Matt Wilson Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 Hi Folks, Can you tell me if the front-end parts from a 230 will fit (and work properly) on a big-block engine, namely the 251 or 265? What I mean by "front-end" parts are the water pump, the crankshaft pulley, the big bracket that goes between the engine mount and the frame, the timing cover and the big adapter (sheet of plate metal) that bolts to the front of the engine and attaches to the engine mount. It would also be good to know if the timing chain and sprockets are interchangeable. I've been told by some folks that these 230 parts will fit and work properly on a big-block, but other folks have told me that the big-block engines built after a certain year may not accommodate these parts, or at least not the water pump, and possibly not the other parts from the 230. The reason I'm asking is because I want to do a transplant of a 251 (or preferably a 265) into a 1949 Power Wagon, which currently has a 230 in it, and the simplest way that's been described to me is to use the 230 parts on the 251 or 265, and of course, to move the radiator 2" forward, which is a separate task. Given that another party has questioned this interchangeability for big-blocks past a certain production year, I just want to try to find the real story. Thanks! Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBNeal Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 The most definitive answer will be found in parts books and interchange manuals, unless somebody on a Power Wagon forum has done the exact same swap as you are mulling over and has more technical information 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggdad1951 Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 A call to Vintage Power Wagons might answer your question in minutes 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Wilson Posted January 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 Thanks, guys. I did call Vintage Power Wagons a few weeks ago, and they are the ones who suggested that I do the swap in this manner (using the 230 parts on the bigger engine). However, I spoke to someone else more recently, who is also very knowledgeable about Power Wagons (I don't want to mention names), and he questioned whether such interchangeability is universally true for all years of the bigger engine. I also called George Asche, and he seemed to think the water pumps were all the same, but I know the 230's and 251's in Power Wagons used different pumps, although they may be interchangeable (but not truly the "same"). I'm not sure how much George deals with Power Wagons, and it's possible that they used unique water pumps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBF Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 The water pump I got from NAPA for the 251 in my 2.5 ton was the same as the one for the 230 in my 1 ton, but there are long and short versions of the pump. I was able to make the longer version work in the 251 by having a pulley with an offset that lined up with the crank pulley and gen from a parts truck. Don't know about the other items. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgeb4ya Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 The medium duty truck 236/251/265 pump used in 1-1/2 thru 2-1/2 ton trucks use a different pump than what is used on the 218/230 engines. The by pass outlet is different.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dozerman51 Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 I just installed an IND-7(237) in my WC-12 which previously had a 230 in it. I used the front engine plate, the "Floating Power" mount, and the crank pulley from the 230. The new water pump I installed was Identical to the one on the 230. The block was boiled out and decked along with the 241CI "Spitfire head", all new Pistons, pins, bearings etc. A VPW high performance cam along with the HD valve springs was installed, the motor was balanced along with the clutch and flywheel. She purrs like a kitten and definately has more power going up moderate to steep hills that did the 230. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBF Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 The only difference that I found in the pump was the length. They both used the same gasket, and the backing plate was identical too. I would imagine one of the previous owner's had replaced the pump sometime in its 50 yrs history, so maybe that's where the initial swap was made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Wilson Posted January 8, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 On 1/5/2017 at 11:01 PM, Dozerman51 said: I just installed an IND-7(237) in my WC-12 which previously had a 230 in it. I used the front engine plate, the "Floating Power" mount, and the crank pulley from the 230. The new water pump I installed was Identical to the one on the 230. The block was boiled out and decked along with the 241CI "Spitfire head", all new Pistons, pins, bearings etc. A VPW high performance cam along with the HD valve springs was installed, the motor was balanced along with the clutch and flywheel. She purrs like a kitten and definately has more power going up moderate to steep hills that did the 230. That's good to hear, Dozerman. So I take it you used the water pump pulley from the 230 as well. And I imagine you also used the generator and its pulley and its bracket from the 230, too? What about the timing cover? I'm told that the only way to get the timing marks to be accurate is to use the crank pulley AND the timing cover from the same size engine. Presumably, you also used the big bracket that goes from the "floating power" mount to the frame, but you probably had to drill new holes in the frame, about 2" forward of the existing holes, to make it work? Finally, were you able to bolt up the 237 to the existing bellhousing and flywheel? Thanks to all for the input. I'm getting more confidence in this swap, and assuming Dozerman and others don't come back with any surprising answers, it sounds like it's really not that difficult. Probably the hardest part is figuring out what to do with the radiator, since it has to be moved forward by 2". Another option I've heard of is to mount the radiator in its current spot, and use a thin (low-profile) electric fan instead