Brakes Debate Thread

[55 Fargo]

Hey all,

like to start an  thread on braking systems, whether you are stock, or more modern drum, or conversions to disc.

I often think these Lockheed drum brake systems get a bad rap, and lot of people have no idea how to set them up or deal with them.

I am like a lot of other Guys on the HAMB, who like drum brakes, think they wrok great, have there positive and negative aspects, but do not resign to the fact that only disc brake conversions provide a safe and good stopping vehicle.

Beginning with a car I used to own, a 47 Chrysler Coupe, had all stock brakes, in fact the fronts were 10 inch, as the backing plates and brake drums etc, came of a 51 Dodge, the back were 11 inch stock drum, single wheel cyls, on the back and the duals up front.

At first when I rebuilt the entire brake systems, everything new or rebuilt, drums machined, and the drums needed very little to clean them up, they were well within specs.

The brakes once all was together, I adjusted the brakes as per the manual, and proceeded to bleed the brakes, using DOT 5 silicone, once the brakes were all bled, I focused my attention to the brake adjustments and kept an eye out for any leaking parts.

For the first 500 miles the brakes were so-so, they needed to wear in and seat, after about 2000 miles and further minor adjustments they were great,. I could put a front seat passenger into the windshield no problems, they stopped the car and worked very well, pedal nice and high and firm.

Now onto my 55 Fargo, stock front brakes, singles wheel cyl Lockheed style brakes, and 10 inch rear bendix self energizing modern drum brakes.

All new brake lines, hoses components and machined front drums and new rear drums. I opted to use DOT 3 brake fluid this time.

Once everything was installed, brakes bled, and the fronts adjusted, they were okay brakes, not super great in the front, again until they had a chance to wqear in and seat, they were not arced for the drums.

My front brake shoes were relined locally with a Kevlar based ling a d good quality product.

Lockheed front brakes are good, the dual wheel cyls types are better than the singles cyl type in my opinion, for the obvious reasons. The truck locks the brakes up, the truck stays nice and straight on course.

Now the disc crowd will no doubt mention the superiority of the modern disc, and the fact they have much less issue with "brake fade", but comparing a well adjusted and peak performing drums brake, might not be no worse than a disc,conversion, I am not talking about super hi-perf disc brakes with 4 piston calipers.

I am not bringing into the thread a discussion on single pot MCs versus dual MCs, that is another discussion, dual and separate MCs certainly have their merit, in the old days, some would run dual jelly jar MCs and a linkage to make it all work.

So there we have it , I am not the type to think I have to convert to disc, to get decent brakes, nor just because 2 people said it's the only way to go, but again I march to the beat of my own drum. I am very tempted to go my own route and convert my front brakes to more modern bendix type brakes, rather then do the cookie cutter disc brake conversion.

Gentlemen Start Your Engines...

 

Edited March 28, 2017 by Rockwood

[knuckleharley]

Personally,I am a fan of "run what you have that is the cheapest". Then again,all I do with my old cars is drive them at moderate speeds on the highway. I don't race them and I don't pull trailers up and down mountains,so brake fade isn't a issue to me.

If my front drums get worn to the point I have to buy new drums,I will most likely put discs up front because it's the easy,and maybe even the cheap way to go these days. Drums are getting hard to find that aren't cast in China,and even the Chinese ones are expensive. On the other hand,you can buy rotors and calipers anywhere you stop.

I am a big fan of dual outlet master cylinders,though.

Edited March 28, 2017 by knuckleharley

[plyroadking]

I ran my 40 plymouth with drums for about 70k miles till we rear-ended a guy that pulled out in front of us because we couldn't stop in time. We were in heavy traffic and the brakes were at least warm. The shoes had been replaced several months prior and had worn in good and had been recently adjusted. Also i was running radial tires.

 Part of the insurance payout went for a cookie cutter front disc kit. I liked that some day I can unbolt them and put the drums back on if I was to back to 100% original. I was alarmed when the "minor" grinding required left my steering arm mounts at half their original thickness, I've got spare spindles so someday I'll put a Scarebird kit on when the kingpins are worn out again. The improvement was remarkable, I used the original master cylinder and no check or proportioning valves. 

