1947 dodge 3 on the tree

[Brad47]

Just throwing this out there to see if anyone has any suggestions so here we go . I have a 218 long block with a three on the tree ,the problem I have is first gear seems like second ? But it is first , if I have to start on a hill I am in trouble have to ride the  clutch big time it sucks. Could  it be the diff or trans problem??

thanks for any help

cheers

[knuckleharley]

Sounds to me like someone may have swapped the original rear for a more modern rear with much higher gearing.

Also,what size tires do you have on it? How tall are they?

[Brad47]

It's definitely not the stock rear which made me think gears . Haven't got a close look at the diff yet but I will try to figure out what it is . ?

thanks 

[Brad47]

Not sure on the  tires never checked . They are not very tall or at least don't look tall ? I just bought this car so I'm try to figure out how it was built and work the bugs out lol !

heres a pic of the car 

cheers

[knuckleharley]

15 minutes ago, Brad47 said:

Not sure on the  tires never checked . They are not very tall or at least don't look tall ? I just bought this car so I'm try to figure out how it was built and work the bugs out lol !

heres a pic of the car 

cheers

Very pretty car!

Looks like you might have 78 series 15 inch tires on the car. These are pretty tall tires,which effectively raises your gear ratio. If you want to keep running them,your only practical solution is to swap a lower ratio ring and pinion gear in your rear,or put a stock rear under the car. Whichever is cheaper and easier for you. I forgot what the stock rear gear ratio was,but I suspect it was in the 3:78 to 4:10 area.

[1949 Wraith]

My 1941 US Chrysler with the semi automatic came standard with a 3.54 rear end. My Canadian 1949 3 speed Dodge I believe has a 3.90 rear end. Your rear end could have be swapped out with a Chrysler to get the better highway rpms. My '49 has 215/75-15 radials and the speedo is pretty well spot on with gps speed reading, so they are a good match for the original tire size.

Are you sure you are starting out in first? First gear in these manuals are stump pullers it should be a breeze starting on a hill even if the rear end had been changed and tires are too tall. My '41 does have more horse power, but it is designed to start out in 3rd (under-drive of 4th) on level ground and it will shift into 4th at 13 mph and that is with the 3.54 rear end. Since your car is Canadian it should not have Fluid Drive, my '49 transmission will be the same as yours and you can start from a stop, on level ground, in 2nd easily.

Have you checked to make sure none of your brakes are dragging or that the park brake is fully releasing? If your car has been sitting for extended periods your  brake wheel cylinders could be sticking, causing extra drag. I would suspect something like this might be causing your car hill starting to struggle. These engines are torque monsters and should handle starting on hills in 1st even with rear end change or tall tires.

Beautiful car by the way. Congratulations on the find.

 

Edited December 29, 2016 by 1949 Goat

[Brad47]

Thank you we love the car and looked for one for a long time ! 

I am positive I am in first it just sucks lol good call on the brake drag I will investigate that and the rear end too . I also thought first gear should be a basement gear and should be able to do a smokey burn out but all it does is smoke the  clutch !!!! Lol

thanks so much for all your suggestions !! I will keep you posted

 

 

[1949 Wraith]

43 minutes ago, Brad47 said:

Thank you we love the car and looked for one for a long time ! 

I am positive I am in first it just sucks lol good call on the brake drag I will investigate that and the rear end too . I also thought first gear should be a basement gear and should be able to do a smokey burn out but all it does is smoke the  clutch !!!! Lol

thanks so much for all your suggestions !! I will keep you posted

 

 

You could have a contaminated or worn clutch as well.

 

[Brad47]

Is there any clutch  adjustment on these trannys ? I could try that first maybe the car does give a little grind when you shift gears as well 

thanks brad

[knuckleharley]

3 minutes ago, Brad47 said:

Is there any clutch  adjustment on these trannys ? I could try that first maybe the car does give a little grind when you shift gears as well 

thanks brad

yes,you can adjust the clutch.

If you are not familiar with these old 3 speed transmissions,you should know that every one of them I have ever seen will grind gears going into low gear unless you shift up to second gear before going to low gear. If your grinding is only when you go into first gear,try that first.

If you get grinding going into second or 3rd gear,you have transmission problems.

[Brad47]

It likes to grind a little on the down shift 3 to 2 is the a procedure for a proper clutch adjustment ? Try that first I guess.

