country as per aerodynamic resistance.....

 

 

 

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On 1/10/2018 at 6:06 AM, 55 Fargo Spitfire said:

Okay, so Greg G. and Merle brought up  a legit concern with going into an Overdrive, specifically with respect to diff gearing.

 

Now if you are using something like a .86 over drive, then my current 3.23 gears would be fine, but my A833 is .71, so with a tired flathead 6 it could be a cause for concern.

 

I will be doing the install of the A833 first, before considering what final gears I might need in my situation, but thinking no less than 3.55 and possibly 3.73.

 

I have no doubt with a .71 OD and 3.23 would be weak on hills and high head winds, cruising on level ground at 65-70 mph would be fine.

 

I do have a modern Mopar 8 1/4 diff open drive 3.23, new seals, bearing on the axles, drums brakes etc, so would like to keep it, and swap the crown and pinion.

 

They do not have OEM 3.73, they have 3.55 and 3.91, aftermarket has 3.73, nothing in aftermarket is all that cheap. Converting to posi is fine with it all apart...

 

So have 2 choices, if 3.23 doesn't cut it, swap in another diff, or swap gears in mine....

 

That's a lot of changes and expense just to have a 4spd O/D.  Have you thought of changing to a non O/D 4spd and not having to mess with all the other stuff?

Even if you had to purchase another trans (I understand you already have the O/D 833) I think it will still be cheaper...  What's your time worth?

 

Better gear spread with the non O/D too :)  Look at the top 833 6cyl choice in your previous attachment.  Same 3.09 1st to get you moving but the 2-3-4 splits are much better.  Keep you 3.23 rear axle and motor on....

 

Adam

Edited by Adam H P15 D30

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1 hour ago, Adam H P15 D30 said:

That's a lot of changes and expense just to have a 4spd O/D.  Have you thought of changing to a non O/D 4spd and not having to mess with all the other stuff?

Even if you had to purchase another trans (I understand you already have the O/D 833) I think it will still be cheaper...  What's your time worth?

 

Better gear spread with the non O/D too :)  Look at the top 833 6cyl choice in your previous attachment.  Same 3.09 1st to get you moving but the 2-3-4 splits are much better.  Keep you 3.23 rear axle and motor on....

 

Adam

Adam a big NO this is what has worked well in plenty of applications.

Why shouldnt it work for me..

So Adam my current trans needs to be rebuilt and I do not need or want a truck 4 spd.

I.can swap diffs or keep 3.23 gear and what get another 4 spd trans?

Adam how is that more cost effective to what already have?

Adam time? So me pulling the old trans and bolting in the A833 is more time consuming thsn installing another whatever 4 spd, Dude i dont follow that rationale.

Adam on the non OD A833, not so easy to find and they are not so cheap, unless you have 1 for me...

I had considered this but why.

At 70 mph turning 2800 rpm with my current 3.23, i dont want that.

It is common knowledge on this forum.that Overdrive conversion are truly desirable and are a great benefit.

Now as i suggested above, the focus of this thread is the A833 OD conversion.

I do not wish to discuss other options please as this project moves forward.

 

 

Edited by 55 Fargo Spitfire

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14 minutes ago, 55 Fargo Spitfire said:

I do not wish to discuss other options please as this project moves forward.

 

Your choice. Do your own thing -you own it and will drive it. I

t is your time and expense so get 'er done! ;)

DJ

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2 minutes ago, 55 Fargo Spitfire said:

Adam a big NO this is what has worked well in plenty of applications.

So Adam my current trans needs to be rebuilt and I do not need or want a truck 4 spd.

I.can swap diffs and what get another 4 spd trans? Adam how is that more cost effective to what already have?

Adam time? So me pulling the old trans and bolting in the A833 is more time consuming thsn installing another whatever 4 spd, Dude i dont follow that rationale.

Adam on the non OD A833, not so easy to find and they are not so cheap.

I had considered this but why.

At 70 mph turning 2800 rpm with my current 3.23, i dont want that.

It is common knowledge on this forum.that Overdrive conversion are truly desirable and are a great benefit.

Now as i suggested above, the focus of this thread is the A833 OD conversion.

I do not wish to discuss other options please as this project moves forward.

 

 

Please re-read my post, I think you missed my point but whatever.  The "whatever" 4spds you refer to I called 833's.  I would think the 833's for 70's 318's and 60's 6cyls would not be in high demand and wouldn't be too hard to find but I never looked....  You are correct though, overdrive conversions to get to 2800 rpm @70 are widely accepted and praised here but you are already there with a 1:1 final transmission ratio and 3.23 gears...

Driving my 49 car, which is lighter and lower than yours, with a mostly stock 230 and 3.00 gears with 26" tall rear tires proves to me that 2800 @70 is probably the sweet spot for our flatheads... without being complete DOGS.  

I don't mean this to knock down your thread in any way and since my alternative point of view seems to be disrupting it, I will not ask the hard questions any more.  Though I am interested in the final result with either your 228 or 265 (hopefully the 228 to compare apples to apples) after the trans, rear axle and driveshaft replacement to obtain your O/D.

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27 minutes ago, Adam H P15 D30 said:

Please re-read my post, I think you missed my point but whatever.  The "whatever" 4spds you refer to I called 833's.  I would think the 833's for 70's 318's and 60's 6cyls would not be in high demand and wouldn't be too hard to find but I never looked....  You are correct though, overdrive conversions to get to 2800 rpm @70 are widely accepted and praised here but you are already there with a 1:1 final transmission ratio and 3.23 gears...

Driving my 49 car, which is lighter and lower than yours, with a mostly stock 230 and 3.00 gears with 26" tall rear tires proves to me that 2800 @70 is probably the sweet spot for our flatheads... without being complete DOGS.  

I don't mean this to knock down your thread in any way and since my alternative point of view seems to be disrupting it, I will not ask the hard questions any more.  Though I am interested in the final result with either your 228 or 265 (hopefully the 228 to compare apples to apples) after the trans, rear axle and driveshaft replacement to obtain your O/D.

No I get yah and reread your post not bad stuff if I were contemplating this project, but im into it.

The USA might have and should have way more of the non overdrive A833s but Canada was a much smaller market.

2800 rpm is not hurting anything 2500 is better but im.shooting for 2000 to 2200 rpm at 65 mph.

The 228 is coming out and my Asche built 265 will be going in.

This will.have just a little more power than a stock 218....lol

Alternative views not a problem but not looking for one on this topic anymore.

Hope to pull trans soon and get rolling but its real cold and my shop while heated is cool too.. -30 last night -10 right now..

20180112_102803_resized.jpg

20180112_150202_resized.jpg

Edited by 55 Fargo Spitfire

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