If the car was a weekend or occasional driver I probably wouldn't do the swap to disc, but I drive the car daily during the unsalted seasons here and usually hang out in the fast lanes.

 

[55 Fargo]

18 minutes ago, plyroadking said:

I ran my 40 plymouth with drums for about 70k miles till we rear-ended a guy that pulled out in front of us because we couldn't stop in time. We were in heavy traffic and the brakes were at least warm. The shoes had been replaced several months prior and had worn in good and had been recently adjusted. Also i was running radial tires.

 Part of the insurance payout went for a cookie cutter front disc kit. I liked that some day I can unbolt them and put the drums back on if I was to back to 100% original. I was alarmed when the "minor" grinding required left my steering arm mounts at half their original thickness, I've got spare spindles so someday I'll put a Scarebird kit on when the kingpins are worn out again. The improvement was remarkable, I used the original master cylinder and no check or proportioning valves. 

If the car was a weekend or occasional driver I probably wouldn't do the swap to disc, but I drive the car daily during the unsalted seasons here and usually hang out in the fast lanes.

 

Your stock brakes, were not up to parr? So you went to a disc conversion, now your brakes are great?

In that accident, most likely you would have hit him with your disc too, if it was super close and very fast, otherwise we wouldn't have any accidents with our modern vehicles I suppose.

Glad it is working better for you

[55 Fargo]

56 minutes ago, knuckleharley said:

Personally,I am a fan of "run what you have that is the cheapest". Then again,all I do with my old cars is drive them at moderate speeds on the highway. I don't race them and I don't pull trailers up and down mountains,so brake fade isn't a issue to me.

If my front drums get worn to the point I have to buy new drums,I will most likely put discs up front because it's the easy,and maybe even the cheap way to go these days. Drums are getting hard to find that aren't cast in China,and even the Chinese ones are expensive. On the other hand,you can buy rotors and calipers anywhere you stop.

I am a big fan of dual outlet master cylinders,though.

I can get brake shoes and drum as well as wheel cyls for my rear modern brakes anywhere, the fronts not so easy, not worried about shoes and drums on the road, a wheel cyl could blow out though.

Disc brake parts are not any easier too source than any other later model drum brakes...

Edited March 28, 2017 by Rockwood

[plyroadking]

58 minutes ago, Rockwood said:

Your stock brakes, were not up to parr? So you went to a disc conversion, now your brakes are great?

In that accident, most likely you would have hit him with your disc too, if it was super close and very fast, otherwise we wouldn't have any accidents with our modern vehicles I suppose.

Glad it is working better for you

It's hard to explain the sinking feeling of helplessness you have as you watch the car in front of you approach the front end of your car while you're mashing your break pedal to the floor and knowing you're not going to stop in time. Honestly, I believe we would have stopped in time if I had discs on it at the time. The brakes were hot and faded, I had left plenty of room to come to the next planned stop. I've had several simular close calls and was so impressed with the difference that disc kits are the first thing I buy for my cars that I've since acquired and drive regularly in rush hour traffic. 

 

[55 Fargo]

4 minutes ago, plyroadking said:

It's hard to explain the sinking feeling of helplessness you have as you watch the car in front of you approach the front end of your car while you're mashing your break pedal to the floor and knowing you're not going to stop in time. Honestly, I believe we would have stopped in time if I had discs on it at the time. The brakes were hot and faded, I had left plenty of room to come to the next planned stop. I've had several simular close calls and was so impressed with the difference that disc kits are the first thing I buy for my cars that I've since acquired and drive regularly in rush hour traffic. 

 

Are the 40 Plymouth front brakes dual wheel cyls?

Cuz on my 47 Chrysler, the brakes were as good as my then 05 Caravan with front disc brakes.

Well at least it you were okay, and you never can tell when some cell phone carrying idiot is going to cut you off and hit the brakes.

[ssnowden]

Having recently got mine back on the road see my First Drive with all gauges working post for video evidence  , I kept the original drums. I still need to bleed and adjust them more because they feel like I'm stepping on a grapefruit right now. I'm not confident in them even though everything is new except the drums. I adjusted them with the tool per the instructions in the service manual. They are better than they've ever been since I've had it, but I still wouldn't drive it in traffic yet. 

