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Starter problems


51Meadowbrook

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I have. 51 Meadowbrook that's been converted over to 12 volt system. I believe my starter that's on now is a 6 volt. I'm trying to find out what 12 volt starters will fit the 230 ci straight 6 , part number or where to find one that fits would be helpful . Thanks for your input

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Your 6 volt starter will work better than fine for years. Just check it to see if it needs new bushings in the end plates or new brushes,and use it as it is unless it is not working properly and that's why you are looking for a new starter?

6 volt starters really spin up when you put 12 volts to them. The only concern is they spin so fast they got hot pretty quickly. This usually isn't a problem because they spin so fast the car starts MUCH more quickly than it did with a 6 volt battery pushing it.

Edited by knuckleharley
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42 minutes ago, 51Meadowbrook said:

Will the brushes and bushing keep it from engaging and making contact with the fly wheel ? Right now it'll spin but won't engage but if I tap with a hammer it will engage and turn the motor.

Sounds to me like it is mostly dirty/corroded inside. Take it apart and clean the part where the brushes rub with emery paper until they are shiny. Use a toothbrush or something similar to clean out the trash in the grooves on the commutator (part you just polished with emery paper). Do NOT dig out the grooves with anything sharp,and do NOT wire wheel or clean the armature (the big thing that spins) with anything but a soft brush. There is shellac on the armature to keep it from shorting out.

While you have it apart,check the feel of the armature at each end in the recesses where the bushing are. If they feel sloppy,replace the bushings,but take a good look at each end of the armature first to make sure it's not bent,obviously worn too much,or has some other defect. Check the brushes while you are at it,too. If there is any doubt at all about how worn they are,replace them. Brushes and bushings are cheap,and can be bought at almost any NAPA store. The bushings will be self-lubing.

Clean out the housing where the field cores are bolted while you are at it,but once again,do NOT screw around with the field cores themselves. They are the doo-dahs (technical term) that are obviously bolted to the inside of the main housing body.

VERY carefully put the starter back together taking care to not damage the brushes,and then use jumper cables and a battery to test it to make sure the starter drive kicks in and spins vigorously before putting it back on the car. NOW is the time to clean the connections on the body of the starter where the battery cable bolts,as well as the battery cable end itself.  Take a good look at the cable going to the starter,as well as the cables going to the battery. Clean the ground connection at the engine as well as the ends that bolt to the battery posts. If any of the cables seem to be very stiff and show signs of being brittle and/or green at either end where the wires inside the insulation are visable,replace all the cables with new one of an IDENTICAL gauge,or thicker.

Starters and generators are really pretty simple things. All this probably sounds a lot more intimidating than it really is.

 

BTW,while it is true you can continue to use your 6 volt starter,the same is not true of your 6 volt generator. No big deal because IF it is a generator and not an alternator,servicing it is identical to servicing the 6 volt generator.

If you don't already have one,immediately buy a Motors Manual from somewhere like ebay or amazon that covers your year car and then go to the starter section to learn all about how starters work and how to identify which part is what. By the time you read it you will have a perfect knowledge of what to do. The photos are very helpful.

You should also buy a factory service manual for your car. Anybody that owns a old car needs a Motors Manual that covers his year and a factory service manual that covers the year and model car he has. They will be the most important "tools" in your garage.

Edited by knuckleharley
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1 hour ago, 51Meadowbrook said:

Will the brushes and bushing keep it from engaging and making contact with the fly wheel ? Right now it'll spin but won't engage but if I tap with a hammer it will engage and turn the motor.

Sounds like a weak or bad spring on the starter drive

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8 hours ago, Branded said:

Sounds like a weak or bad spring on the starter drive

Could be that too,but if the spring were weak or bad the starter drive probably wouldn't kick in after hitting it with a hammer unless the armature was bent

Edited by knuckleharley
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What is the ring gear like on your flywheel?

If there is substantial damage then the pinion gear may have trouble meshing 100% of the time.

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12 minutes ago, 51Meadowbrook said:

Got the starter out and the armature is worn down probably from sticking once the motor started. The teeth on the  flywheel look ok. I'm guessing that the armature wasn't going back in after starting .

image.jpeg

Much easier repair than ring gear replacement, glad you found your problem.