 

 

[DrDoctor]

   A surgeon friend of mine had a ’46 Plymouth Special DeLuxe club coupe identical to ours – black with grey interior, except he had black steel wheels with hubcaps and trim rings, and ours has wire wheels with red spokes. In fact, when we purchased ours, we tho’t it might be his. Upon contacting him, he sold his, and he knows the purchaser still has it. Anyway, to the point – he couldn’t drive it, because he didn’t like the “3 on the tree” arrangement, and he couldn’t get used to the fact that 1^st gear wasn’t synchronized. He kept grinding the gear trying to get into 1^st while going around corners, which wasn’t going to happen. I told him repeatedly that only 2^nd and 3^rd had synchronizers. The fact that 1^st gear was unsynchronized finally made him sell it, since he didn’t like the transmission characteristics. Frankly, I find the unsynchronized 1^st gear charming – another direct connection to the past, and the type of cars in which I learned to drive. Thx.

[knuckleharley]

37 minutes ago, Brad47 said:

It likes to grind a little on the down shift 3 to 2 is the a procedure for a proper clutch adjustment ? Try that first I guess.

 

 

I guess you could try that,but it sure sounds like worn synchronizers to me.

The "good" (?) news is you can drive it for years like this if you can put up with the irritation.

If you can't,it can't cost very much to replace them. Buy a shop manual as well as a Motor's Manual

https://www.amazon.com/Motors-Auto-Repair-Manual-1935-1953/dp/B00GMII8TY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1483037135&sr=8-1&keywords=motor's+auto+repair+manual+1935-1953

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1935-1953-MOTORS-AUTO-REPAIR-MANUAL-KEEP-EM-ROLLING-16TH-EDITION-3RD-PRINTING-/122251441210?hash=item1c76c0f43a:g:0BcAAOSwiDFYQKkW&vxp=mtr

Buy both. The shop manual is model specific,but the motors manual will give you a better basic understanding of how things work and how to fix them. Best money you will ever spend. Do NOT buy a Chilton or other manual. Only the shop manual and the Motors Auto Repair Manual.

[Brad47]

Thanks so much knuckleharley

i guess my first step is to figure out why starting in first is so hard be it a worn clutch  or somthing else and carry on from there ? I'll let you know what I fined 

cheers Brad

[1949 Wraith]

If  all your gears grind a bit you might need to adjust your clutch clearance. But it sounds like you might already have more than enough because of the slipping problem with your clutch maybe warping?

Worn shifting linkage could be an issue, does it feel smooth and tight? I personally never have an issue with grinding in 1st (as long as I am not moving) but shifting up to 2nd can cause a slight grind if I am not careful. I can get around that by dropping the shift lever a little bit towards 3rd before shifting up to 2nd. I also find that the transmission does not like to be down shifted into 2nd at higher speeds.

As Knuckleharley say I also highly recommend the Motors book, covers everything on the road in NA from 1935 to early 50's.

Since you have a Canadian car, model specific Canadian shop manuals are best. Be careful when ordering parts especially for the drive train. Dodge of that era in the US had the 230 and Plymouth in the US had the 218, but it is still different that the Canadian 218 engine. I have problems some times even ordering parts with Canadian suppliers. I have a 1949 Dodge Special Deluxe (model in US, 1949 Wayfarer), they tell me they have no reference for my car. Then I tell them to look up the 1949 Plymouth Special Deluxe, they can find that model.

[Brad47]

Hard to say if it's smooth and tight this car is a whole different animal for me ! The shifter feels ok but I have nothing to compare it too . My biggest problem is starting out in first gear it's like starting out in a higher gear , so I'll do as you say and get a good manual and go from there !

thanks for all the good info love this site !!

[dpollo]

As noted earlier, there should be no problem starting off in first or even second gear.  Check your brakes and also the differential ratio.  Stock was most commonly 3.9 to 1.  As for the Dr's observation on his friend's car, he should have been advised to read his operator's manual where he would have learned that as long as the car is in motion, there is no need to select first gear.  In fact, on level ground there is no need to use first gear at all.  These cars were built in an era when High gear performance was considered important.  The transmission's second gear from 41 to 56 was sufficiently low to allow second gear starts.

I see that you are in BC.  depending on where you are, I may be able to put you in touch with owners of similar cars.  Send me a PM.