After my final round of adjustments, if I don't have significant improvement I'm going disc brakes and new MC next because the rest of the drivetrain is ready for longer trips.

[55 Fargo]

4 minutes ago, ssnowden said:

Having recently got mine back on the road see my First Drive with all gauges working post for video evidence  , I kept the original drums. I still need to bleed and adjust them more because they feel like I'm stepping on a grapefruit right now. I'm not confident in them even though everything is new except the drums. I adjusted them with the tool per the instructions in the service manual. They are better than they've ever been since I've had it, but I still wouldn't drive it in traffic yet. 

After my final round of adjustments, if I don't have significant improvement I'm going disc brakes and new MC next because the rest of the drivetrain is ready for longer trips.

Then something is wrong with your brake setup and/or adjustments, they should work great.

Did you arc the shoes to the drums after your drums were freshly machined?

If not these shoes might have to wear in a bit and be adjusted as per.

I find it odd that so many cannot get these brakes to work well, they are not as easy to set-up as Bendix type drum brakes, but they should work just as well.

You can't get em to work, then you outta buy a disc brake kit, but you should be able to drive this car with stock brakes without a worry for the most part.

How many more have not been able to set up these brakes?

 

[knuckleharley]

14 hours ago, Rockwood said:

I can get brake shoes and drum as well as wheel cyls for my rear modern brakes anywhere, the fronts not so easy, not worried about shoes and drums on the road, a wheel cyl could blow out though.

Disc brake parts are not any easier too source than any other later model drum brakes...

Ok,but if you are going to upgrade the front brakes anyhow,WHY fool with drums when it is just as cheap to run discs? I don't get it.

 

[Adam H P15 D30]

I ran drums up front for many years and I learned a thing or two:  Properly set up drum brakes that are not too hot and perfectly adjusted are ALMOST as good as disc brakes, but that's where it ends.  Problem is that drum brakes don't always stay at their best, heat and wear start diminishing performance right away.  Disc brakes are almost always perfectly adjusted and at their peak.  I had enough close calls where I live that upgrading to front discs was a no brainer

 

Adam

[55 Fargo]

7 hours ago, knuckleharley said:

Ok,but if you are going to upgrade the front brakes anyhow,WHY fool with drums when it is just as cheap to run discs? I don't get it.

 

Why not, if the parts are free or cheap, I do not see a need for disc brakes sorry..

[55 Fargo]

So far only 2 have showed up in praise and preference of a disc brake conversion.

I would like to here from those who run drum brakes and feel they work well and are safe.

[knuckleharley]

12 minutes ago, Rockwood said:

Why not, if the parts are free or cheap, I do not see a need for disc brakes sorry..

Ahhh,now you are shifting the basis of the debate from "which would you prefer/what would you do?" to "free stuff versus stuff you have to buy.

That's a no-brainer if you are working on a driver car. You go with what is the most convenient or economical.

If you were pulling a trailer often in the hills or mountains,or road racing a car,the whole focus would then shift to "what works best",or even to "what works best at a reasonable price and effort?"

[55 Fargo]

15 minutes ago, knuckleharley said:

Ahhh,now you are shifting the basis of the debate from "which would you prefer/what would you do?" to "free stuff versus stuff you have to buy.

That's a no-brainer if you are working on a driver car. You go with what is the most convenient or economical.

If you were pulling a trailer often in the hills or mountains,or road racing a car,the whole focus would then shift to "what works best",or even to "what works best at a reasonable price and effort?"

No not my motivation for the foundation of this thread, but if you think it is, okay by me.

Interesting on the HAMB, many many HAMBERs like and prefer drum brakes, for a myriad of reasons open fender hot rods, lighter builds etc, Ford trucks of the 50s, and whole lot more. But a real support for drum brakes over there.

Now another old car friend of mine locally had this to say today.

He has a 32 Chrysler with a 54 251 engine, T5 tans and 3.90 gears, all the rest stock except its a 12 volt up grade.

He has driven the car coast to coast in Canada and the USA, this summer he is off to Indiana for a meet, about a 1000 miles from here.