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13 minutes ago, 51Meadowbrook said:

Got the starter out and the armature is worn down probably from sticking once the motor started. The teeth on the  flywheel look ok. I'm guessing that the armature wasn't going back in after starting .

image.jpeg

Ok,now you need to count the teeth on your starter drive,and go to your shop manual to make sure that number matches the number stated in the shop manual. These cars are old and lots of "stuff" has been done to them over the years. There is a chance the previous owner put the wrong starter in the car because he happened to have it and it fit,and he wanted to sell the car and didn't care if it was right or not.

Do NOT replace that starter drive with an identical one until you find out how many teeth your starter drive is SUPPOSED to have.

BTW,you are damn lucky if that thing hasn't chewed up the ring gear on your flywheel.

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Have you turned the motor over by hand to inspect all the ring gear teeth? Turning by the fan belt(plugs out of motor), a pry bar tooth by tooth under motor (flywheel cover removed) or through the stater mount hole to see them all.

Often just or two areas of the ring gear will be damaged and the rest look perfect. All motors seem to have a favorite spot or two to end up when turned off, damage occurs just in those locations!

Just a couple of thoughts and checks just to be 100% sure.

DJ

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1 hour ago, DJ194950 said:

Have you turned the motor over by hand to inspect all the ring gear teeth? Turning by the fan belt(plugs out of motor), a pry bar tooth by tooth under motor (flywheel cover removed) or through the stater mount hole to see them all.

Often just or two areas of the ring gear will be damaged and the rest look perfect. All motors seem to have a favorite spot or two to end up when turned off, damage occurs just in those locations!

 

DJ

I used to have a F-500 wrecker with that problem. No way in hell was I going to pull that trans if I could get out of it,so I bought a tool made specifically to turn ring gears,and kept that in the truck for the times the starter drive would hit air. I'd crawl under the truck,turn the ring gear a little,and it would start right up.

You could use a big flathead screw driver too,but the special tool was spring loaded and it wouldn't slip off and skin my knuckles.

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That looks like the right drive for your car BUT it looks like it may have never fully engaged the ring gear.  Some careful measurements are needed (as suggested above) to make sure the new drive will fully engage the ring gear.   I have seen this sort of damage before, but most often on cars where 12 volts is being used on a six volt starter which was worn out already.  Once that sort of damage starts, it advances very quickly.

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I'm surprised that the pinion gear is damaged so much, my experience is that the ring gear is damaged more readily than the pinion gear. There is a very good chance that there is some damage to the ring gear somewhere on the flywheel.

Once you replace that pinion gear and the engagement is right, what you can do to stop the pinion gear striking the damaged ring gear again, is to mark on the balancer where the ring gear is not damage, or mark where the flywheel is damaged on the balancer. Or, the more expensive option, replace the ring gear on the flywheel.

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Just a thought if you are not the original owner and have not validated the motor numbers.

You should confirm the year of the motor. My 47 truck has a 53 car block with a 57 head on it from what I can tell. I did make a hand crank to turn the motor from the front through the hole access in grill.  Not sure if your car has access to the front hub to allow this but if so it works slick.

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22 minutes ago, 51Meadowbrook said:

 Is it interchangeable with a 1951 ?

 

 

I'm far from being an expert on this but, I'm going to say no. That is likely the issue with the damage to your starter drive. I'm going to guess that the 1951 vs 1952-54 is the nose depth on the starter. The picture you supplied looks like the drive wasn't getting full engagement into the ring gear which in turn cased the damage.

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MCH 6101 is what I've found is what suppose do be on a 51 Dodge Meadowbrook D42. Might need to check the engine number to verify you have a 1951 engine. Below is where I found the starter number for 1951.

 

http://restorecarsclassifieds.com/wiki/show_pdf.pdf?n=8906

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54 minutes ago, 51Meadowbrook said:

According to PMX custom alternators and starters the 6201 and 6205 are interchangeable.

6101 is what is called for for 51

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