[Don Coatney]

I realize this is not a fluid drive equipped car but it has been my experience in owning and driving both a fluid drive non fluid drive car that down shifting when rounding corners is not required. These engines have a lot of torque at low RPM's. In my non fluid drive car I frequently turned sharp low speed corners leaving the transmission in high (non overdrive) gear with no problems. In my fluid drive car I frequently do not downshift at stop signs and take off from a dead stop in top gear.

[greg g]

As to adjusting the clutch.  Yes there is an adjustment.  The rod that goes to the throw our bearing lever is threaded, to allow for extending it to put more movement into the distance the bearing moves and there for how much it separates the friction disc from the flywheel.  First thing you need to determine is how much free play you have in the clutch pedal travel at the top of the stroke, before it starts to move the rods. Should be an inch give or take a fraction.  Once that is determined you can then adjust the rod to the throw out and make it incrementally longer till you achieve  proper operation.  Can you shift from neutral to reverse or low gear standing still with no grind?  If not, can you shift from neutral to second then to first with no grind.  If yes, then your adjustment is still short.  What happens is that engaging second momentarily engages the second synchro, which stops the input shaft from rotating, which then allows low to be selected without a grind.  When the rod to the throw out is adjusted too short, it allows the clutch to drag against the flywheel spinning the input shaft and since low is not synched the input gear is turning while trying to snuddle up with one that is stationary.  

Now as far as your gears are concerned, how fast can you go on level ground in low without feeling "I gotta shift!!!!"? How fast in second?  With my car with 4.11 rear gears. First is pretty much done at 25/30 and max in second is 45.  This with 225 75 15 tires. And last question.  Are you sure you have low gear selected when you try those up hill starts?

[greg g]

At to adjusting the clutch.  Yes there is an adjustment.  The rod that goes to the throw our bearing lever is threaded, to allow for extending it to put more movement into the distance the bearing moves and there for how much it separates the friction disc from the flywheel.  First thing you need to determine is how much free play you have in the clutch pedal travel at the top of the stroke, before it starts to move the rods. Should be an inch give or take a fraction.  Once that is determined you can then adjust the rod to the throw out and make it incrementally longer till you achieve  proper operation.  Can you shift from neutral to reverse or low gear standing still with no grind?  If not, can you shift from neutral to second then to first with no grind.  If yes, then your adjustment is still short.  What happens is that engaging second momentarily engages the second synchro, which stops the input shaft from rotating, which then allows low to be selected without a grind.  When the rod to the throw out is adjusted too short, it allows the clutch to drag against the flywheel spinning the input shaft and since low is not synched the input gear is turning while trying to snuddle up with one that is stationary.  

Now as far as your gears are concerned, how fast can you go on level ground in low without feeling "I gotta shift!!!!"? How fast in second?  With my car with 4.11 rear gears. First is pretty much done at 25/30 and max in second is 45.  This with 225 75 15 tires. And last question.  Are you sure you have low gear selected when you try those up hill starts?

[Brad47]

Hi Greg g from what I can tell it's in first tried second it's definitely taller and third is fine . Once the car is moving it's like a boss everything normal , from what I can tell it's just starting out shutters like it going to stall like I'm in a higher gear if that makes sense ?

ps thanks for the awesome write up on the clutch adjustment !!

cheers

[knuckleharley]

22 minutes ago, Brad47 said:

Hi Greg g from what I can tell it's in first tried second it's definitely taller and third is fine . Once the car is moving it's like a boss everything normal , from what I can tell it's just starting out shutters like it going to stall like I'm in a higher gear if that makes sense ?

ps thanks for the awesome write up on the clutch adjustment !!

cheers

 

"Shudders"????? If you mentioned that before,I missed it. Now it definitely sounds like a clutch problem. Maybe even a warped clutch.

BUT........,MAKE SURE YOU CHECK ALL THE ENGINE AND TRANSMISSION MOUNTS BEFORE YOU PULL THE TRANSMISSION.

[Brad47]

Shudders might not be the right word sorry but it definitely is not right , I've owned standard cars and trucks my whole life and this one does not feel right somthing is up and I'm just going to have to go over it and figure it out !

thanks for all the suggestions everyone has giving me some good ideas to thing to start checking !

 

[greg g]

Sounds like a corrupted friction disc from oil due to a leaking main seal.  There is a sheet metal inspection cover on the bottom of the bell housing that will give you a look at your flywheel and clutch assembly. An oil soaked friction disc will play hell with clutch engagement and over all feel of operation.

[Brad47]

Thanks Greg I'm going to jack that thing up hopefully Monday and have a look in there !

Cheers