He says his brakes have been great and saf, they are very effective, and he is not driving 45 mph, I have been in this car and cruises at 70 mph with ease.

He once hauled a 16 foot camper trailer back from the west coast over the rockies home to Manitoba, about 1500 miles no problems.

1 of his a other builds though, a 30 something Graham, it has a 251 Mopar engine, T5 trans, but front disc, rear self energizing drums and a dual MC with power booster, so he is not against upgrades.

I hope all will share there experiences and thoughts, and Knuckle, I have no issues with whichever brakes systems people  may favor over another, what I do isn't the "best" cuz I say so, so the same gos for what others say is the "best", isn't always the fact...

Edited March 29, 2017 by Rockwood

[classiccarjack]

Is it possible to mount a booster from underneath?  Is there enough room?  Has anyone attempted this feat? I have always done "original" restoration work in the 1930-1940's....  So I honestly don't know.  Sorry for my ignorance if it has been done.

 

My 1937 ME32 Dodge Truck is being upgraded to the larger 1939 Drum brakes, using the original master cylinder, and adding a brake assist from a 1951 2 ton truck.  I was able to get the shoes relined no problem, and I had everything sleeved in stainless steel because I am lazy and only want to do this job with these heavy brakes one time. I got all new rubber hoses cheap, and the steel lines are all being scrapped for Copper-Nickel lines.  I hope that my money spent was wise...

When I was younger and dumber, and I really mean dumber!  My 1959 D100 had an all original braking system with the two half wheel cylinders up front.  I had a radical 360 in it that would put the truck sideways violently.  I was in my mid twenties then, no family, and ran VP Red in it due to its 11:1 compression ratio.  The only thing that I can say, even stopping from pushing it up over 100 constantly, is that those drums never let me down.  I towed with this truck too, the brakes never faded....  I broke 4 Differentials, 2 Transmissions, and wadded up one driveshaft and twisted it in half, at speed, and somehow traveled backwards at 80+ and survived.  Did I mention that I was young and dumb once?  Yeah...  Never again!  But the brakes worked great!  LOL. Thank God I finally grew some brain cells and grew up a bit!  And never hurt anybody!  For what it is worth, I never put one dent in that truck.....  It took a lot to admit that.  But then, this is why I am no longer careless and more careful.  I did learn from my mistakes....  

[55 Fargo]

46 - 48 Chrysler had an optional Power brake booster under floor. The imperials and T&Cs you could have this option.

I have pics at home, at work right now, but yes it was available.

I enjoyed your memoirs, and once again drum brakes can and do work well.

I say this, and am not saying they are better than disc brake, only that disc brake conversions are not the be all end all....

[Andydodge]

When its all said & done its your car so in general terms its your choice........when I 1st built my 40 Dodge with the 318 poly I installed the front stub axles & brakes from the Oz 1962 Chrysler which were essentially 1954 Plymouth brakes and the complete rear axle which I understood to be from 1955/56 Plymouths.........so still drums but later versions than the 1940 ones......it stopped but was nothing to write home about.............I then found a way to adapt Oz 11' vented discs to the front and used 1970 Oz Valiant front disc rotors mounted to the Plymouth rear axle hub and Oz Ford rear disc calipers with a dual circuit master cylinder & booster..............with the 4 wheel discs it made a huge difference to the overall braking of the car and its been a great setup since.......when I got the 41 Plymouth I was reminded of what the 4 wheel drum brake system was........it stopped but even with new linings & adjustments it was a poor comparision so, my aim was to convert it to the same setup that the Dodge has has....unfortunately I sold the car before doing this but whilst I have no doubt that drum brakes can be made to perform well I would not go back to them...............but we all have our preferences and ideas, it would be boring if it was all the same............regards, andyd   

[Adam H P15 D30]

13 hours ago, Rockwood said:

Why not, if the parts are free or cheap, I do not see a need for disc brakes sorry..

For some reason looking for "free and cheap" brake parts doesn't seem like the best idea to me????

[knuckleharley]

1 hour ago, Adam H P15 D30 said:

For some reason looking for "free and cheap" brake parts doesn't seem like the best idea to me????