of the Dodge factory pulley-driven fan. I'd prefer not to do that, as it detracts from the under-hood appearance somewhat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Wilson Posted January 8, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 Also, I should mention that some further discussions with Vintage Power Wagons and other folks in the last couple of days have informed me that some 251's (at least some in the Power Wagons) used a casting on the front of the engine, which acts as the back end of the water pump, with the front pump casting and impeller fitting into/onto this casting. So that's altogether a different pump than the one used on the 230. However, it seems that this casting can be removed from the engine, at which point it looks preliminarily like the 230 water pump would bolt right up to the 251 block. The last part is not 100% verified yet, but my sources say this looks to be the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted January 8, 2017 Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 Radiator relocation was not that difficult. I reversed the frame and cut the bracket as pictured below. I then used double nutted all thread to establish the correct height. I did use an thermostatically controlled electric pusher fan. I had to notch the fenders to allow clearance for the radiator to drop in and the original horns had to disappear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dozerman51 Posted January 8, 2017 Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 Hi Matt, Sorry I haven't got back to you sooner. I used the Gen. mount Generator and adjusting strap from the 230 - Direct interchange. The rear of the motor bolted right up to the bellhousing. Yours should be the same. I had to use the chain case cover plate from the 230 motor as the one from the 237 was bolted to the engine support from the bottom not the top. I used the pulley from the 230 motor so it would clear the front frame engine support crossmember. On my motor installation, I just welded two 3/8" thick by 1" or so wide by 2&1/4" long steel plates over each hole in a spare floating power mount. By doing this the welded plates reached back to the original engine mount holes in the frame. I then marked the holes in the plates for drilling and I was set. No cutting or welding on the frame was needed. A real neat and clean modification. I'd post pic's of the truck here, but am not that computer savy about doing that yet. I only know how to e-mail pic's to an individual address. LOL. If you would go Joe Cimoch's "Power Wagon Forum", there are guys there that could really help you out in your Modification. have a nice day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Wilson Posted January 8, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 Hey Dozerman, no worries. I only posted my question late last night, so I think your response is pretty quick. That is some really great news about all the 230 parts fitting right up to the big block engine. Also, I had figured I might be able to adapt the 230 engine mount bracket in a manner like you describe, but it's very reassuring to hear someone say they have actually done it. One more question, if you don't mind...how did you handle your radiator situation? On the civilian Power Wagon, putting in a big block flathead requires moving the radiator forward 2", causing it to interfere with the grill, which in turn has to be moved forward by 2", where it will protrude from the front end sheet metal. I'd like to try to avoid that. Also, the radiator cap will then be in the wrong place relative to the hole in the radiator cowl sheet metal. On yours, I guess the cap is not an issue, since it doesn't protrude through the sheet metal, but I wonder about any other aspects of the radiator placement. As for Joe's forum, I have been posting over there as well, but sometimes I like to field a wider audience, especially with regard to some questions. In fact, you'll notice I have a question about the radiator situation posted there right now, but haven't gotten any assistance yet. The question was directed at Galen, since he has done a similar conversion, but I'm sure others will chime in if they have anything useful to add. Thanks again!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dozerman51 Posted January 9, 2017 Report Share Posted January 9, 2017 On the 1/2 ton military WC 4x4 you mount the Radiator on the outside of the Radiator support which gives you the 2 inches you need. Threaded rod, nuts and bolts are used to secure it to the outside of the Radiator support. Your power wagon requires a different technique. I have read something about reversing the Radiator support on the power wagon and this gives you the required 2" of clearence you need. Again I'm not sure. Don't know about how to make the Radiator neck conversion. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Wilson Posted January 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2017 Thanks, Don and Dozerman! This starts to give me some ideas. I appreciate the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dozerman51 Posted January 9, 2017 Report Share Posted January 9, 2017 Matt, One more thing. Go to the Power Wagon Forum Page and to Phil's Archive pages. The topics are listed in numerical order. topic #23 on page 2 is titled "237-265 in a FFPW W/O(without) grill extension. The subject matter was first talked about on April 17th 2007. It explains to you what you need to do to move the radiator forward 2-3". Hope this helps. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Wilson Posted January 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 On 1/8/2017 at 9:37 PM, Dozerman51 said: Matt, One more thing. Go to the Power Wagon Forum Page and to Phil's Archive pages. The topics are listed in numerical order. topic #23 on page 2 is titled "237-265 in a FFPW W/O(without) grill extension. The subject matter was first talked about on April 17th 2007. It explains to you what you need to do to move the radiator forward 2-3". Hope this helps. Great thread you referred me to! It gives me several ideas to try. I had done some searches in Phil's Archives, but I had missed that thread. Thanks for pointing me to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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