I have "free" rotors,caliphers,pb booster,master cylinder,and the little block thing (can't remember what it's called right now) that goes between the MC and the chassis to route brake lines,and I plan on using all this stuff on my 37 Dodge 1 ton pu.

I'm also going to use the steering column and power steering box from that truck,as well as the PS pump,hoses,and brackets. It has a FE Ford engine in it,and so does my 37 Dodge. It's sitting on a F-250 Ford 4x4 chassis and has all the Ford mechanicals.

It's "free" because it just happens to be on a parts truck I bought to strip parts from to fix a truck I sold a few years back. Yeah,I am going to have to either rebuild or use most of it for core charges by the time it's all said and done,but the advantage is I get to adapt/test fit it all BEFORE I spend the money to buy new or the parts to rebuild it.

It really sucks to spend big bucks for something for your project car,and then find out months later when you get around to working on it that you can't make those parts work for you for some reason. Don't ask me how I know this.

When/if I ever put my 42 Dodge business coupe back on the road,chances are it will have a 55 Plymouth auto trans rear end in  it. Mostly because I happen to have a 55 Plymouth parts car that has the rear in it,as well as the at and a 230 that I MIGHT end up using in the 42.  IIRC,the rear in it now is a 4:33 ring and pinion in it,and 95 percent of my driving is open highway.

I will admit to having a NOS 3:73 ring and pinion gear for the 42,but I am pretty sure I can sell it to somebody for more than I could sell the 55 Plymouth rear,so chances are that is what will happen. I may even put the 55 auto trans in the 42 if I lose my left leg,but right now my plans are to put a 3 speed manual floor shift trans in the 42. I even already have a Hamms Beer tap to use as a shift knob. I also have the floor shift transmission that was given to me that was missing the top plate and shift lever,and a member on this board is giving me a shifter top and shift lever for it. Probably going to need a bellhousing too,but now that I will have a complete trans once the shifter top shows up,I will be able to see if I can modify a bellhousing I already have to accept the 38-39 top shift trans. Plenty of time to start worrying about that once the top comes in.

I am absolutely 100 percent certain the 42 is going to keep the original drum brakes on it,but I am also positive it is all going to be new or rebuilt,and that I am going to use a dual outlet MC. Once again,I live in flat lands,drive almost always on open roads/4 lanes,and am happy cruising along at 60-65 MPH. I WILL occasionally jump at the chance to humiliate someone with a flathead Ford V-8 if given the chance to drag race them for a short distance,but that's about it.

Edited March 30, 2017 by knuckleharley

[classiccarjack]

5 minutes ago, knuckleharley said:

I have "free" rotors,caliphers,pb booster,master cylinder,and the little block thing (can't remember what it's called right now) that goes between the MC and the chassis to route brake lines,and I plan on using all this stuff on my 37 Dodge 1 ton pu.

I'm also going to use the steering column and power steering box from that truck,as well as the PS pump,hoses,and brackets. It has a FE Ford engine in it,and so does my 37 Dodge. It's sitting on a F-250 Ford 4x4 chassis and has all the Ford mechanicals.

It's "free" because it just happens to be on a parts truck I bought to strip parts from to fix a truck I sold a few years back. Yeah,I am going to have to either rebuild or use most of it for core charges by the time it's all said and done,but the advantage is I get to adapt/test fit it all BEFORE I spend the money to buy new or the parts to rebuild it.

It really sucks to spend big bucks for something for your project car,and then find out months later when you get around to working on it that you can't make those parts work for you for some reason. Don't ask me how I know this.

When/if I ever put my 42 Dodge business coupe back on the road,chances are it will have a 55 Plymouth auto trans rear end in  it. Mostly because I happen to have a 55 Plymouth parts car that has the rear in it,as well as the at and a 230 that I MIGHT end up using in the 42.  I will admit to having a NOS 3:73 ring and pinion gear for the 42,but I am pretty sure I can sell it to somebody for more than I could sell the 55 Plymouth rear,so chances are that is what will happen. I may even put the 55 auto trans in the 42 if I lose my left leg,but right now my plans are to put a 3 speed manual floor shift trans in the 42. I even already have a Hamms Beer tap to use as a shift knob. I also have the floor shift transmission that was given to me,and a member on this board is giving me a shifter top for it. Probably going to need a bellhousing too,but now that I will have a complete trans once the shifter top shows up,I will be able to see if I can modify a bellhousing I already have to accept the 38-39 top shift trans. Plenty of time to start worrying about that once the top comes in.

I am absolutely 100 percent certain the 42 is going to keep the original drum brakes on it,but I am also positive it is all going to be new or rebuilt,and that I am going to use a dual outlet MC.

I have purchased parts and ended up not using them myself.  Mostly because I was a lemming and thought it would be easy.  Then found a better way and had new stuff to sale at half of what I paid for it....

The last car I built, I did everything ugly, drove it, worked out the bugs, and then tore it down to restore it.  I think that it was the best approach.  Assembly was fast and everything worked out perfectly!  Yay

I think that I have one of those bell housings that you have mentioned.  PM me if you like, I am sure that we can work something out cheap or trade.

[knuckleharley]

4 minutes ago, classiccarjack said:

 

The last car I built, I did everything ugly, drove it, worked out the bugs, and then tore it down to restore it.  I think that it was the best approach.  <<

I agree. For the same reasons you gave. Seems like I do something,and then end up redoing it at least 2 more times as it occurs to me there is a cleaner/better way to do it.

I understand there are some people who can modify everything in sight as they go along and have it all look new and perfect when they are done,but I don't have that ability. 

4 minutes ago, classiccarjack said:

I think that I have one of those bell housings that you have mentioned.  PM me if you like, I am sure that we can work something out cheap or trade.

Thank you,PM sent.

[ssnowden]

20 minutes ago, classiccarjack said:

I have purchased parts and ended up not using them myself.  Mostly because I was a lemming and thought it would be easy.  Then found a better way and had new stuff to sale at half of what I paid for it....

The last car I built, I did everything ugly, drove it, worked out the bugs, and then tore it down to restore it.  I think that it was the best approach.  Assembly was fast and everything worked out perfectly!  Yay

I think that I have one of those bell housings that you have mentioned.  PM me if you like, I am sure that we can work something out cheap or trade.

I couldn't agree more! I'm a first timer doing this and the best decision I've made so far was to put my P15 back together ugly and get it running, driving and reliable and not worry about cosmetics. I addressed the structural or bad rust issues to protect it from decaying. I'm having a blast driving it and to keep to this thread's topic, I just want it to stop better.  I'm hoping doing more bleeding and adjusting the drum brakes again will do the trick, but if not, I'll do the MC/disc modification.

[knuckleharley]

7 minutes ago, ssnowden said:

I couldn't agree more! I'm a first timer doing this and the best decision I've made so far was to put my P15 back together ugly and get it running, driving and reliable and not worry about cosmetics. I addressed the structural or bad rust issues to protect it from decaying. I'm having a blast driving it and to keep to this thread's topic, I just want it to stop better.  I'm hoping doing more bleeding and adjusting the drum brakes again will do the trick, but if not, I'll do the MC/disc modification.

Do what ya gotta do as ya gotta do it and can afford to do it. If there is such a thing as "extra money" I sure haven't even seen it,and when building up old cars there is never a shortage of raids on your bank accounts.

As long as you are spending all that money,you might as well be able to drive and enjoy the car while spending it.

[dale]

On my  46 plymouth I replaced the shoes  and all the wheel cylinders and master cyl..with new.  The drums were real nice shape too.. Never did get them bled properly and probably not adjusted in the rear too well.. After thinking about what could happen I installed Scarebird disc on the front after I found out I could still use the stock rims and using the stock master cyl.. It made a great improvement.   I then decided on going with the 1999 Explorer rearend with a .373 differential and disc brakes again Ive just finished that along with a firewall mounted dual master cyl  and proportioning valve combo.  and vaccum booster.  Need  to pickup a section of brakeline and it should be ready for testing..On another kinda related note I was able to convert to an emergency brake system since I lost mine when I took out the stock transmission.  Using the brake cables that fit the right and left rear disc from the explorer and another Explorer right brake cable installed backwards to the original Plymouth emergency brake and using 1/8 inch cable clamps under the frame where they meet I now have a emergency brake again.